Why isn't Europe as crazy about guns as US?

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HTFOff

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2013
1,292
56
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It's so sad though; the Supreme Court has ruled that there is such a thing as "a militia of one."

Recent landmark decisions by the courts didn't magically grant everyday citizens something they haven't already had for hundreds of years prior.

Seriously, you sound fairly young. That's not to insult. Read and study a little bit about your country.
 
May 16, 2000
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The post to which I replied quoted a text which denoted the national guard a militia. This militia is well regulated, as they regularly exercise and demonstrate their ability to fire a weapon, without being in active military service.

"Every able bodied man above the age of 17" is not a well regulated militia. This group of people is neither equipped, nor generally capable of using a weapon. Nor are they organized in any way. A militia is always organized, even if only loosely. But to function, a chain of command is required even in militias, as is a supply and support structure. The latter may be more ad hoc, but that is what makes the difference between a militia and an armed mob.

The French Resistance's armed forces were a classical militia. But, these were a select group of people that were at least loosely organized, and had some amount of training.

All I wanted to say, was that the word militia used in the quoted text, is not identical to the idea of a well regulated militia, as used in the Second Amendment, in opposition to the link made by whoever posted that quote.

That portion of the usc was added to coincide with the creation of the National Guard. Historically such things are considered 'standing army', not militia.

"Every able bodied man...etc" is THE classical definition of militia. Militias equip themselves...it's inherent in the idea of militia. Every person is capable of firing a gun. It's not rocket science. Militias are only organized when deployed. Otherwise there is only what the individuals choose to pursue.

Again, 'well regulated militia' as used in the 2nd Amendment means ONLY that an able bodied male knows how to shoot and so forth. It doesn't matter what you want it to mean today, the original meaning has been researched and supported beyond contention.
 

xaeniac

Golden Member
Feb 4, 2005
1,641
14
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The founding founders enshrined the right to bear a few muskets - to deter British soldiers. They did not enshrine Ak-47s, sniper rifles, and other modern weapons capable of massacring a town full of people.

You think the founding fathers were stupid? Why would they just not change the wording to single shot devices that must be loaded.
 
May 16, 2000
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As someone who spends about 2 months a year in Germany, all I can say is that I feel great when I'm there and that I can walk at midnight through any German city and always feel safe. Conversely, a lot of Germans are afraid to visit the US because of the right/wrong perception about the ubiquity of weapons: in cars, homes, schools, etc.

The Germans have a higher standard of living than Americans and the lack of guns and overall feeling of safety certainly plays a part in this.

Germans also know they started two World Wars. There is an innate desire to simply avoid such violence. This also applies to TV and movie media; European films glorify love and sex whereas American films glorify violence and war.

Interestingly Germany has roughly twice the overall crime of the US now (6.5 mil per year versus 11.8 mil per year with 1/4 the population). Of course, what counts as a crime and quality of reporting can also play into that.
 
May 16, 2000
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this. This. THIS!

It's so sad though; the Supreme Court has ruled that there is such a thing as "a militia of one."

That's because he's factually wrong, and so are you. That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion of how you WISH things were, but it doesn't impact how things have been for hundreds/thousands of years, nor how they are today. So enjoy your opinion, and know that its baseless and not shared by experts in the various related fields.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
I know it sounds silly to say but if there were no guns here there would be no gun violence. Duh.

But there are so many guns in the U.S. that we'll always have this problem, unless every gun owner suddenly became a responsible, law-abiding citizen. Crime exists. Guns make crime even more dangerous and deadly. They also make crime easier to perpetrate.

Even if we stopped manufacturing them now, they would still be easily available well beyond our lifetimes. But that's never going to happen.

It's too late for us, but Canada, save yourselves (from the NRA)!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nra-involved-in-gun-registry-debate-1.923766

The National Rifle Association, a powerful lobbying group in the United States that advocates fewer gun controls, has been actively involved in trying to abolish Canada's long-gun registry for more than a decade, CBC News has learned.


Edit: Added 'They also make crime easier to perpetrate.'
 
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May 16, 2000
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I know it sounds silly to say but if there were no guns here there would be no gun violence. Duh.

But there are so many guns in the U.S. that we'll always have this problem, unless every gun owner suddenly became a responsible, law-abiding citizen. Crime exists. Guns make crime even more dangerous and deadly.

Even if we stopped manufacturing them now, they would still be easily available well beyond our lifetimes. But that's never going to happen.

It's too late for us, but Canada, save yourselves (from the NRA)!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nra-involved-in-gun-registry-debate-1.923766

Of course, you're wrong on this as well. If the mere existence/presence/saturation of firearms made more crime, or made existing crime more dangerous, this would be evidenced by high correlations between the two. Yet this is not the case. In fact, there is a slight NEGATIVE correlation between the two when reviewing data from 170+ countries. This is why the NAS, CDC, Harvard and various other studies by people who know more about these things than you refute your position.

Further, the NRA, while often stupid and wrong-headed, really has very little to do with anything. They have a reasonably small membership and other groups (SAF, CCRKBA, SCCC, etc) have far better track records with regards to firearm rights.

Sure if there were no guns, nor ability to make more, there'd be no more gun crime. However there'd also be no gun defense, making it a wash. There would still be crime, however...and war, and all the other negatives. It's merely the method that would shift. We'd go from being able to mount an equal defense to once again being at the mercy of the young and strong.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
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Because they aren't allowed to be. The citizens let the government trample them, just as they always have.

Citizens being armed keeps the government afraid of us. Without that, we would have even fewer rights left than we already do. I can tell you from personal experience that there are lots of country boys waiting for the government to try and take their guns.

If the government ever did try, it would be the Revolution all over again.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Of course, you're wrong on this as well. If the mere existence/presence/saturation of firearms made more crime, or made existing crime more dangerous, this would be evidenced by high correlations between the two. Yet this is not the case. In fact, there is a slight NEGATIVE correlation between the two when reviewing data from 170+ countries. This is why the NAS, CDC, Harvard and various other studies by people who know more about these things than you refute your position.

Further, the NRA, while often stupid and wrong-headed, really has very little to do with anything. They have a reasonably small membership and other groups (SAF, CCRKBA, SCCC, etc) have far better track records with regards to firearm rights.

Sure if there were no guns, nor ability to make more, there'd be no more gun crime. However there'd also be no gun defense, making it a wash. There would still be crime, however...and war, and all the other negatives. It's merely the method that would shift. We'd go from being able to mount an equal defense to once again being at the mercy of the young and strong.

Guns also make crime MUCH easier to perpetrate.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
I know it sounds silly to say but if there were no guns here there would be no gun violence. Duh.

But there are so many guns in the U.S. that we'll always have this problem, unless every gun owner suddenly became a responsible, law-abiding citizen. Crime exists. Guns make crime even more dangerous and deadly.

Even if we stopped manufacturing them now, they would still be easily available well beyond our lifetimes. But that's never going to happen.

It's too late for us, but Canada, save yourselves (from the NRA)!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nra-involved-in-gun-registry-debate-1.923766

Canada dropped the gun registry two years ago, the data hasn't been destroyed for Quebec as it's still in courts
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
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Guns also make crime MUCH easier to perpetrate.

Again, totally false, as refuted by the numbers. While causation is always hard to determine, there would have to be SOME correlation to have any chance of it being so. There is none. Remember that crime, overall, is down tremendously from previous centuries before firearms were ever invented.

With all the technical advances, chemical and biological atrocities, and so much more, this is still the safest time ever.
 
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Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
If the government ever did try, it would be the Revolution all over again.

The gov would just flick a couple of switches and all your revolutionaries wouldn't be able to communicate, they would break down into thousands of separate groups who would fight each other for power. Then the gov would just do clean up
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
The gov would just flick a couple of switches and all your revolutionaries wouldn't be able to communicate, they would break down into thousands of separate groups who would fight each other for power. Then the gov would just do clean up

...maybe

I'm not a militia guy. Don't know anyone who is. I just know lots of people with lots of guns. Some of them might have some plans.

My point remains. Our guns keep the government afraid of us. England can trample all over its citizens because they don't fear them.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,818
10,359
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Thanks for that. Bringing down the gun registry is not all the NRA wants though. They represent manufacturers at their trade shows. They want guns out there in mass quantities.

with 300+ million firearms in the US...i'd say guns already in mass quantities.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Thanks for that. Bringing down the gun registry is not all the NRA wants though. They represent manufacturers at their trade shows. They want guns out there in mass quantities.

no

You really don't know what the NRA is about do you? They are another corrupt political body with no interest other than money and power.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
Citizens being armed keeps the government afraid of us. Without that, we would have even fewer rights left than we already do. I can tell you from personal experience that there are lots of country boys waiting for the government to try and take their guns.

If the government ever did try, it would be the Revolution all over again.

That's not what typically happens though. How many times in the last hundred years, have you seen a government, that didn't have at least minority support in the populace? At least in states that started out as democratic?

What you'll get in lieu of the revolution, would be more like a second secession. And then you'd have neighbors shooting at one another across makeshift barricades, while military and national guard forces take sides and add a full blown military conflict into the mix. If the military completely sides with one side, there will not be a war, but merely a slaughter.

And if you truly want to goose the government, it'd not with guns that you do it. A simple strike suffices. The French government is more scared of the unions, than it is of giving guns to everyone in the country.

More important than any personal gun ownership, is a military that is diverse, and in close relation with the public that it is supposed to protect. That is the idea of the militia, more than anything else. An army of the people, for the people. As long as your military will side with both sides of a conflict, at least there will be a balanced slaughter, instead of just the extermination of the trouble makers.

I think this fear of the government, that many in the US have, is on one side due to the strong bipartisanship, where there is no real alternative, and no escaping one of two ways of government. On the other side, the US is geographically large, and the federal government always appears to be a distant entity, that should have no say in most matters, as it's too far away.
People are far less worried about a state government going rogue.


As for relative violence ratings: I'm not sure you can really compare it, as most of Europe is settled much more densely than the US, which usually leads to more potential for violent crime. I wonder how immigration and organized crime figure into those statistics as well, as Europe is a more convenient immigration target, and immigration often does bring with it a number of social problems that can often end in violence.

And with regard to the militia issue: Why is it acceptable to stick to the 300 year old definition of militia (which apparently meant nothing beyond "some guy(s)"), but not the 300 year old definition of arm?

It's all a bit confusing. And I'm still not personally convinced, that in modern times a well regulated militia remains a requirement for a free state. But maybe, just as I use reasonable definitions for "militia", my definition of a "free state" is also "wrong".
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
3
81
A debate without end...

It's only a debate when multiple sides present legitimate arguments. This is just you posting one illogical, ignorant inaccuracy after another, being definitively debunked by facts and evidence, then ignoring your shame and repeating the process.

Are you seriously not embarrassed that every single statement you've made has been proven factually or logically incorrect? This is why I think you must have a learning disability or some other mental problem, or must be a very young child. Normal adults are capable of reading charts and graphs, analyzing statistics, and learning about history.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Recent landmark decisions by the courts didn't magically grant everyday citizens something they haven't already had for hundreds of years prior.

Seriously, you sound fairly young. That's not to insult. Read and study a little bit about your country.

I was thinking of the DC decision in 2007:

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/second-amendment.php

On November 20, 2007, the Supreme Court granted (PDF) the petition for certiorari. The Court framed the question for which it granted review as follows: “Whether the following provisions – D.C. Code §§ 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 – violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”
The briefs on the merits by the District of Columbia and respondent Dick Anthony Heller, as well as amicus briefs by some 67 “friends of the court,” have been collected here.
In its June 26 decision, a 5-4 majority of the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, and that the D.C. provisions banning handguns and requiring firearms in the home disassembled or locked violate this right

I could accuse you of not reading this the way I read it and therefore being immature, but I won't.
 
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