Why isn't Europe as crazy about guns as US?

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rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Sorry, but you're wrong. While we today use regulated to mean that, at the time of writing the Constitution 'well regulated' (as a clause or phrase) meant practiced, or competent. Look it up, it's a well researched point that isn't in dispute among experts on either side of the debate.

Are we being serious again?

WelshBloke lives in England so his English isn't all that great.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Regulated just means subject to rules and regulations. It has nothing to do with skill.

The conscripted army were called regulars back in those days. They were highly trained as compared to the local farmer with a hunting rifle.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
Sorry, but you're wrong. While we today use regulated to mean that, at the time of writing the Constitution 'well regulated' (as a clause or phrase) meant practiced, or competent. Look it up, it's a well researched point that isn't in dispute among experts on either side of the debate.

Sorry forgot we were talking ancient documents.
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
3
81
Sorry, but you're wrong. While we today use regulated to mean that, at the time of writing the Constitution 'well regulated' (as a clause or phrase) meant practiced, or competent. Look it up, it's a well researched point that isn't in dispute among experts on either side of the debate.

Here's a collection of some other example uses of the phrase:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
 

PRAISE__SATAN

Member
Jan 3, 2014
39
0
0
Back in the day it was easier to get a gun here in Finland. Pretty much any 15-year old or older law-abiding citizen could get a small pistol or a hunting rifle legally. Then a couple of idiots decided to massacre fellow pupils in a couple of school shootings and there was moral panic. Now you need to be 18 to get any gun or 20 for pistols/revolvers, also you need to have been practising shooting as a hobby for two years to get a permit for a pistol. To prove that you've been shooting as a hobby for two years you basically need to be a member of a shooting club which goes against the constitution imho, but what do I know. Because of school shootings useless laws were made. These new laws were critisised a lot when they were being introduced but the politicians had to change the laws so it appears that they've actually done something useful in response to the school shootings. All this to get re-elected. It's just stupid. I don't know how hard it is to get a permit for an assault rifle but that too is probably thougher nowadays.

Legally owned guns are very rarely used in crimes. There's no need to try to ban guns.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Back in the day it was easier to get a gun here in Finland. Pretty much any 15-year old or older law-abiding citizen could get a small pistol or a hunting rifle legally. Then a couple of idiots decided to massacre fellow pupils in a couple of school shootings and there was moral panic. Now you need to be 18 to get any gun or 20 for pistols/revolvers, also you need to have been practising shooting as a hobby for two years to get a permit for a pistol. To prove that you've been shooting as a hobby for two years you basically need to be a member of a shooting club which goes against the constitution imho, but what do I know. Because of school shootings useless laws were made. These new laws were critisised a lot when they were being introduced but the politicians had to change the laws so it appears that they've actually done something useful in response to the school shootings. All this to get re-elected. It's just stupid. I don't know how hard it is to get a permit for an assault rifle but that too is probably thougher nowadays.

Legally owned guns are very rarely used in crimes. There's no need to try to ban guns.

Finland enjoys a relatively low gun homicide rate vs. all homicides (14% vs: much more for the U.S).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Finland#Guns


"Guns Main article: Gun politics in Finland
Finns have the fourth most firearms in the world per capita (right after United States, Yemen, Switzerland) totalling 1.62 million registered privately owned firearms and 10,000–20,000 unregistered firearms.[2] Gun related homicides are rare, comprising 14% of the total number of homicides,[3] which is comparatively low.
Guns and other weapons are tightly regulated. One must separately apply for a gun license, which cannot be issued for "self defense reasons". Even other weapons, such as pepper sprays, are regulated. Carrying weapons, including guns and knives, in public is not allowed."


Less unregistered firearms = less gun crime? Here illegal guns are everywhere, and you don't even need to register. Lax gun control sure does help against crime, as does the availability! ;-)
 

mikeford

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2001
5,670
160
106
When you have to trek through snow half the year that limits the season for all kinds of crimes.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
Considering that our greatest potential enemy right now (in my and many other's opinion) is the US government itself, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact it makes the 2nd Amendment that much more important.

Well, read up on my argument, that a state does not exist without a government, and therefore the wording of the second amendment never was made to be a defense against internal threats to freedom. For that the political means which the constitution grants are sufficient. A constitution that encourages civil war is a bit pointless.

If you're worried about the government, get into politics, and not into a gun shop.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Well, read up on my argument, that a state does not exist without a government, and therefore the wording of the second amendment never was made to be a defense against internal threats to freedom. For that the political means which the constitution grants are sufficient. A constitution that encourages civil war is a bit pointless.

If you're worried about the government, get into politics, and not into a gun shop.

are you familiar with how the US came to be?
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
The conscripted army were called regulars back in those days. They were highly trained as compared to the local farmer with a hunting rifle.

This is exactly what I was talking about a few pages back.
Thank you for bringing this great example to the fore.
Well-regulated does mean practiced.
Switzerland for example has a large militia, because every able bodied man is drafted for shooting exercises every so often. They're not part of the standing army, in that being a soldier isn't their job, but they receive regular military training, even if at intervals that are spaced quite wide apart, they have known-good equipment and while not trained to the high standard of a professional solider have a certain level of aptitude which is guaranteed, and know to follow orders, and are organized and registered and draft-able.

and rudeguy: are you familiar with the American constitution and current American government? Hint: It's not a foreign-monarchy-appointed executive government. Instead it's a domestically appointed, voted for government. It has large public support. If you want to change it, run for office. Not for the hills.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
This is exactly what I was talking about a few pages back.
Thank you for bringing this great example to the fore.
Well-regulated does mean practiced.
Switzerland for example has a large militia, because every able bodied man is drafted for shooting exercises every so often. They're not part of the standing army, in that being a soldier isn't their job, but they receive regular military training, even if at intervals that are spaced quite wide apart, they have known-good equipment and while not trained to the high standard of a professional solider have a certain level of aptitude which is guaranteed, and know to follow orders, and are organized and registered and draft-able.

and rudeguy: are you familiar with the American constitution and current American government? Hint: It's not a foreign-monarchy-appointed executive government. Instead it's a domestically appointed, voted for government. It has large public support. If you want to change it, run for office. Not for the hills.

apparently I am more familiar with it than you are.

The current government has nothing to do with what was designed. It has been corrupted to the point of uselessness. We have a president who believes he is the ultimate authority. He edges closer to tyranny every day. We have a congress who does nothing but spend our money. Now that they have already spent all of that, they are spending to a point where our economy will collapse.

Elections are won by dollars. Our votes are bought and paid for with money stolen from hard working Americans. It is no longer about who will do the best job, who will represent the people the best. Its now about who can collect the most dollars and who they will send future dollars to. Have you seen how many millionaires and billionaires live around DC? A city that has no major companies? Those people are getting rich off of my tax dollars. Our tax dollars.

The rebellion that started the Revolution did not start because there was a king. It started because the people were being taxed unfairly. It started because the government stopped considering the rights of the people. It started because the government no longer cared what its laws did to the people.

I'll keep my guns. You hug your liberal rags that tell you that everything is going to be OK. We'll see who ends up fairing better.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
The rebellion that started the Revolution did not start because there was a king. It started because the people were being taxed unfairly. It started because the government stopped considering the rights of the people. It started because the government no longer cared what its laws did to the people.

The rebellion started because a few rich individuals objected to being taxed.

It had nothing to do with actions carried out against 'the people'.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
The rebellion started because a few rich individuals objected to being taxed.

It had nothing to do with actions carried out against 'the people'.

orly?

So 3-5 people started the revolution? Care to name them?
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
wtf 11 pages already.... anyway in case it has not already been mentioned:

the ONE European country who did not get invaded by one side or the other during WW2 has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. This is a country who does not have a standing army but instead relies on able bodied citizens being trained as militia and keeping guns at home.

Switzerland.

Only recently has the wave of socialism started to creep in and even this bastion of liberty and freedom may soon be overwhelmed by the hordes of nanny state pushers
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
I'll keep my guns. You hug your liberal rags that tell you that everything is going to be OK. We'll see who ends up fairing better.

You should watch the movie Braveheart. It's not a movie about whether you will kill for your freedom, but whether you are willing to die for it.

A few French immigrants in Paris, a few years back were willing to die for their freedom. It sparked the greatest riots in the last decade in a democratic country, and prompted a state of national emergency.


Anyway, if you think people are paid to vote - run for office. The people cannot all be paid off. Found a party which stands against corruption. But don't hide scared from the government with a gun under your pillow, for when they come for you. That's not how democracy works.
If you want to do a better job than a politician, you will have to become one. That's how it works.

As for the rich ruling the nation - that's always the case. They are the most interested in a government, as the government is the guarantor of order, and without order, rich people have the most to lose. And if bribes are cheaper than taxes, well, then who's going to pay taxes?
 
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