Originally posted by: mellowfellow0o0
It's powerful, its customizable, it's as affordable as it can get, but until it makes program installs and unistalls a matter of point, click, click, click, it will NEVER work in the avg home.
Eliminate TAR installs. Come up with a standard application installer that works across all major distributions with no deviations, include dependencies in the installs, and the most drastic of all. Do something about the file system structure. There is a lack of standards when it comes to where to put different files during installation. It is much easier to understand "Program Files" or "Windows".
Originally posted by: TrevorRC
The average joe at home isn't going to contribute to open source software. They don't have the skills necessary to do so.
Until Linux is accessible (read: Easy to install and use) like Windows is, it won't take off for the mainstream user.
So? Users have no need to mess around in there.Have you ever looked inside C:\WINDOWS and C:\WINDOWS\System32? It's a complete mess in there. You have both executables and libraries jammed inside the same folder along with seemingly random bitmaps of wallpapers and screensavers.
User's don't care about this. They just need a place to dump their docs, their pics, their music and whatever else. Abstracting the file system for users is a much better alternative than a mess of directories, no matter how organized you think they are.In Linux, you have a nice organized file system structure with the executables in the bin directories, libraries in the lib directories, image files in primarily the icons/pixmaps directories, etc.
User's don't care about this. They just need a place to dump their docs, their pics, their music and whatever else. Abstracting the file system for users is a much better alternative than a mess of directories, no matter how organized you think they are.
lolOriginally posted by: Cerb
Hurd is the future. It will remain the future, too, just as it was the future when Linux started .
I don't see them ever charging per cpu. Their product is support, not an operating system. They will charge based on how much support they promise and/or deliver.No, Linux is Free, and will be forever. You can pay for support and get it to cost you. They could even make it per CPU. They don't largely because they need to be cost-competitive with MS.<br
Linux is free and will be forever.
Sure, but windows is also creeping in, one disenchanted, overpaying old-unix user/business at a time.Linux is here to stay, but it is creeping in, one disenchanted Windows user (including network admins) or business at a time.
Originally posted by: Chosonman
Linux is the future.
Linux is free and will be forever.
Linux is supported by the open source community.
Linux is secure.
Linux is not Microsoft.
Linux is the future.
In the server market continues to outpace Microsoft in server deployments. The desktop arena continues to see spectacular growth, especially with the exploding popularity of Ubuntu Linux in just the past year and a half. Linux will be used as the main operating system in just about every devices including PDA's, Cell phones, pocket PC's, notebooks and desktops, and media centers.
Linux is free and will be forever.
Unlike Windows, Linux is free and under the General Public License (GPL) should remain free forever no matter how many times you install it. Windows charges for every computer and every processor their operating system is installed on. So if you replace your CPU under their licencing agreement you will have to pay for a new copy of Windows every time.
Linux is supported by the open source community.
Linux is supported by thousands and thousands of individuals who are committed to and skilled in their work. As an open source project code is updated constantly and fixes are developed quickly. No more waiting months for security patches and updates.
Linux is secure.
As of right now there are more virus written for Windows than any other operating system. And with help of the open source community, patches and fixes for future virus for Linux can be resolved as soon as they are written. Not weeks or months.
Linux is not Microsoft.
Linux is not Microsoft. You don't need to listen to the Microsoft start up theme music, watch the Microsoft logo as Windows loads, or use the Internet Explorer to view your files, or have microft software bundled with your OS. Or believe that everything Microsoft has handed you in the PC world is the way it should be. You can used tabbed folder view instead of pressing "back back back" to navigate through your folders. You can customize your splash screen to replace you Windows loading logo. You can make your OS look like a Mac if you like.
And now Linux is supported....
Adobe has created a Linux division, most hardward OEM's bundle Linux drivers with their products and as of now Ubuntu supports the vast majority of hardware pluggins right out of the box. Believe it or not Linux is here to stay.
Please contribute as you wish to this thread..
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Installation of software is a lesson in what frustration means.
Right, because Synaptic is so hard to use. I'd much rather download random shareware filled with spyware and install that!
Frankly I haven't clue one what that is, I do know that I am much more surprised when an intall just works on Linux than when I have to drop to a command line and figure out what switches I need to add.
Yes there are different schemes to help overcome this but they vary for each distribution.
There are differing schemes for operating a car, but people cope with that.
Yeah but not many people would put up with having to put in new seats just to install a stereo. I too can use obtuse analogies
All modern windows applications install with a few clicks of a mouse.
And yet people still manage to do it incorrectly. There is nothing that will help those people that aren't willing to learn.
Stereo-typical elitist reply. Most people are perfectly capable of installing most software. If there is a problem it comes from the fact that they install the wrong stuff.
Linux so far as as usability goes, is in it's DOS/Win 3.1 days.
While I think that's a totally incorrect statement, Windows is just now catching up to Linux in the reliability department. Both systems have different focuses on their development, MS is just recently working on reliability and security and Gnome/KDE are working on usabilility now. And the best part is that MS changes their UI around with every release making their users relearn large portions of the system, so what better chance to jump ship than when Vista ships and does it all again?
Ok, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing I really can't tell.
It's powerful, its customizable, it's as affordable as it can get, but until it makes program installs and unistalls a matter of point, click, click, click, it will NEVER work in the avg home.
Eliminate TAR installs. Come up with a standard application installer that works across all major distributions with no deviations, include dependencies in the installs, and the most drastic of all. Do something about the file system structure. There is a lack of standards when it comes to where to put different files during installation. It is much easier to understand "Program Files" or "Windows".
Installation of software on Linux is many magnitudes simpler than it is on Windows, no one uses tarballs anymore except as a last resort. If your distribution doesn't have a piece of software packaged ask them to package it and/or ask the developer of the software to provide packages for your distribution. Do you complain about Windows because you can't install iDVD?
And the filesytem layout will not change, there's no reason a user should ever even see anything other than what's in their home directory.
If someone wants a piece of software, they want it NOW. Same reason why store sales still top web sales. Instant gratification. It's the American way. I sure as heck don't want to wait while someone may or may not package something so that I don't have to deal with the problems of software installation on my OS.
Now I haven't tried a desktop version of Linux in over six months, but I know ther were several applications that did not have installers for Mandrake or Suse(the last two I played with) and I had to use Tars
Like it or not Linux is going to have to dumb it's self down if it ever wants to reach the mass market in the home. The best solution I can see is a shell that hides all the arcane aspects and Unix heritage. Makes the file structure look simple and understandable to the barely computer literate. It would hide those options that are advanced but still make them easily uncoverable to those who desire them.
You just described Gnome, have you tried it lately?
Ok that only helps with the casual interactions. Prefer KDE anyway. Not the underlying problems.
Some of this is starting and I mean just starting to form, but too much of the Linux community does not understand nor care to understand that the common person does not want to jump through hoops to use an OS. They focus on trying to make it look as much like the popular OSes as possible but don't try to make it function like them.
We don't want it to function like them, emulating the competition (if you consider it a competition) doesn't help anything. IMO most things works better on Linux than they do on Windows, sure right now some of them require a little extra work to get them going but once they're setup they run forever without any intervention.
For instance, the latest Epiphany packages include support for the Avahi ZeroConf stuff. What this means is that if a device supports ZeroConf and publishes bookmarks they'll automatically appear in Epiphany's bookmark list, does anything like that exist on Windows? How convenient would it be if you could turn on a new SoHo Router and have it's admin page automatically bookmarked for you?
Don't want to emulate the compitition? ROFLMAO. No, they don't want to do that. Linux GUI's look and act nothing like they are trying to emulate Mac or Windows. Yes I know Mac got the idea from Xerox and MS got it from Mac. Doesn't change the fact that Linux tries to emulate them. BTW I don't think this is a bad thing.
Also, why would I want anyone adding bookmarks automatically? I get pissed when software installs do this without asking.
Then they decided that the server need a point and click interface and an easier to user management console. They chose JAVA. WTF. The slowest and most hardware intensive programming language I have ever seen in my life.
That choice also made it so that their admin tools could be run on Linux. No, it wasn't officially supported, but it worked and was significantly faster than running them on Windows.
Still not even close to NWAdmin32
Really they left us no choice. We could no longer use hardware cost savings as an excuse to stay with Novell. We needed the true IP support of a next gen NOS. Managment loved the $$$ savings with Novell, but once that was gone. The allure of MS was too much for them and they made us change over.
Money savings with Novell? What crack are you smoking? NetWare itself is expensive as hell and their user licensing is comparable if not worse than that of MS but the kicker is that Novell actually enforced their licensing. If you bought 100 user licenses for your NDS tree only 100 people could login, not like Windows where the system allowed as many logins as it could handle no matter what number of licenses you told it you had. And on top of it all, the admin tools are irrelevant performance-wise, you never admin a NetWare box from it's console so the fact that X, Java, etc were on the box didn't matter one bit.
Do you even read what you are replying to? I was refering to the cost of server hardware. BTW no, Novell Licensing was actually cheaper than MS. Not by much, I didn't deal with that end of it too much but I do remember my boss talking about that being a consideration. Don't know if it was because we were an educational institution or whatever. I do remember with 4.11 we only purchased the connection licenses that were needed for each server and no more.
Also adding java components to the Novell OS slowed it down horribly whether or not you allowed Console One to load on the server. So, ya it did matter
Anyway my point is Linux needs to adapt to the needs of the common Joe, to make it into the home, but it needs to do so with out losing the things that make it great. Maybe I am a a glass half full kinda guy, but I don't think that will happen.
Then help make it happen, Linux is a community effort. Sitting on the sidelines and saying "You guys need to fix this" doesn't cut it.
This is simply an idiotic statement. If you had any real insite you would have something smart to say rather than a smart ass response.Originally posted by: rbrandon
troll much?
Originally posted by: mellowfellow0o0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Installation of software is a lesson in what frustration means.
Right, because Synaptic is so hard to use. I'd much rather download random shareware filled with spyware and install that!
Frankly I haven't clue one what that is, I do know that I am much more surprised when an intall just works on Linux than when I have to drop to a command line and figure out what switches I need to add.
If you don't know what synaptic package manager is you shouldn't be writing in this thread.
No, his insight is clear. This is trollish.Originally posted by: Chosonman
This is simply an idiotic statement. If you had any real insite you would have something smart to say rather than a smart ass response.Originally posted by: rbrandon
troll much?
Originally posted by: Chosonman
Linux is the future.
Linux is free and will be forever.
Linux is supported by the open source community.
Linux is secure.
Linux is not Microsoft.
Linux is the future.
In the server market continues to outpace Microsoft in server deployments. The desktop arena continues to see spectacular growth, especially with the exploding popularity of Ubuntu Linux in just the past year and a half. Linux will be used as the main operating system in just about every devices including PDA's, Cell phones, pocket PC's, notebooks and desktops, and media centers.
Linux is free and will be forever.
Unlike Windows, Linux is free and under the General Public License (GPL) should remain free forever no matter how many times you install it. Windows charges for every computer and every processor their operating system is installed on. So if you replace your CPU under their licencing agreement you will have to pay for a new copy of Windows every time.
Linux is supported by the open source community.
Linux is supported by thousands and thousands of individuals who are committed to and skilled in their work. As an open source project code is updated constantly and fixes are developed quickly. No more waiting months for security patches and updates.
Linux is secure.
As of right now there are more virus written for Windows than any other operating system. And with help of the open source community, patches and fixes for future virus for Linux can be resolved as soon as they are written. Not weeks or months.
Linux is not Microsoft.
Linux is not Microsoft. You don't need to listen to the Microsoft start up theme music, watch the Microsoft logo as Windows loads, or use the Internet Explorer to view your files, or have microft software bundled with your OS. Or believe that everything Microsoft has handed you in the PC world is the way it should be. You can used tabbed folder view instead of pressing "back back back" to navigate through your folders. You can customize your splash screen to replace you Windows loading logo. You can make your OS look like a Mac if you like.
And now Linux is supported....
Adobe has created a Linux division, most hardward OEM's bundle Linux drivers with their products and as of now Ubuntu supports the vast majority of hardware pluggins right out of the box. Believe it or not Linux is here to stay.
Please contribute as you wish to this thread..
Frankly I haven't clue one what that is, I do know that I am much more surprised when an intall just works on Linux than when I have to drop to a command line and figure out what switches I need to add.
Yeah but not many people would put up with having to put in new seats just to install a stereo. I too can use obtuse analogies
Stereo-typical elitist reply. Most people are perfectly capable of installing most software. If there is a problem it comes from the fact that they install the wrong stuff.
Ok, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing I really can't tell.
If someone wants a piece of software, they want it NOW. Same reason why store sales still top web sales. Instant gratification. It's the American way. I sure as heck don't want to wait while someone may or may not package something so that I don't have to deal with the problems of software installation on my OS.
Now I haven't tried a desktop version of Linux in over six months, but I know ther were several applications that did not have installers for Mandrake or Suse(the last two I played with) and I had to use Tars
Ok that only helps with the casual interactions. Prefer KDE anyway. Not the underlying problems.
Don't want to emulate the compitition? ROFLMAO. No, they don't want to do that. Linux GUI's look and act nothing like they are trying to emulate Mac or Windows. Yes I know Mac got the idea from Xerox and MS got it from Mac. Doesn't change the fact that Linux tries to emulate them. BTW I don't think this is a bad thing.
Also, why would I want anyone adding bookmarks automatically? I get pissed when software installs do this without asking.
Still not even close to NWAdmin32
Do you even read what you are replying to? I was refering to the cost of server hardware. BTW no, Novell Licensing was actually cheaper than MS. Not by much, I didn't deal with that end of it too much but I do remember my boss talking about that being a consideration. Don't know if it was because we were an educational institution or whatever. I do remember with 4.11 we only purchased the connection licenses that were needed for each server and no more.
Also adding java components to the Novell OS slowed it down horribly whether or not you allowed Console One to load on the server. So, ya it did matter
I would love to help but unfortunatly I am not a great programmer.
Originally posted by: gsellis
No, his insight is clear. This is trollish.
Or you Vista? No?Originally posted by: Chosonman
Originally posted by: gsellis
No, his insight is clear. This is trollish.
Answer me this. Have you installed and used the latest version of Ubuntu, Fedora Core, or Suse? No? I thought so.
That you just did this as a trollish religious exercise. Dude, it is just software.Originally posted by: Chosonman
Re-enforce what?
Originally posted by: gsellis
That you just did this as a trollish religious exercise. Dude, it is just software.Originally posted by: Chosonman
Re-enforce what?
It's FREE!Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
Or you Vista? No?
Where can that be purchased?
Originally posted by: gsellis
It's FREE!Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
Or you Vista? No?
Where can that be purchased?
CTP man...Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
It's FREE!Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
Or you Vista? No?
Where can that be purchased?
Link to Microsoft's Vista giveaway?
Originally posted by: gsellis
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
It's FREE!Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: gsellis
Or you Vista? No?
Where can that be purchased?
Link to Microsoft's Vista giveaway?