- Jun 10, 2004
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I am posting this because I do not feel that Mormons (LDS) can call themselves Christians without tarnishing and distorting what I as a orthodox Christian believe and practice. Too many threads have exploded into flame wars and name-calling, so I will make a disclaimer first:
1. I am not saying that Mormons are wrong or that their religion is worthless - I am saying that as a Christian I do not believe them to be Christians.
2. I am posting this in OT because I will not ever post again in P&N where it is more likely to become a flame-fest. Also, this has no political slant, only a religious one. Until a 'Religion' forum is created, off-topic will have to do.
3. I am posting what I believe to be intelligent, well-argued material in defense of orthodox Christianity, and would appreciate if all responses were equally eloquent and civil.
4. I am a moderate Protestant.
5. I believe in what is stated in the Nicene Creed:
Now, the beginning of a very long post:
Source:Christian Apologetics (Defense)
In closing, I would like to reemphasize many points:
1) I am posting this SOLELY to emphasize that Mormons (LDS) do not believe in the same God or Jesus Christ that I as an orthodox Christian believe. Their beliefs are not those of orthodox Christianity (that is, the beliefs of the Roman Catholic, Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, Episcopalian, and other orthodox denominations.)
2) I am using the work of Christian Apologists who are dedicated to preserving the integrity and soundness of the historical Christian faith.
3) I am NOT bashing Mormons or saying that they are wrong/dumb/insert-other-word-here.
4) Many Mormons, if not most, are very good and kind people - however, their beliefs are completely different from mine.
5) Before you go bash me or other Christians as Bush-supporters or "neo-cons" you should realize that those of us who are focused on a Christ-centered, God-first worldview do not support either Bush or the neo-conservatives, as neither group can claim to represent Christianity. Both the Democrats AND the Republicans are as far from the teachings of Christ as any other political group. In this past election, the Republicans represented Imperialism, Plutocracy, and Capital Punishment versus Imperialism, Plutocracy, and Abortion/Gay Marriage for the Democrats. Both groups are far from exhibiting Christian beliefs and behavior.
For a better idea of why many Christians did not vote in the last election (including myself and my parents), view this article
I hope I have enlightened you all considering the tenets of orthodox Christianity which focuses on a Christ-centered worldview, and that I have made a distinction between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity. Thank you for reading, and please keep discussion civil.
1. I am not saying that Mormons are wrong or that their religion is worthless - I am saying that as a Christian I do not believe them to be Christians.
2. I am posting this in OT because I will not ever post again in P&N where it is more likely to become a flame-fest. Also, this has no political slant, only a religious one. Until a 'Religion' forum is created, off-topic will have to do.
3. I am posting what I believe to be intelligent, well-argued material in defense of orthodox Christianity, and would appreciate if all responses were equally eloquent and civil.
4. I am a moderate Protestant.
5. I believe in what is stated in the Nicene Creed:
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Now, the beginning of a very long post:
A Cult of Christianity
The Mormon Church - officially, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint - considers itself not just a Christian denomination, but rather the only true expression of Christianity.
However, the history, theology and practices of Mormonism show this religious movement to be outside of orthodox Christianity.
Mormons believe that their church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and administer the ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has power to save" (Mormon Doctrine; 1977 ed, p. 136).
Mormons either deny of pervert every essential doctrine of historic Christianity, including the uniqueness of God, the virgin birth, the Trinity, the authority of Scripture (by relegating it to a position below their other sacred writings), and salvation by grace through faith.
Source: Charts of Cults, Sects, & Religious MovementsOff-site Link by H. Wayne House, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 2000, page 58.
Individuals who, while claiming to be Christians, reject one of more central (key) doctrines of the Christian faith are considered heretics. Groups which reject such doctrines while claiming to represent Christianity, are considered cults of Christianity.
A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.
Source: "Unmasking The Cults"Off-site Link by Alan Gomes. See also: Cult - A Theological Definition
Thus, while Mormons profess to be Christians, they are outside orthodox Christianity and the Mormon Church is considered to be, theologically, a cult of Christianity.
Various legitimate Christian denomonations have made statements to this effect. See, for example, these news reports:
Delegates to the United Methodists' national convention meeting in Cleveland on Wednesday said the LDS Church "does not fit within the bounds of the historic, apostolic tradition of Christian faith," and that Mormons who convert to Methodism need to be re-baptized.
The convention approved a study document written by two Salt Lake City ministers, the Rev. Brian Hare-Diggs of First United Methodist Church and the Rev. Jennifer Hare-Diggs of Centenary United Methodist Church.
The nine-page paper, passed by the Methodist General Conference without floor discussion, spells out theological differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the United Methodist Church.
It says Mormonism has "some radically differing doctrine on such matters of belief as the nature and being of God; the nature, origin, and purpose of Jesus Christ; and the nature and way of salvation."
The Methodists said Mormonism incorporates a "gendered, married and procreating god" with "a body of flesh and bones," and has a theology that "more closely resembles a tri-theistic or possibly a polytheistic faith" than monotheism -- worship of the one God.
The Methodists also objected that "the Jesus of Mormonism is not co-eternal with the Father and of one substance with the Father" and that Mormons add other scriptures to the Bible.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) and Southern Baptist Convention have issued similar assessments of Mormon doctrine.
Source: Methodists Say LDS Doctrine Not Christian, Salt Lake Tribune, May 11, 2000
The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.
The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."
The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.
It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
[...]
Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."
In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
[...]
In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.
The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."
Source: Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms, Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001
It should be noted that while the claims of Mormonism must be firmly rejected, Christians should reach out to Mormons with the "gentleness and respect" 1 Peter 3:15Off-site Link calls for, "in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth..." (2 Tim. 2:25)
The Jesus of the Mormon Church
Since the teachings and practices of the Mormon Church contradict those of historic, Biblical Christianity, Mormons can not be considered to be Christians, nor can the Mormon Church be described as a Christian denomination.
A Christian is a disciple, a follower, of Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible - not the 'Jesus' created by Mormonism.
Naturally, the current president of the Mormon Church disagrees:
When asked about groups that say Mormons are not Christians, [LDS Church] President Hinckley said, "I can never understand it. The very name of the Savior is in the name of the church. . . . The New Testament is a fundamental scripture for us. We have in addition to that the Book of Mormon, which becomes another witness for Jesus Christ."
Source: President Hinckley fields common queries, Deseret News, Mar. 9, 2000
It is impossible to know whether Mr. Hinckley's puzzlement was real of faked, but his statement is disingenuous at best.
Just like attaching a Roll Royce logo to a Volkswagen does not make the latter a Rolls Royce, using the name of Jesus Christ does not make Mormonism "Christian." Suggesting the Mormon Jesus is "Christian" is, in fact, as dishonest as selling a counterfeit watch as a "Rolex." After all, the "Jesus" created by the Mormon Church is far different from - and incompatible with - the biblical Jesus Christ:
The Mormon Jesus Christ
A created being: the elder brother of Lucifer
Common (one of many gods) and, in some ways, of minor important in the largerMormon cosmology
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the Father (Adam or Elohim) and Mary, thus not through a true virgin birth
Once sinful and imperfect
Earned his own salvation (exaltation, godhood)
A married polygamist?
The Biblical Jesus Christ
Uncreated God
Unique (the Second Person of the one and only Godhead) and of supreme importance through time, eternity and all creation
Conceived by the Holy Spirit, who supermaturally "overshadowed" Mary, thus a true virgin birth
Eternally sinless and perfect
As God, never required salvation
An unmarried monogamist
Mormons not only claim to be Christians, but to be the only true Christians. According to them, the early Christian church went through an apostacy, lost the true teaching of God, and is built on a Bible that, according to them, is translated incorrectly and is missing many books.
Interestingly, while LDS Church president Gordon Hinckley assures the press that "[t]he New Testament is a fundamental scripture for us," (Note 1) he fails to point out the Mormons' bias against the Bible.
Article 8 of the Mormon Articles of Faith (Note 2) says, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly." This approach allows Mormons to ignore key Bible Scriptures which refute Mormon doctrines. Bible verses used to counter Mormon teachings are brushed off in favor of passages from the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures (as well as ongoing revelation that often contradicts previous LDS Church teachings).
It should be noted that the LDS Church has published its own version of the King James Bible, incorporating footnotes explaining what corrections from Joseph Smith's "inspired version" of the Bible (a version full of errors and plagiarized material) should be taken into account.
However, in spite of their efforts at revisionism, Mormons have not been able to support their claims. On the contrary. While Mormon allegations regarding the Bible and the course of Christianity are refuted by history, archeology, and other sciences, the scriptures of the Mormon church are problematic at every turn. Far from showing us so-called 'restored truth,' they are testimonies to the deceptive nature of Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon
Consider, for example, the problems surrounding the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith said:
I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book upon the earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
Source: Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Deseret Books, Salt Lake City, UT, 1978, 4:461
However, over 9,000 corrections in grammar and spelling (as well as changes distorting the original text) later, that claim can be considered ludicrous.
But there's more.
At best, the Book of Mormon was written using occult methods. It is also known for - among other things - its plagiarism of the King James Bible (using Victorian english in what is supposed to be an American translation of an ancient, historical record), the absence of archeological and historical records supporting the book's story, as well as an array of anachronisms.
Mormons currently have their hands full trying to defend the Book of Mormon against scientific facts that disprove it:
Plant geneticist Simon Southerton was a Mormon bishop in Brisbane, Australia, when he woke up the morning of Aug. 3, 1998, to the shattering conclusion that his knowledge of science made it impossible for him to believe any longer in the Book of Mormon.
Two years later he started writing "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon ChurchOff-site Link," published by Signature Books and due in stores next month. Along the way, he found a world of scholarship that has led him to conclude The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints belief is changing, but not through prophesy and revelation.
Rather, Southerton sees a behind-the-scenes revolution led by a small group of Brigham Young University scholars and their critics who are reinterpreting fundamental teachings of the Book of Mormon in light of DNA research findings. Along the way, he says, these apologist scholars, with the apparent blessing of church leadership, are contradicting church teachings about the origins of American Indians and Polynesians.
"You've got Mormon apologists in their own publications rejecting what prophets have been saying for decades. This becomes very troubling for ordinary members of the church," Southerton said.
Source: Science challenges Mormon beliefs, Associated Press, July 24, 2004
And surprisingly, despite Smith's claim that the Book of Mormon is "the keystone of our religion," it is noted for its absence of key Mormon doctrines.
(Continued for many more pages)
Source:Christian Apologetics (Defense)
In closing, I would like to reemphasize many points:
1) I am posting this SOLELY to emphasize that Mormons (LDS) do not believe in the same God or Jesus Christ that I as an orthodox Christian believe. Their beliefs are not those of orthodox Christianity (that is, the beliefs of the Roman Catholic, Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, Episcopalian, and other orthodox denominations.)
2) I am using the work of Christian Apologists who are dedicated to preserving the integrity and soundness of the historical Christian faith.
3) I am NOT bashing Mormons or saying that they are wrong/dumb/insert-other-word-here.
4) Many Mormons, if not most, are very good and kind people - however, their beliefs are completely different from mine.
5) Before you go bash me or other Christians as Bush-supporters or "neo-cons" you should realize that those of us who are focused on a Christ-centered, God-first worldview do not support either Bush or the neo-conservatives, as neither group can claim to represent Christianity. Both the Democrats AND the Republicans are as far from the teachings of Christ as any other political group. In this past election, the Republicans represented Imperialism, Plutocracy, and Capital Punishment versus Imperialism, Plutocracy, and Abortion/Gay Marriage for the Democrats. Both groups are far from exhibiting Christian beliefs and behavior.
For a better idea of why many Christians did not vote in the last election (including myself and my parents), view this article
I hope I have enlightened you all considering the tenets of orthodox Christianity which focuses on a Christ-centered worldview, and that I have made a distinction between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity. Thank you for reading, and please keep discussion civil.