Why Mormons are not Christian:

[Kanalua]

Are there any other Mormons in this forum? How was church today? Mine was good...wish it didn't start at 8:30 am...but it sure beats the old 2:30p-5:30p schedule we had last year...get out of church and it was DARK outside!!! at least in the winter time...

 

[dugweb]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: StormRider
I think the world would be a more harmonious place if the different branches of Christianity would accept all the branches as Christians. What's wrong with just saying "they are a different branch of Christianity than I am" -- instead of saying "They are not real Christians?"

For me, a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Son of God and as far as I understand it, that's what Mormons are.

Same with Islam. It's weird how Sunnis don't consider Shiites to be Muslims.

If you would read parts of the post... ah, I'll just copy and paste again

The Mormon Jesus Christ
A created being: the elder brother of Lucifer
Common (one of many gods) and, in some ways, of minor important in the largerMormon cosmology
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the Father (Adam or Elohim) and Mary, thus not through a true virgin birth
Once sinful and imperfect
Earned his own salvation (exaltation, godhood)
A married polygamist?

The Biblical Jesus Christ
Uncreated God
Unique (the Second Person of the one and only Godhead) and of supreme importance through time, eternity and all creation
Conceived by the Holy Spirit, who supermaturally "overshadowed" Mary, thus a true virgin birth
Eternally sinless and perfect
As God, never required salvation
An unmarried monogamist

As you can see, the "Jesus" the Mormons believe in is completely different from the one that I and other orthodox Christians believe in. It would certainly be harmonious for us to be religiously tolerant, but we cannot accept certain sects as Christian because their beliefs and doctrines are radically different and nowhere near the same.

i guess the question that comes to my mind is, why should your definition of christianity be the authority?

Because it's the Bible-based one

The Bible is the final authority for me in all points of doctrine and practice, and I believe it to be the inspired Word of God.

That's an outrite lie, and you know it. The Nicene Creed is your final authority. You revere that creed just as much as you do the NT if not more, even though the doctrine expressed within the creed is the product of debate, and compromising between many different branches of the early church.

The nicene creed raises a lot of red flags in my opinion.

 

[Juno]

...

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618
The Church does have authority as stated in Mathew 16:18:

Mathew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

do we have evidence that the catholic church was the one referred to in that passage? also, if the catholic church is the one to have constructed the bible as we know it today... doesn't this seem a little convenient?

What I believe is the core problem is the definition of "Church". In the Bible, it makes it clear that the Church is the "body of believers" - that is, the gathering of those who believe in Christ to worship and glorify God. As such, it could be interpreted any number of ways, but I believe it to mean all those who are faithful to the original tenets of Christianity as begun in the first century AD.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Kanalua
oh yeah, Am I a Christian, of course! it IS the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints...no creed or anyone else can tell me any different...so...deal with it...

I respect your beliefs as exactly that, your beliefs. But as you may notice if you read my post, we believe in a different Jesus and a different God - your beliefs are not compatible with mine. Just a tiny bit proves that:

The Mormon Jesus Christ
A created being: the elder brother of Lucifer
Common (one of many gods) and, in some ways, of minor important in the largerMormon cosmology
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the Father (Adam or Elohim) and Mary, thus not through a true virgin birth
Once sinful and imperfect
Earned his own salvation (exaltation, godhood)
A married polygamist?

The Biblical Jesus Christ
Uncreated God
Unique (the Second Person of the one and only Godhead) and of supreme importance through time, eternity and all creation
Conceived by the Holy Spirit, who supermaturally "overshadowed" Mary, thus a true virgin birth
Eternally sinless and perfect
As God, never required salvation
An unmarried monogamist

This IS my way of dealing with it. My belief convicts me and demands that I tell the world out there that I am different and set apart. I am different from Mormons (LDS) in every belief and every point of doctrine and practice. There is no common ground, save perhaps in the name of Jesus Christ. But as I pointed out, the "Jesus" we believe in is different from the one you proclaim to believe in.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: dugweb

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: StormRider
I think the world would be a more harmonious place if the different branches of Christianity would accept all the branches as Christians. What's wrong with just saying "they are a different branch of Christianity than I am" -- instead of saying "They are not real Christians?"

For me, a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Son of God and as far as I understand it, that's what Mormons are.

Same with Islam. It's weird how Sunnis don't consider Shiites to be Muslims.

If you would read parts of the post... ah, I'll just copy and paste again

The Mormon Jesus Christ
A created being: the elder brother of Lucifer
Common (one of many gods) and, in some ways, of minor important in the largerMormon cosmology
Conceived by a physical sex act between God the Father (Adam or Elohim) and Mary, thus not through a true virgin birth
Once sinful and imperfect
Earned his own salvation (exaltation, godhood)
A married polygamist?

The Biblical Jesus Christ
Uncreated God
Unique (the Second Person of the one and only Godhead) and of supreme importance through time, eternity and all creation
Conceived by the Holy Spirit, who supermaturally "overshadowed" Mary, thus a true virgin birth
Eternally sinless and perfect
As God, never required salvation
An unmarried monogamist

As you can see, the "Jesus" the Mormons believe in is completely different from the one that I and other orthodox Christians believe in. It would certainly be harmonious for us to be religiously tolerant, but we cannot accept certain sects as Christian because their beliefs and doctrines are radically different and nowhere near the same.

i guess the question that comes to my mind is, why should your definition of christianity be the authority?

Because it's the Bible-based one

The Bible is the final authority for me in all points of doctrine and practice, and I believe it to be the inspired Word of God.

That's an outrite lie, and you know it. The Nicene Creed is your final authority. You revere that creed just as much as you do the NT if not more, even though the doctrine expressed within the creed is the product of debate, and compromising between many different branches of the early church.

The nicene creed raises a lot of red flags in my opinion.

Quite the contrary my friend. The Nicene Creed is an example that compactly portrays the core beliefs of orthodox Christianity. The Bible IS the final authority for me as a Church of Christ-affiliated Protestant. Perhaps you should know more about me before you condemn me

 

[Pastore]

Question about Catholacism... How can it be considered Christianity when you are required to pray to a false God, Mary.

 

[IEC]

"That's an outrite lie, and you know it. The Nicene Creed is your final authority. You revere that creed just as much as you do the NT if not more, even though the doctrine expressed within the creed is the product of debate, and compromising between many different branches of the early church.

The nicene creed raises a lot of red flags in my opinion."

Oh and another thing: I do not revere that creed more than the Bible. This is the order: God first, Scripture next, then all else. I will agree that the Nicene creed raises issues with some denominations, but if you will reference one of my other posts you will see exactly what I believe in (core beliefs):

Originally posted by: ariafrost
As long as one who calls himself Christian believes in One God embodied in the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus and his Sonship, Jesus as Savior and Lord, virgin birth, the Resurrection, Baptism, and salvation by grace through faith, I will consider him a Christian brother.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Beast1284
Question about Catholacism... How can it be considered Christianity when you are required to pray to a false God, Mary.

I'm outside of all your religious idiocy, and I can tell you that you're an idiot. Just because Pastor Jacob at the First Baptist Church of Podunkville tells you that Catholics worship Mary doesn't make it so. Catholics aren't required to speak to Mary at all if they don't want to.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Beast1284
Question about Catholacism... How can it be considered Christianity when you are required to pray to a false God, Mary.

Ya see that? That was a can of worms. And not only did you just open it, but you ripped the fvcking thing apart.

 

[AdamMT1618]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618
The Church does have authority as stated in Mathew 16:18:

Mathew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

do we have evidence that the catholic church was the one referred to in that passage? also, if the catholic church is the one to have constructed the bible as we know it today... doesn't this seem a little convenient?

Oral Tradition and Scripture.

Here is the list of Popes tracing back to St. Peter:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618
The Church does have authority as stated in Mathew 16:18:

Mathew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

do we have evidence that the catholic church was the one referred to in that passage? also, if the catholic church is the one to have constructed the bible as we know it today... doesn't this seem a little convenient?

Oral Traditional and Scripture.

Here is the list of Popes tracing back to St. Peter:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

The Pope is yet another thing that is greatly disputed by Christians about Catholicism.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Beast1284
Question about Catholacism... How can it be considered Christianity when you are required to pray to a false God, Mary.

It would help if 1) you could spell Catholicism correctly, 2) you didn't generalize about Catholicism, after all, there are about 1.2 billion Catholics in the world..., and 3) Catholicism does not require that you deify or pray to Mary. Some Catholics revere her as the mother of Jesus (although admittedly perhaps a bit too much) - as long as they keep in mind that God is ultimately the answerer of prayers, it is fine with me.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Beast1284
Question about Catholacism... How can it be considered Christianity when you are required to pray to a false God, Mary.

I'm outside of all your religious idiocy, and I can tell you that you're an idiot. Just because Pastor Jacob at the First Baptist Church of Podunkville tells you that Catholics worship Mary doesn't make it so. Catholics aren't required to speak to Mary at all if they don't want to.

As much as I cringe reading that, it does have the valid point of showing that Catholics are not Mary-worshippers, and for that I thank you.

 

[FreshFish]

Let's get to the real question: who's right?

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618
The Church does have authority as stated in Mathew 16:18:

Mathew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

do we have evidence that the catholic church was the one referred to in that passage? also, if the catholic church is the one to have constructed the bible as we know it today... doesn't this seem a little convenient?

Oral Traditional and Scripture.

Here is the list of Popes tracing back to St. Peter:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

The Pope is yet another thing that is greatly disputed by Christians about Catholicism.

Yes, I would have to agree with that statement. As a Protestant I don't recognize any final authority but God, but I do respect (some) of the Popes, such as the late Pope John Paul II. There is an ancient basis for Popes with the original patriarchs of the church, but there is also an ancient basis for having elders as well - it's more of a different way of practicing rather than a different belief system.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: FreshFish
Let's get to the real question: who's right?

Heh, God of course

And if God as in YHWH is correct, it then logically follows that orthodox Christianity is "right".

But I will not tell Mormons that they are wrong. They have their own beliefs and it is fine with me as long as they do not identify themselves as "Christians" because that designation puts them on an equal basis with orthodox Christianity and confuses the heck out of non-religious people.

 

[JoeKing]

Protestants :roll:

 

[msparish]

Ariafrost, as a former mormon turned athiest...your understanding (and the site you quote) of mormon theology is very limited. Especially your coception of the mormon jesus christ. In mormon belief, jesus was perfect and never sinned. The non-virgin birth you refer to deals with very old statement primarily aimed at stating that god the father is the father of jesus and not the holy ghost. It was through the power of the holy ghost that the conception took place. Mormon cannon and scripture explicitly states this. There is no doctrine that jesus was married...some have speculated though, as have some historians.

Before you start talking, make sure what you have some knowledge about the subject you are talking about please. You state that mormons are not christian, when the only thing you attempt to describe is that mormon's are not orthodox. Regardless of what you want to say, a christian is someone who believes that jesus is the savior and attempts to emulate his teachings.

Nevertheless, even if I did believe in god, don't get the impression that I would still be a part of the mormon church. Quite simply, I don't believe in it either. That does not change the fact that several of your views and sources are wrong about it.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Protestants :roll:

Hah. Well I'm heading back to church for some youth group activities, so I'll come back to respond to any other questions/posts in a few hours. Don't make it a flame-fest while I'm gone or you'll burn in eternal flames... :evil:

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: msparish
Ariafrost, as a former mormon turned athiest...your understanding (and the site you quote) of mormon theology is very limited. Especially your coception of the mormon jesus christ. In mormon belief, jesus was perfect and never sinned. The non-virgin birth you refer to deals with very old statement primarily aimed at stating that god the father is the father of jesus and not the holy ghost. It was through the power of the holy ghost that the conception took place. Mormon cannon and scripture explicitly states this. There is no doctrine that jesus was married...some have speculated though, as have some historians.

Before you start talking, make sure what you have some knowledge about the subject you are talking about please. You state that mormons are not christian, when the only thing you attempt to describe is that mormon's are not orthodox. Regardless of what you want to say, a christian is someone who believes that jesus is the savior and attempts to emulate his teachings.

Nevertheless, even if I did believe in god, don't get the impression that I would still be a part of the mormon church. Quite simply, I don't believe in it either. That does not change the fact that several of your views and sources are wrong about it.

There is one simple fact which turns what you have said: Mormons believe in salvation by works, not by faith, and thus do not truly believe that Jesus is their Saviour. Therefore they cannot be called Christians. Nice try.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: FreshFish
Let's get to the real question: who's right?

Heh, God of course

And if God as in YHWH is correct, it then logically follows that orthodox Christianity is "right".

But I will not tell Mormons that they are wrong. They have their own beliefs and it is fine with me as long as they do not identify themselves as "Christians" because that designation puts them on an equal basis with orthodox Christianity and confuses the heck out of non-religious people.

I'm a non-religious person and I'm actually more concerned with what someone is like as a person rather than to which faith they ascribe. You're not doing very well. :frown:

 

[FreshFish]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: FreshFish
Let's get to the real question: who's right?

Heh, God of course

And if God as in YHWH is correct, it then logically follows that orthodox Christianity is "right".

But I will not tell Mormons that they are wrong. They have their own beliefs and it is fine with me as long as they do not identify themselves as "Christians" because that designation puts them on an equal basis with orthodox Christianity and confuses the heck out of non-religious people.

I'm not religious and I have never thought of Mormons as Christians, of course I have never really thought about it. Honestly, most of the time I hear discussion of Mormons it is bashing them or somehow making fun of their beliefs. I am not saying that you are doing that, but it's obvious that you don't want to be associated with them. Can't we all just get along!?

 

[Praetor]

cliffs?

 

[msparish]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: msparish
Ariafrost, as a former mormon turned athiest...your understanding (and the site you quote) of mormon theology is very limited. Especially your coception of the mormon jesus christ. In mormon belief, jesus was perfect and never sinned. The non-virgin birth you refer to deals with very old statement primarily aimed at stating that god the father is the father of jesus and not the holy ghost. It was through the power of the holy ghost that the conception took place. Mormon cannon and scripture explicitly states this. There is no doctrine that jesus was married...some have speculated though, as have some historians.

Before you start talking, make sure what you have some knowledge about the subject you are talking about please. You state that mormons are not christian, when the only thing you attempt to describe is that mormon's are not orthodox. Regardless of what you want to say, a christian is someone who believes that jesus is the savior and attempts to emulate his teachings.

Nevertheless, even if I did believe in god, don't get the impression that I would still be a part of the mormon church. Quite simply, I don't believe in it either. That does not change the fact that several of your views and sources are wrong about it.

There is one simple fact which turns what you have said: Mormons believe in salvation by works, not by faith, and thus do not truly believe that Jesus is their Saviour. Therefore they cannot be called Christians. Nice try.

That is also incorrect. mormons believe that no amount of works can save you. They do believe they need to do their best, just as your very own bible says, "faith without works is dead." Mormon theology explicitly states that it is through the grace of jesus that men are saved...men are incapable of saving themselves.