why not tax net worth in addition to income?

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Ever heard of property tax?

Net worth is a figment of imagination the value of things like stocks and real estate keep changing and can disappear quite quickly. This is why stocks are not taxed until you sell them. Property is not worth anything unless you can sell it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,501
136
Mostly wrong on all counts. A non-global wealth tax would "work" but only if you didn't care that those impacted most were the middle class without the resources to avoid it.

Which would make it... not work.

Secondly, "demand for wealth" is inelastic, you probably meant demand for assets within the country with the tax (unless you have the stupid "worldwide income" tax system the U.S. uses).

I did mean demand for assets, yes.

And third, it wouldn't be easy - haven't you learned from countless examples that taxes are never paid exactly as you hoped, either in amount or who pays them?

I was unaware that the standard for policy success was "things happen exactly as planned".
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
Terrible idea. How about we just close the big loopholes in the tax code that we already have? No more $1 wages with $100 million stock options for CEOs that they can then place overseas and avoid taxes on. Make the punishment for not paying taxes and illegaly hiding funds in offshore accounts expatriation. Quit giving huge tax breaks to large corporations that are bringing in billions of profit per year. Quit allowing people huge rebates so they get more out of the system than they put in. No deductions for corporate jets and $50,000 parties for employees.

I think, left or right, we can all agree that tax loopholes are fucking almost everyone in this country.
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
How about we drastically increase the estate tax? Why should the children of earners get rich without lifting a finger to earn it themselves? Obviously we don't want to punish success, but what's successful about someone inheriting the wealth of their parents' efforts? You want to do something to eliminate concentration of wealth, get rid of dynastic inheritance strategies that keep wealth in a single family for generations.
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
How about we drastically increase the estate tax? Why should the children of earners get rich without lifting a finger to earn it themselves? Obviously we don't want to punish success, but what's successful about someone inheriting the wealth of their parents' efforts? You want to do something to eliminate concentration of wealth, get rid of dynastic inheritance strategies that keep wealth in a single family for generations.

At the same time, why punish those who have worked hard and can ensure everyone in their family is taken care of? I don't like it any more than you do, but I also don't like the idea of the government claiming my money just because I died - that is for my family.

I am a relatively high earner. There are a lot of people like me out there that save and invest and do what we can to make a good living. I pay a lot in taxes though, because our fucking tax brackets suck, and I don't have enough wealth to hire an army of attorneys and CPAs to shuffle funds around to decrease tax liability.

Close tax loopholes, especially for corporations, and we won't need to increase estate taxes.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
How about we drastically increase the estate tax? Why should the children of earners get rich without lifting a finger to earn it themselves? Obviously we don't want to punish success, but what's successful about someone inheriting the wealth of their parents' efforts? You want to do something to eliminate concentration of wealth, get rid of dynastic inheritance strategies that keep wealth in a single family for generations.

:thumbsup:

After all of this rich really are the best and brightest. One would expect that their children would also be gifted, especially with all the advantage with having rich parents brings. Should we as a society want to encourage our best and brightest to contribute instead of living off dynastic wealth?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
At the same time, why punish those who have worked hard and can ensure everyone in their family is taken care of? I don't like it any more than you do, but I also don't like the idea of the government claiming my money just because I died - that is for my family.

I am a relatively high earner. There are a lot of people like me out there that save and invest and do what we can to make a good living. I pay a lot in taxes though, because our fucking tax brackets suck, and I don't have enough wealth to hire an army of attorneys and CPAs to shuffle funds around to decrease tax liability.

Close tax loopholes, especially for corporations, and we won't need to increase estate taxes.

With a higher estate tax you can have a lower income tax.

Would you rather tax people who are actually earning their money, or those who are inheriting it?
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
With a higher estate tax you can have a lower income tax.

Would you rather tax people who are actually earning their money, or those who are inheriting it?

I want to be taxed, one time, on they money that I am earning. I don't want to be hit because I saved money and died and now my kids pay an estate tax.

I want there to be no tax loopholes. I don't like the shell games they play. I don't like an entire industry dedicated to shuffling money around, forming new organizations, charities, corporations, LLCs and everything else in an attempt to get around what is owed.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Terrible idea. How about we just close the big loopholes in the tax code that we already have? No more $1 wages with $100 million stock options for CEOs that they can then place overseas and avoid taxes on. Make the punishment for not paying taxes and illegaly hiding funds in offshore accounts expatriation. Quit giving huge tax breaks to large corporations that are bringing in billions of profit per year. Quit allowing people huge rebates so they get more out of the system than they put in. No deductions for corporate jets and $50,000 parties for employees. I think, left or right, we can all agree that tax loopholes are fucking almost everyone in this country.
Then there would be more inflation. If we're going to have the personal income tax, then wages and salaries are the only income that should be taxed in my opinion and there should actually be more deductions (all medical expenses should be deductible and it is expensive for retirees to continue to invest because of taxes) with lower marginal rates across the board.

Wall Street is neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by cg taxes because they cause inflation
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,651
132
106
The growth of income inequality of the last 5 years is primarily being driven by the Federal Reserve.

You see the rich get their loans at 0.25% interest, that hedge funds can get use to gobble up large swathes of land and property and then charge us a much higher number on a mortgage, say 4-5%. You know what the difference between those two numbers are? It's called arbitrage, a basic concept of economics, and arbitrage enabled by the Fed is the primary driver of income inequality. Oh and what if you default on your mortgage you wonder, isn't the difference in rates because of risk the investors take? Well the Fed buys mortgage-backed securities. It has the rich covered. No risk profit, with none of the profits coming from increased productivity.

How does this eliminate the risk in your scenario?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Terrible idea. How about we just close the big loopholes in the tax code that we already have? No more $1 wages with $100 million stock options for CEOs that they can then place overseas and avoid taxes on. Make the punishment for not paying taxes and illegaly hiding funds in offshore accounts expatriation. Quit giving huge tax breaks to large corporations that are bringing in billions of profit per year. Quit allowing people huge rebates so they get more out of the system than they put in. No deductions for corporate jets and $50,000 parties for employees.

I think, left or right, we can all agree that tax loopholes are fucking almost everyone in this country.

:thumbsup:

This, keep the brackets (with different percentages), get rid of deductions, credits, etc. I.e you make $100,000, you owe $15K, period. You make $1M, you owe 200K, period. No games, no loopholes, no BS.

Companies would be a little harder because you have to let them deduct costs from revenue, but it seems like you could much more easily define what a cost is and what can be deducted.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
I want to be taxed, one time, on they money that I am earning. I don't want to be hit because I saved money and died and now my kids pay an estate tax.

I want there to be no tax loopholes. I don't like the shell games they play. I don't like an entire industry dedicated to shuffling money around, forming new organizations, charities, corporations, LLCs and everything else in an attempt to get around what is owed.

All money is taxed multiple times. I get taxed on my salary. I buy stuff with that money, which gives the store a profit (theoretically), they pay tax on that profit, etc. Me buying something also pays for their employees, which then pay money on that salary.

Inheritance is just another form of income to the person receiving, so why shouldn't it be taxed like other income?
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,662
4,136
136
Terrible idea. How about we just close the big loopholes in the tax code that we already have? No more $1 wages with $100 million stock options for CEOs that they can then place overseas and avoid taxes on. Make the punishment for not paying taxes and illegaly hiding funds in offshore accounts expatriation. Quit giving huge tax breaks to large corporations that are bringing in billions of profit per year. Quit allowing people huge rebates so they get more out of the system than they put in. No deductions for corporate jets and $50,000 parties for employees.

I think, left or right, we can all agree that tax loopholes are fucking almost everyone in this country.

This. Easy to do as well.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
All money is taxed multiple times. I get taxed on my salary. I buy stuff with that money, which gives the store a profit (theoretically), they pay tax on that profit, etc. Me buying something also pays for their employees, which then pay money on that salary.

Inheritance is just another form of income to the person receiving, so why shouldn't it be taxed like other income?

Money paid for salary or goods isn't the same as taxing someone's assets which may not even be liquid. Champions of the estate tax keep bringing up the Paris Hilton example, why is it so much better of a public policy outcome for the rich to overspend on their children while they're alive for the sole reason of avoiding a tax? Is Paris Hilton really hurt by accelerating the transfer of assets to her even quicker so as to avoid a tax hit caused solely by death?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Money paid for salary or goods isn't the same as taxing someone's assets which may not even be liquid. Champions of the estate tax keep bringing up the Paris Hilton example, why is it so much better of a public policy outcome for the rich to overspend on their children while they're alive for the sole reason of avoiding a tax? Is Paris Hilton really hurt by accelerating the transfer of assets to her even quicker so as to avoid a tax hit caused solely by death?

Which is why there is such a thing called a gift tax to address the situation.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
At the same time, why punish those who have worked hard and can ensure everyone in their family is taken care of? I don't like it any more than you do, but I also don't like the idea of the government claiming my money just because I died - that is for my family.

I am a relatively high earner. There are a lot of people like me out there that save and invest and do what we can to make a good living. I pay a lot in taxes though, because our fucking tax brackets suck, and I don't have enough wealth to hire an army of attorneys and CPAs to shuffle funds around to decrease tax liability.

Close tax loopholes, especially for corporations, and we won't need to increase estate taxes.

Congratulations on being a high earner. My complaint about the estate tax is for the truly wealthy who can build up portfolios into the hundred million or billion dollar range. Serious question; do you believe that your hard work entitles your descendants to a lifetime of leisure forever? I don't. I think if you've built a sizable estate, you should be able to leave a portion to your offspring or next-of-kin, but I would hope you would have also instilled in them the same drive and ambition that helped you achieve success yourself so that they can continue in that tradition and earn their own success, not simply have it handed to them through genetic lottery. Anyone who is in favor of a meritocracy (which seems like the most just system) should be in favor of an estate tax that ensures that some people aren't starting out the marathon with a 26.1 mile head start. As Warren Buffett put it, "I want to give my kids just enough so that they would feel that they could do anything, but not so much that they would feel like doing nothing."
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
Congratulations on being a high earner. My complaint about the estate tax is for the truly wealthy who can build up portfolios into the hundred million or billion dollar range. Serious question; do you believe that your hard work entitles your descendants to a lifetime of leisure forever? I don't. I think if you've built a sizable estate, you should be able to leave a portion to your offspring or next-of-kin, but I would hope you would have also instilled in them the same drive and ambition that helped you achieve success yourself so that they can continue in that tradition and earn their own success, not simply have it handed to them through genetic lottery. Anyone who is in favor of a meritocracy (which seems like the most just system) should be in favor of an estate tax that ensures that some people aren't starting out the marathon with a 26.1 mile head start. As Warren Buffett put it, "I want to give my kids just enough so that they would feel that they could do anything, but not so much that they would feel like doing nothing."

I understand and somewhat agree with what you are saying. It does suck that some people win the genetic lottery (overall, anyone born in U.S.A. really has). At the same time, I can't justify taking away someone else's money - money they saved, earnings from risk that they took, their luck - because I don't want it to be handed down to their kids. We already taxed them once, or multiple times, on it and additional taxes seems unfair. Maybe if there weren't so many corporate loopholes then they wouldn't have the opportunity to amass hundreds of millions of dollars.


Yes, I wish that money would be distributed.
Yes, I realize that people earning less than me want my money to be distributed.
And so on, down the line of earners.
The reason you shouldn't distribute what I have earned is the same reason we shouldn't distribute what Warren Buffet has earned.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Taxing net worth is like taxing existence. You can't owe the government for existing, though they clearly seem to think so.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
I understand and somewhat agree with what you are saying. It does suck that some people win the genetic lottery (overall, anyone born in U.S.A. really has). At the same time, I can't justify taking away someone else's money - money they saved, earnings from risk that they took, their luck - because I don't want it to be handed down to their kids. We already taxed them once, or multiple times, on it and additional taxes seems unfair. Maybe if there weren't so many corporate loopholes then they wouldn't have the opportunity to amass hundreds of millions of dollars.

You aren't taking someone's money though. They are dead.
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
0
0
You aren't taking someone's money though. They are dead.

If I give my daughter $20 should the government get a cut?
What about $100?
$1M?

At what point should you get a cut? It is my money, and if I leave it to someone in death it is now their money. I transferred ownership. I didn't sell it to them; it isn't income. It is now just theirs, same as if I gave her a necklace or a painting off the wall.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Terrible idea. How about we just close the big loopholes in the tax code that we already have? No more $1 wages with $100 million stock options for CEOs that they can then place overseas and avoid taxes on. Make the punishment for not paying taxes and illegaly hiding funds in offshore accounts expatriation. Quit giving huge tax breaks to large corporations that are bringing in billions of profit per year. Quit allowing people huge rebates so they get more out of the system than they put in. No deductions for corporate jets and $50,000 parties for employees.

I think, left or right, we can all agree that tax loopholes are fucking almost everyone in this country.

+42
 
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