WHY-OH-WHY

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
Addragyn didnt assume no one makes nice Windows laptops. From what you just quoted, you cannot assume that addragyn is saying no one makes nice Windows laptops.

How can I not assume that's what he's saying? He's saying nobody makes laptops that nice because it would be cost-prohibitive. He then backs it up by saying that Dell does well because they keep costs low. The whole post is a fallacy because people also buy expensive laptops like IBMs and Sonys, both of which it could be argued are nicer and/or look better than the Apples. I would say both are nicer and Sonys look a lot better, but maybe I'm the only one who's just not all that excited about silver anymore. I would even argue that an Inspirion 9200 is nicer than a 17" PowerBook (if you're into the silver thing).

Comparing similar configurations:

Apple = $2,800
17" screen, 1440x900
PowerPC 1.5, no other CPU available
64MB Radeon 9700, add another $100 if you want 128MB
512MB DDR333
80GB 4200RPM drive
Wi-Fi b/g and Bluetooth
4X DVD-R
1.0" thick, 6.9 lbs.

Dell = $1,800
17" screen, 1440x900, also available with 1920x1200 screen
Pentium M 1.6, also available with Pentium M 2.1
128MB Radeon 9700
512MB DDR333
80GB 5400RPM drive
Wi-Fi b/g and Bluetooth
8X DVD-R
1.6" thick, 7.71 lbs.

I don't have a problem with people who like Apples, but it's hard to ignore the fact that the Dell is a better laptop and is $1000 cheaper. The only advantage the Apple has is that it is 0.6" thinner and weighs 0.8 lbs. less. Dell might be cutting costs, but their customer service is much better than Apple's. With the Dell you can even get 2 years of on-site service for $116. The experiences I've had with Apple's tech support are just horrible. 90 days of tech support and 1-year of "mail it in and wait" warranty service is just absurd from a company that charges so much for their products.

Of course, if it is really necessary that your laptop be less than 1.2" thick, that severely limits your options. The ThinkPad Ts are 1.0" thick with the 14.1" display and 1.2" thick with the 15" display (and just as light as the PowerBook). I think just about every one of Sony's current notebooks is under 1.2" thick... although some of them are 1.34" thick on the back edge, which sounds like it may be of major concern to the original poster.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: Tostada

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
Addragyn didnt assume no one makes nice Windows laptops. From what you just quoted, you cannot assume that addragyn is saying no one makes nice Windows laptops.

How can I not assume that's what he's saying? He's saying nobody makes laptops that nice because it would be cost-prohibitive. He then backs it up by saying that Dell does well because they keep costs low. The whole post is a fallacy because people also buy expensive laptops like IBMs and Sonys, both of which it could be argued are nicer and/or look better than the Apples. I would say both are nicer and Sonys look a lot better, but maybe I'm the only one who's just not all that excited about silver anymore. I would even argue that an Inspirion 9200 is nicer than a 17" PowerBook (if you're into the silver thing).

Comparing similar configurations:

Apple = $2,800
17" screen, 1440x900
PowerPC 1.5, no other CPU available
64MB Radeon 9700, add another $100 if you want 128MB
512MB DDR333
80GB 4200RPM drive
Wi-Fi b/g and Bluetooth
4X DVD-R
1.0" thick, 6.9 lbs.

Dell = $1,800
17" screen, 1440x900, also available with 1920x1200 screen
Pentium M 1.6, also available with Pentium M 2.1
128MB Radeon 9700
512MB DDR333
80GB 5400RPM drive
Wi-Fi b/g and Bluetooth
8X DVD-R
1.6" thick, 7.71 lbs.

I don't have a problem with people who like Apples, but it's hard to ignore the fact that the Dell is a better laptop and is $1000 cheaper. The only advantage the Apple has is that it is 0.6" thinner and weighs 0.8 lbs. less. Dell might be cutting costs, but their customer service is much better than Apple's. With the Dell you can even get 2 years of on-site service for $116. The experiences I've had with Apple's tech support are just horrible. 90 days of tech support and 1-year of "mail it in and wait" warranty service is just absurd from a company that charges so much for their products.

Of course, if it is really necessary that your laptop be less than 1.2" thick, that severely limits your options. The ThinkPad Ts are 1.0" thick with the 14.1" display and 1.2" thick with the 15" display (and just as light as the PowerBook). I think just about every one of Sony's current notebooks is under 1.2" thick... although some of them are 1.34" thick on the back edge, which sounds like it may be of major concern to the original poster.

And like I said, from what you quoted, you cannot assume he is saying no one makes nice looking Windows laptops. From your post:

There are some laptops which are thinner than Apples. There are laptops which look nicer. There are absolutely more expensive ones out there, too. It's not like NOBODY makes nice Windows laptops.

From your opinion, you think that there are laptops that look nicer. Addragyn however, didnt even say that no one makes nice Windows laptops.

Addragyn's post:

Nobody makes that machine because it would too expensive. Cost is viewed as primary in OEM PC, quality & industrial design almost always take a back seat.

This does not sound like he is saying that "NOBODY" makes nice Windows laptops. You dont know enough from his post to make such an assumption.

As for Apple's tech support, never dealt with it. I happen to like to fix my own problems. I still use OS 9 on a Powermac G4, so I cant get help here.

As for Dell laptops, I dont like the screens on them. I go to computer shops once in a while, I check out the Dells, and the screens dont look very nice.

As for the Powerbooks, I refuse to purchase one of those, simply because of the high price. If I want a laptop, I will go for an iBook. 2800 dollars, IMO, isnt worth it for a Powerbook.

 

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
Addragyn's post:

Nobody makes that machine because it would too expensive. Cost is viewed as primary in OEM PC, quality & industrial design almost always take a back seat.

This does not sound like he is saying that "NOBODY" makes nice Windows laptops. You dont know enough from his post to make such an assumption.

I'll assume you're just having some fun; otherwise you're being childish. I'm not going to bicker about semantics, so if you are really confused about what Addragyn meant by "that machine" then you should ask him to clarify.

I've never heard of anybody having a good experience with Apple tech support. Most people just say they never had any problems, which is certainly a good thing. A friend of mine got a PowerBook about 4 years ago. Of course it had OS 9 back then. It was just terrible. Straight out of the box, it couldn't even print a simple document without crashing half the time. It couldn't play an audio CD without stuttering if you did anything else at all with the system. Apple tech support didn't seem to think this was out of the ordinary, and as soon as 90 days were up they weren't even available to say they couldn't help.

I know a few people who have the nice newer PowerBooks with OSX and they all love them. All of them are "artistic types" who would be social outcasts if they had gotten anything different, though.

 

[Wuzup101]

I think I paid about $2100 for my powerbook (see sig) with discounts. It was well worth the money IMHO. It's fast enough for me, doesn't seem any slower than my athlon system (see sig)... except when reading large files from the hard drive, which is not physically as fast. The machine is very solidly built, and regardless of what people above say, apple has excelent customer support, and a low problem rate to begin with. Do a google search... you'll find studies showing IBM and Apple at the top of the market (ironically I believe e-machines, who recently released some very nice laptops, also was up there). Honestly, for me, what it came down to was the form factor (size not weight really... ), features, and OS. The mac won in all three catagories. I could care less about raw speed, though I know a lot of you do. This isn't a gaming rig by any means, I have a PC and a modded X-box for that. It's a reliable, well built, versatile system... that's what I wanted, that's what I got...

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Commodus
Hardcore:

That's hardly what I'd call a comparable notebook - 1.5" doesn't equal 1", and it's only tasteful if you're the sort who makes "vroom vroom" noises when you play a driving game (and are the sort who buys anything with the Ferrari logo on it).

That's a pretty MORONIC statement. Personally i don't like Ferrari or the color of the laptop, but to say anybody who buys it is immature is moronic. Look at things like all the Dell snapcovers, Alien customize covers, Voodoos, various Sager vendors, and all the others, and you'll see there are many people who like them... and people who are putting down $4k for a notebook are probably more mature than you.

I just gave out one example, but there are many others out there. Asus M6000 series are also thinner and lighter than the Powerbook, and come with a 9700.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: Tostada

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
Addragyn's post:

Nobody makes that machine because it would too expensive. Cost is viewed as primary in OEM PC, quality & industrial design almost always take a back seat.

This does not sound like he is saying that "NOBODY" makes nice Windows laptops. You dont know enough from his post to make such an assumption.

I'll assume you're just having some fun; otherwise you're being childish. I'm not going to bicker about semantics, so if you are really confused about what Addragyn meant by "that machine" then you should ask him to clarify.

I've never heard of anybody having a good experience with Apple tech support. Most people just say they never had any problems, which is certainly a good thing. A friend of mine got a PowerBook about 4 years ago. Of course it had OS 9 back then. It was just terrible. Straight out of the box, it couldn't even print a simple document without crashing half the time. It couldn't play an audio CD without stuttering if you did anything else at all with the system. Apple tech support didn't seem to think this was out of the ordinary, and as soon as 90 days were up they weren't even available to say they couldn't help.

I know a few people who have the nice newer PowerBooks with OSX and they all love them. All of them are "artistic types" who would be social outcasts if they had gotten anything different, though.

Childish you say? In what way am I being childish? I am saying you cannot assume addragyn is saying "NOBODY" makes nice Windows laptops just by reading that one quote.

As for OS 9, its not that bad. I dont understand why people try to make OS 9 look so bad. I use OS 9, and it doesnt crash by doing those simple tasks you mentioned. I listen to audio cd's with no problem, and it never crashed by trying to print a document.

If you do not know how to allocate more memory, then you will experience more crashes. I can assume that you probably didnt because you said, "straight out of the box." Most people dont even know how to use OS 9.

 

[Wuzup101]

OS9 wasn't that bad, but it's not OSX. I'm not sure which I'd rather use OS9 or XP, probably XP. However, OSX is quite a bit nicer than both.

 

[addragyn]

"I know a few people who have the nice newer PowerBooks with OSX and they all love them. All of them are "artistic types" who would be social outcasts if they had gotten anything different, though. "

Give me a break! Go to ApacheCon, Defcon, O'Reily's Open Source Convention, any BioInformatics event. OS X laptops have become popular with the people who are at the top of tech. Scientists, hackers, OSS devs.

 

[Philippine Mango]

Originally posted by: addragyn
"I know a few people who have the nice newer PowerBooks with OSX and they all love them. All of them are "artistic types" who would be social outcasts if they had gotten anything different, though. "

Give me a break! Go to ApacheCon, Defcon, O'Reily's Open Source Convention, any BioInformatics event. OS X laptops have become popular with the people who are at the top of tech. Scientists, hackers, OSS devs.

Its funny you say that because the whole "artistic crowd" kind of crave that stuff, it's their persona.

 

[halfadder]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Its funny you say that because the whole "artistic crowd" kind of crave that stuff, it's their persona.

ChemBio, open source coders, and hackers/crackers aren't really the artistic types. In fact, they're almost polar opposites.

Apple attracts a varied bunch. The creed written by Steve Jobs (and slightly edited by Chiat/Day) says it all:
http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: addragyn
"I know a few people who have the nice newer PowerBooks with OSX and they all love them. All of them are "artistic types" who would be social outcasts if they had gotten anything different, though. "

Give me a break! Go to ApacheCon, Defcon, O'Reily's Open Source Convention, any BioInformatics event. OS X laptops have become popular with the people who are at the top of tech. Scientists, hackers, OSS devs.

Its funny you say that because the whole "artistic crowd" kind of crave that stuff, it's their persona.

BS.
My old man has taught art for longer than I've been alive, and he's still running on his beat-up old Gateway PIII-500. He had to use macs at one point, and he hated them. Quite a few digital artists require more power than a single computer can put out, and use distributed computing over Linux. Also, remember that Sun Microsystems markets their products to the DV editing and computer graphics segment.
In fact, the biggest code-monkeys at my school are OSX fantatics. They program almost everything in PERL, and love the UNIX compatibility with the Aqua shell wrapped around it. Almost every type of programming language supported by a Unix compilier has been ported to OSX; which is to say, all of them.
Next time, please cut back on the sterotypes.

And to the original poster:
In case you have not heard, the titanium frames on the powerbooks are somewhat flimsy; they have a nasty tendency to bend and offer little or no protection to the screen inside (EDIT: I heard they fixed that with the AluminumBooks.) Also, they are limited in terms of cooling ability; many have large heatpipes with tiny radiators that are capable of turning your lap into a grilddle. Also, most newer Powerbooks do not have hot-swappable bays; this means that they are limited to the internal drive or you break the warranty replacing it.

 

[halfadder]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
My old man has taught art for longer than I've been alive, and he's still running on his beat-up old Gateway PIII-500. He had to use macs at one point, and he hated them. Quite a few digital artists require more power than a single computer can put out, and use distributed computing over Linux. Also, remember that Sun Microsystems markets their products to the DV editing and computer graphics segment.
In fact, the biggest code-monkeys at my school are OSX fantatics. They program almost everything in PERL, and love the UNIX compatibility with the Aqua shell wrapped around it. Almost every type of programming language supported by a Unix compilier has been ported to OSX; which is to say, all of them.
Next time, please cut back on the sterotypes.

And to the original poster:
In case you have not heard, the titanium frames on the powerbooks are somewhat flimsy; they have a nasty tendency to bend and offer little or no protection to the screen inside (EDIT: I heard they fixed that with the AluminumBooks.) Also, they are limited in terms of cooling ability; many have large heatpipes with tiny radiators that are capable of turning your lap into a grilddle. Also, most newer Powerbooks do not have hot-swappable bays; this means that they are limited to the internal drive or you break the warranty replacing it.

A few comments on this:
Are you thinking of Silicon Graphics Inc (SGI) rather than Sun Microsystems? Neither Sun nor SGI have much focus on Mini-DV / DVCAM "DV" as we consumers/prosumers know it. SGI hardware is the backbone of the big monster uncompressed digital HD and SD video suites put together by companies like Discreet, IFX, and Mistika. A big Discreet Inferno system can cost $500,000+ but can composite 16 layers of HD video or film scans in real time. Sun is more of the general purpose reliable unix company. But I have seen cases where Sun gear was used for 3D and even video, but it's just not very common for it.

I have an Aluminum PowerBook G4 "AlBook". The difference between the AlBook and the oldschool "TiBook" is like night and day. My Aluminum PowerBook has gotten a year of abuse at home, work, and commuting inbetween, every working day, plus all of my vacations (I'm loving iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD). After all of that, it still feels like a solid slab of machined billet aluminum.

If Apple made PCs too, I'd buy an Apple Aluminum PC notebook as well... then I'd have a total of 2" thick PC and Mac goodness in my laptop bag. Best of both worlds!

 

[Wuzup101]

Originally posted by: Hardcore

Originally posted by: Commodus
Hardcore:

That's hardly what I'd call a comparable notebook - 1.5" doesn't equal 1", and it's only tasteful if you're the sort who makes "vroom vroom" noises when you play a driving game (and are the sort who buys anything with the Ferrari logo on it).

That's a pretty MORONIC statement. Personally i don't like Ferrari or the color of the laptop, but to say anybody who buys it is immature is moronic. Look at things like all the Dell snapcovers, Alien customize covers, Voodoos, various Sager vendors, and all the others, and you'll see there are many people who like them... and people who are putting down $4k for a notebook are probably more mature than you.

I just gave out one example, but there are many others out there. Asus M6000 series are also thinner and lighter than the Powerbook, and come with a 9700.

No offence, but he didn't say that anyone who buys them is immature, that's just what you inferred. I found a great deal of truth in his statement. Some people just like things like the Ferrari notebook. I personally thought it was pretty neat myself. However, there is a great deal of difference between it and the Powerbook. The powerbook isn't overly flashy like the Ferrari, it's simplistic. The Ferrrari notebook does appeal to the crowd that he stereotyped. Most people won't spend the extra money unless they think that it "looks cool." Usually these people are car nuts or Ferrari enthuiasts, you can't really deny that. What other reason would they have to purchase one? Being a car nut myself (and yes I do play some racing games... but don't make my own sound effects) I personally like the look. However, I have quite a few friends that, when shown a picture of it tonight, asked me what the hell the designers were thinking. And, these few guys that I was hanging out with (playing some Halo2) all scored well over 1400 on their SATs. While this may not seem like much to you, they are hardly moronic.

 

[Wuzup101]

Although I do know quite a few people that are artists that use macs, I'd say I know more computer science, and IT, CSE, MIS, etc... students who use macs. I know that our IST department recomends that their students purchase Macs when they come to school.

 

[halfadder]

The Asus M6000 is significantly thicker than the PowerBooks, its only around the edge where it's thinner. At the thinnest point it's about 0.8" thick, at the thickest point it's about 1.35" thick. A 17" PowerBook is 1.0" thick and the 15" PowerBook is 1.1" thick. The M6000 and the 15" PowerBook weigh the same.

You can probably find some great deals on the M6000 though!

 

[Burbot]

That's about 20% thicker. Not unnoticable, but not significant either. And I personally see no way for it to be that much less luggable then Apple model. I don't mind facing oh so horrile quater of inch if the machine is a thousand bucks cheaper and still satisfies *my* requirements.

 

[halfadder]

35% thicker, but who's counting.

If you compare the fit and finish of the PowerBook to that of the M6000 you'll see some major differences. It's hard to go back to plastic after using aluminum.

But, yeah... $1000 difference is a lot of money. Even with the best collection of discounts and rebates, you really can't get a 15" PowerBook for less than $1800. And most of the time, $2100 is about as low as one can be found. That's a lot of money for a PowerPC 7450 series "G4+" processor, 512 MB, 80 GB, Radeon 9700, and an aging slot-loat DVD-R. Though the backlit keyboard is REALLY classy. And the extras are kind of nice (massive heavy duty monitor/lid hinge, all ports on the sides, bluetooth, DVI, FireWire, FireWire 800, modem, Gigabit ethernet, plus a USB port on both sides).

But another problem with an aluminum notebook: 802.11a/g range sucks!

 

[Burbot]

(1.35 - 1.1) / 1.1 = .227 (which I truncated). 15" powerbook is not one inch thick. It says 1.1" for 15" powerbook in Apple specs.

In the rest of the post, I refer to "regular" 15" Powerbook - all lower-cost laptops have XGA (which is way too low for me), all higher-cost machines cost too much.


Sure, aluminium and backlit keyboard are nice if you get your machine as a style item. However, if you need a workhorse, they are as appropriate as chrome on jackhammer. Bluetooth and DVI are also fairly "cool", although useless at most times for most people. Finally, gigabit and firewire 800 are gimmicks, as you will connect to 100Mb and Firewire 400 devices in 95% of cases.

So, if all those things were icing on a cake that I did not have to pay much for, I'd be standing in line for Powerbook right away. Unfortunately, icing cost is way too high, and then one ends up with not much of a machine. A premium machine should have premium hardware and performance. Hello Apple, plain low-res WXGA display belongs on cheap eMachines - get yourself a (W)[S|U]XGA+. Your memory amount is something to be expected from a $999 machine, not $2,649 one (right amounts are 512 for iBooks, 1 gig for PowerBooks). And how about a hard drive that's faster then lowest available RPM, and a more modern CPU?

 

[TJ69]

I own both an AMD 64 notebook and a 1.5Ghz 15" PowerBook.

My AMD 64 notebook is definetely a powerful PC, and it was just around $1k cheaper than my PowerBook.

I still prefer the PowerBook despite the extra cost. If anything, I regret the purchase of my AMD 64 notebook.

The PowerBook is more refined IMHO. It has a good form factor and sleek design. Its also has some nice little touches. The backlit keyboard lights up and the screen dims automatically depending on ambient light. Even the power adapter is neat. Its not a big brick and it even has a place to wind up the cord.

Apple did an excellent job with power management. When the notebook lid is closed, the PowerBook goes into sleep mode. Before you finish flipping the lid back open, the PowerBook and your running applications are restored and ready to go. It is extremely fast. My AMD 64 notebook doesn't even come close to it in sleep/wakeup speeds, and depending on the application running or hardware/drivers installed it may not even sleep. When battery power is running low, it will also go into sleep mode. This gives you plenty of time to plug it in and not lose any of your work. Its very efficient in sleep mode and uses very little power.

Finally, its runs OS X natively. OS X has an awesome UI. Not only does it look good, but its very functional and easy to use. My productivity has increased a good bit. UI layout and shortcuts are uniform throughout applications. The dock and expose make mutli-tasking a breeze. You can automate common repetitive tasks using AppleScript. Its also a very stable OS. I can't even remember when I last rebooted or shutdown. Even after weeks of use without reboot, it feels just as responsive. Also, there is *nix backend. For power users, this means you can pull up a terminal and use your favorite cmd line utilities, or for us programmers, it means we can cross develop for all *nix variants including linux. You can also install an X-Server. Combine that with fink or Gentoo's emerge for OS X, and now you can install a plethora of console and x-window application from the open source *nix world.

You pay a premium for a PowerBook, but its worth it IMO. Both notebooks sit on my desk, but when given the choice, I will choose my PowerBook for most tasks.

 

[arcas]

For you Powerbook folks, have you ever run VirtualPC on it? If so, what's your impression of it? Too slow? Acceptably fast? I'm in the market for a laptop and the catch is I also intend to use it for telescope control and image aquisition. I would like to get a Powerbook but the astro software is mainly Windows. If VirtualPC provides access to USB ports, then it just might work assuming it doesn't run like a dog.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

I dont own a Powerbook, but I did use VPC. Its slow. I had Win98, and it ran decently. But when I installed XP Pro, it was slower than 98. Also, VPC allows access to USB ports.

 

[TJ69]

I've used VP7 with XP on my PowerBook. It runs ok but does require some patience. XP reports the cpu as a 686 - 295mhz. Its probably better suited for 98 or 2000.

The USB ports work well with VP7 with XP. I was able to get my Leadtek WinFast USB II(tv tuner box) installed. Only the remote and FM radio features work however. TV capture doesn't quite work, but I assume this is because of the emulated video card.

You should defintely test it out first to make sure it will work with your hardware. Also, see if there are any open source tools for your telescope hardware and image acquisition. If you can get it compiled and running on the PowerBook natively, you would be much better off.

 

[halfadder]

I've used both VPC 6 and VPC 7 on my PowerBook (1.25 GHz G4, currently 512 MB).

VPC 6 ran Win98 and Win2K quite well, but WinXP was a total dog. I followed some advice and configured XP for maximum performance, turning off all of the eye candy and disabling a few services, and it was finally as "fast" as Win2K.

VPC 7 is mainly an update to support the G5 processor. But it does run a little faster than VPC 6. The biggest differences are that it now has an updated graphics driver, mainly to let Windows run at 1920x1200 if you wanted to. WinXP SP2 that comes with VPC 7 also runs a lot faster out of the box than it did with VPC 6. This is probably also due to the graphics driver update as the extra eyecandy no longer slows it down as much.

Virtual PC is still emulation and it's still slow. You've probably seen the benchmarks that show a dual Opteron running Mac OS X via PearPC is just as slow as an original 233 MHz G3. Well, the same can be said for the opposite direction. Running Windows XP on a 1.25 GHz PowerBook G4 is just as slow as using a 350 MHz PII.

It is handy, though, to be able to copy some of my code out of Xcode on the Mac side, and paste it into Visual C++ on WinXP and see if it works ok on the Windows side. But that's about all I use it for.

I rarely use VPC, I bought it mostly for curiosity. I already have 6 PCs. When I really really really need to use a Windows application from my PowerBook, I almost always use Remote Desktop to access one of my PCs:
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/o...id=remotedesktopclient

 

[hopejr]

Cool, when I upgrade my PII 350 to an eMac G5 next year (assuming they are actually going to come out), I can get VPC7 and still have the same sort of speed for Windows apps .

Just on the comments about artsy ppl are the only ones who like macs and the arguments against that, I have to say that I'm a developer and I love what I can do on OS X. I know that at my university, the entire Electrical and Computer Engineering teaching staff have switched to macs, and the Computer Science teaching staff are in the process of doing so (they like the compatibility with linux, which is in the labs). I know lots of CS students that are switching too.

 

[NewBlackDak]

LOL, on my quicksilver at work I run Gentoo with MOL, and VPC7 inside of MOL. It's a dual 1.4MDD with 2GB ram though.
I need a faster machine on my desk!!