Why so much fuss over Obamacare?

[fuzzybabybunny]

So you decide to disregard nurses who have worked in hospitals for decades. All about money. Then advocates who have worked with insurance and government for the poor. Money. People who have worked hard and sacrificed and gave of themselves often at great personal costs. Money. People picked by people who know about what happens based on high ethics, ability, imagination? Money. With a broad brush you have eliminated every person who ever helped another that provided care and substitute Pelosi and Reed and Obama and Boehner and Feinstein all know more and are above gain for party?

I think I'm done. I'm one of those who works in healthcare for decades and not to be trusted by your standard.


Actually I'm good with that, because it's pointless anyway. Ignorance is strength. So be it.

You didn't answer my last question or even touch on any of the accounting documents that are necessary to actually argue your point. Because the accounting documents are the actual facts.

I'm not talking much about the nurses. Nor am I talking about most of the individual doctors or private practitioners. These employees don't hold much sway anyway over the overall business decisions of the organization. But in aggregate they combine to form a large part of the issue that you see on the accounting documents.

Edit: Those selfless people who sacrifice and all that are not the ones with the actual power. They simply receive (or don't) part of the lucrative monetary benefits of working for a system that drastically overcharges patients. And for the record my nurse friend loves helping people. She also works 3-4 days a week, often gets entire weeks off, and makes $130,000 a year. For a nonprofit hospital.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You didn't answer my last question or even touch on any of the accounting documents that are necessary to actually argue your point. Because the accounting documents are the actual facts.

I'm not talking much about the nurses. Nor am I talking about most of the individual doctors or private practitioners. These employees don't hold much sway anyway over the overall business decisions of the organization. But in aggregate they combine to form a large part of the issue that you see on the accounting documents.

Edit: Those selfless people who sacrifice and all that are not the ones with the actual power. They simply receive (or don't) part of the lucrative monetary benefits of working for a system that drastically overcharges patients. And for the record my nurse friend loves helping people. She also works 3-4 days a week, often gets entire weeks off, and makes $130,000 a year. For a nonprofit hospital.

Now I wonder if you are being honest. I'm in health care for decades and I know not one nurse, ever, who gets what you describe.

So show us where she fits in here?

And while you are at it why don't you read how cushy those jobs are, working 3 days a week and getting all the free time anyone could want.

Note neither is a trade pub.

Did you even read what I proposed? If you are confused this isn't secrecy. It's an entire open process. Obama? OK let's see who he let's in the white house. No, you can't because Obama needs to make deals in secret. Closed doors sessions in congress. That's what you want.

Hell, let's not have engineers involved in bridges because they might make money. Got a legal grievance? Waitresses don't get paid much. Wait, some might. OK. Homeless people.

Seriously, what next that teachers should teach for free for the love of kids?

What do you do for a living?

 

[EagleKeeper]

You didn't answer my last question or even touch on any of the accounting documents that are necessary to actually argue your point. Because the accounting documents are the actual facts.

I'm not talking much about the nurses. Nor am I talking about most of the individual doctors or private practitioners. These employees don't hold much sway anyway over the overall business decisions of the organization. But in aggregate they combine to form a large part of the issue that you see on the accounting documents.

Edit: Those selfless people who sacrifice and all that are not the ones with the actual power. They simply receive (or don't) part of the lucrative monetary benefits of working for a system that drastically overcharges patients. And for the record my nurse friend loves helping people. She also works 3-4 days a week, often gets entire weeks off, and makes $130,000 a year. For a nonprofit hospital.

A OR R.N. will make about $60-70K without overtime.
Contract nurses may make more but not at half time.



Assuming she works 3/4 of a week and 3/4 of a year.
that is 36 weeks * 30 hours = 1000 hours
At 130K that means she is being paid $130/hr.

Someone is pulling your leg.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

A OR R.N. will make about $60-70K without overtime.
Contract nurses may make more but not at half time.



Assuming she works 3/4 of a week and 3/4 of a year.
that is 36 weeks * 30 hours = 1000 hours
At 130K that means she is being paid $130/hr.

Someone is pulling your leg.

Or ours.

Where's my villa?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Now I wonder if you are being honest. I'm in health care for decades and I know not one nurse, ever, who gets what you describe.

So show us where she fits in here?

And while you are at it why don't you read how cushy those jobs are, working 3 days a week and getting all the free time anyone could want.

Note neither is a trade pub.

Did you even read what I proposed? If you are confused this isn't secrecy. It's an entire open process. Obama? OK let's see who he let's in the white house. No, you can't because Obama needs to make deals in secret. Closed doors sessions in congress. That's what you want.

Hell, let's not have engineers involved in bridges because they might make money. Got a legal grievance? Waitresses don't get paid much. Wait, some might. OK. Homeless people.

Seriously, what next that teachers should teach for free for the love of kids?

What do you do for a living?

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Nurse-Practitioner-Salary-Details-Palo-Alto-CA.aspx

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Nurse+Practitioner&l1=palo+alto,+ca

It is possible that she told me $130K a year (which is true) but she makes less because she doesn't want or need to work that much.

Still haven't heard you look over any financial documents and address my accounting findings. Take my local non-profit hospital.

Here you go - go wild.

http://stanfordhospital.org/aboutUs/treasury/annual.html

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35604406&postcount=24

Or MD Anderson, listed #1 in Cancer:

http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings

http://www.mdanderson.org/publications/annual-report/issues/2011-2012/data.pdf

Gross Patient Revenue 2012 (this is the amount they TRIED to charge people): $6,144,132,636
Net Patient Revenue 2012 (that is the actual money they got AFTER taking the "low" rates from insurance companies and the "unsustainable" rates from Medicare): $2,958,786,294
Uses of Revenue - Patient Care 2012 - this is how much money they actually used for patient care: $1,880,230,560

 

[EagleKeeper]

130K is the top of tbe scale for one that works full time

From what you said, it is closer to half time. 1000 hrs.


So the # you say she stated still seems flawed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Gross Patient Revenue 2012 (this is the amount they TRIED to charge people): $6,144,132,636
Net Patient Revenue 2012 (that is the actual money they got AFTER taking the "low" rates from insurance companies and the "unsustainable" rates from Medicare): $2,958,786,294
Uses of Revenue - Patient Care 2012 - this is how much money they actually used for patient care: $1,880,230,560

You throw around numbers as if "gotcha". OK. The hospital took in 3 million dollars. The President spends 1.6 billion dollars on bodyguards each year.

So do you have a job and what is it? Precisely what do you know about how much it costs to do anything? One thing I can say is that at least the hospital lists what it takes in. How about the revered Congressional Members’ Wellness Center, the fitness center and spa for the Senate and house paid for at our expense, the one we aren't even allowed to know the cost of?

Speaking costs, how much does it cost to run a hospital? How much do MRI machines cost to buy, maintain and staff?

What background do you have which permits you to pronounce a judgement on whether a thing is well run or not?

Meh, I said I would stop and I need to. Arguing with ignorance is never profitable.

BTW, at least know what professions you don't like. Nurses and nurse practitioners are different, but any of them know a whole lot more about reality than virtually all the "experts" here or in DC.

I'm done now, seriously.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

You throw around numbers as if "gotcha". OK. The hospital took in 3 million dollars. The President spends 1.6 billion dollars on bodyguards each year.

So do you have a job and what is it? Precisely what do you know about how much it costs to do anything? One thing I can say is that at least the hospital lists what it takes in. How about the revered Congressional Members

 

[dank69]

You throw around numbers as if "gotcha". OK. The hospital took in 3 million dollars. The President spends 1.6 billion dollars on bodyguards each year.

So do you have a job and what is it? Precisely what do you know about how much it costs to do anything? One thing I can say is that at least the hospital lists what it takes in. How about the revered Congressional Members

$3B with a B

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

$3B with a B

Ok, three billion dollars. That doesn't change anything really when numbers are thrown around without a context. Like I said, why does Obama need 1.6 billion dollars for bodyguards? With a B by the way.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

You throw around numbers as if "gotcha". OK. The hospital took in 3 million dollars. The President spends 1.6 billion dollars on bodyguards each year.

So do you have a job and what is it? Precisely what do you know about how much it costs to do anything? One thing I can say is that at least the hospital lists what it takes in. How about the revered Congressional Members’ Wellness Center, the fitness center and spa for the Senate and house paid for at our expense, the one we aren't even allowed to know the cost of?

Speaking costs, how much does it cost to run a hospital? How much do MRI machines cost to buy, maintain and staff?

What background do you have which permits you to pronounce a judgement on whether a thing is well run or not?

Meh, I said I would stop and I need to. Arguing with ignorance is never profitable.

BTW, at least know what professions you don't like. Nurses and nurse practitioners are different, but any of them know a whole lot more about reality than virtually all the "experts" here or in DC.

I'm done now, seriously.

You throw around numbers as if "gotcha".

Wow, seriously? I'm providing DATA to back up my argument. You can't even read the numbers right. These are financial numbers that tell the financial story of how a business is operating.

I run my own business with 5 employees, one of which is overseas. I will be hiring 3 more overseas employees within half a year as I expand my business. I'm 28. I have other people do work for me. I'm well-versed in looking at business data and deciphering it.

MRI Machine Cost:

http://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and-Price-Guide

Average price paid for an MRI scan:

http://www.newchoicehealth.com/Directory/CityProcedureType/California/Los Angeles/15/MRI

Let's say that a single MRI machine costs $1,000,000. Let's go all-out, full retard, and say that it also costs $1,000,000 a year to operate a single MRI machine. We're just going to throw bags of money at the technicians and pay the highest prices in electricity we can possibly find and buy the most expensive disposable supplies we can find. The average price paid for a single scan is $2,000. It would take 1,000 scans to make back the entire cost of the machine and the operating costs of the machine.

You can bet your ass a hospital could use an MRI machine 1,000 times in a single year. So in a single year it could more than pay off the machine, and it's pure profit from thereon out. Oh yeah, they're likely on some payment plan for the machine, so they're making even MORE in profit. Plus they are depreciating the machine as a tangible asset on their list of business expenses over a period of many years so their tax burden is lessened overall during all those years.

Every single time I hear someone use the argument "well how much does an MRI machine cost? HUH? How about that?" I have to smack my face. The cost is not much when you take into account the revenue generated from it. I just KNOW that they have ZERO data to back up their accusation because it is SO easily disproven.

Compare the financials of the hospitals I posted previously to the financials of the insurance companies:

https://www.blueshieldca.com/bsca/about-blue-shield/corporate/financials.sp

86.8% of that they took in in premiums they used to pay out to these hospitals, and these hospitals still stand to make a huge ~50%+ profit margin based on the cost to provide these services. Looking at these numbers, which side is more showered in cash? Which side has more bargaining power when negotiating rates? The insurance companies then have to make do with the remaining 14% for running EVERYTHING - salaries, marketing, overhead.

Arguing with ignorance? Look in the mirror. I'm the only one that has brought solid numbers and DATA into this discussion. You have only brought accusations and anecdotes.

 

[jackstar7]

Like I said, why does Obama need 1.6 billion dollars for bodyguards? With a B by the way.

Because we live in a world of a billion ways to kill a single man...? And his protection maintains a level of stability and order that the rest of the world counts on as well as our economy? Presidents of the US are kind of important in that way...

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Ok, three billion dollars. That doesn't change anything really when numbers are thrown around without a context. Like I said, why does Obama need 1.6 billion dollars for bodyguards? With a B by the way.

Source for this $1.6 billion figure? Cite something, please!

EDIT:

The closest that I got was this:

"the total cost of running the White House under the Obama Administration reached $1.4 billion:"

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-presidency-costs-taxpayers-a-lot-but-thats-not-obamas-fault/

That's the total cost of the ENTIRE White House ie. Executive Branch of our government. The entire family. ALL staff. ALL transportation. The entirety of Air Force One. I'm not arguing that this seems high. It does seem high.

But if goes to show that your ENTIRE

Like I said, why does Obama need 1.6 billion dollars for bodyguards? With a B by the way.

is patently wrong, and wrong by an astronomical margin. I don't even know where to begin.

I think *I'm* the one who's done here with all the rampant heresay, misinformation, false "data," and refusal to analyse hard data in a logical, scientific manner. AT Discussion Club is definitely not the place for any kind of actual debate.

 

[AViking]

The entire secret service budget is $1.9B. That's to protect the President, Vice President, their families, former Presidents, children of former presidents, visiting heads of state, and so on.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Source for this $1.6 billion figure? Cite something, please!

EDIT:

The closest that I got was this:

"the total cost of running the White House under the Obama Administration reached $1.4 billion:"

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-presidency-costs-taxpayers-a-lot-but-thats-not-obamas-fault/

That's the total cost of the ENTIRE White House ie. Executive Branch of our government. The entire family. ALL staff. ALL transportation. The entirety of Air Force One. I'm not arguing that this seems high. It does seem high.

But if goes to show that your ENTIRE is patently wrong, and wrong by an astronomical margin. I don't even know where to begin.

I think *I'm* the one who's done here with all the rampant heresay, misinformation, false "data," and refusal to analyse hard data in a logical, scientific manner. AT Discussion Club is definitely not the place for any kind of actual debate.

It's the budget for the secret service. What you did was cite the budget of a hospital system which has nothing to do with my suggestions as some sort of counter. You also bring up a dream job which would be rare indeed which also has nothing to do with it. What you seem to know is dollars but none of what goes on but that's sufficient evidence of something.

OK then. The Secret Service serves as the Presidential bodyguard. The budget is about 1.6 billion dollars. I don't need to know anything else to know to not trust any of them when discussing Presidential security. Well not really, but if I were to link things in such a fashion as you have then it "works".

In your mind or at least how you present your thoughts is that anyone who earns a good living at something cannot be trusted and so those who lack knowledge and expertise should be in charge. That latter group profits from such control does not seem to have occurred to you. That what has been done so far has been politically motivated and hardly open doesn't matter. The main problems we're going to face-- can you list them? Are you aware of the train coming down the tracks you are standing on? So far I haven't seen anything other than a desire to cut people's salaries. Besides a budget and insurance what do you really know? If you want a discussion put some time into learning before you pass judgement on those who you really know nothing about. Don't toss out numbers like they mean something. They don't, no more that those I did for the "bodyguards".

 

[AViking]

OK then. The Secret Service serves as the Presidential bodyguard. The budget is about 1.6 billion dollars. I don't need to know anything else to know to not trust any of them when discussing Presidential security. Well not really, but if I were to link things in such a fashion as you have then it "works".
.

Actually you do need to know something else. You need to know that they do more than protect the President.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Actually you do need to know something else. You need to know that they do more than protect the President.

I know that, but I could toss around numbers, make an assertion, and not know what it means. I can say that because they handle Presidential security you can't trust them. After all, 1.6 billion dollars.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

It's the budget for the secret service. What you did was cite the budget of a hospital system which has nothing to do with my suggestions as some sort of counter. You also bring up a dream job which would be rare indeed which also has nothing to do with it. What you seem to know is dollars but none of what goes on but that's sufficient evidence of something.

OK then. The Secret Service serves as the Presidential bodyguard. The budget is about 1.6 billion dollars. I don't need to know anything else to know to not trust any of them when discussing Presidential security. Well not really, but if I were to link things in such a fashion as you have then it "works".

In your mind or at least how you present your thoughts is that anyone who earns a good living at something cannot be trusted and so those who lack knowledge and expertise should be in charge. That latter group profits from such control does not seem to have occurred to you. That what has been done so far has been politically motivated and hardly open doesn't matter. The main problems we're going to face-- can you list them? Are you aware of the train coming down the tracks you are standing on? So far I haven't seen anything other than a desire to cut people's salaries. Besides a budget and insurance what do you really know? If you want a discussion put some time into learning before you pass judgement on those who you really know nothing about. Don't toss out numbers like they mean something. They don't, no more that those I did for the "bodyguards".

That's not what I'm saying and you continue to fail to link hard numbers with what's coming your way and what the healthcare provider industry is doing.

You continue to make this some kind of personal attack on the employees in the system and you fail to see that it is an issue with the industry and the fundamental business and capitalistic properties at play.

You again refuse to acknowledge any numbers or cite *anything*

You have never once actually debated any of the numbers and data I posted here, instead referring to them as simply "throwing numbers around." I'm confident that anyone reading this thread will see your "arguments" next to my actual data and make the correct decision from there.

And with the numbers and data I leave behind...

I'm done and abandoning this discussion. It's not like anything is going to get changed here anyway.

Good luck, AViking.