Why the economy is still in shambles

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bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
sure we are. first of all the US economy is not in shambles, it's growing. 2nd there will be global economic growth, the issue for us is will we keep getting more than our share of it, I think we will, or will our role diminish.

The only real threat is if American youth suddenly stops being American, which I don't see happening.

Old people, meaning anyone who fears the future, never can see that the future that is coming and it's full of young people who arent afraid to go for it. That's why America is always sustainable.

The lack of that mentality is exactly why people like Jim Rogers are leaving the US.
 

OBLAMA2009

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2008
6,574
3
0
dont forget that another huge contributor to the problems in this country is that we are spending huge amounts of money on two dead end wars. just think what we could have gotten done if we had put all those soldiers to work doing productive things in this country rather than blowing up foreign countries.

long term this country is through
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
The lack of that mentality is exactly why people like Jim Rogers are leaving the US.

I didnt know who he was so I looked it up. I don't see where he argues that Asia is gonna be the new innovators, if he does think that he's an idiot. I believe he's bullish on Asia because he's basically a rapist, he buys low and sells high, he doesn't create wealth in the way innovators do.

Asia hasn't innovated anything since paper and firecrackers. They are good workers, they make excellent copies of stuff that Americans and Europeans discover or invent.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
What's funny about Rogers is that he's been consistently wrong, and would rather invest in areas like China, whose gov't just banned VoIP to protect their 3 state-owned money makers for god sakes.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Considering the economy has gained over 1,000,000 private sector jobs this year,

Using the .govs own figures the population grows at about 1% a year so to make the math easy lets assume the workforce grows at the same rate as children become adults in need of jobs.
So we have roughly 10% unemployment and added roughly 3,000,000 new workers to the economy which means 1,000,000 new jobs is literelly going backwards. We don't have "new jobs" we have 2,000,000 new workers who can't get jobs. Umm, yippie?

the bailout money is on track to be recouped over 90% (that includes Fannie and Freddie),

Bullshit. The bad debt hasn't gone anywhere. If you are suggesting it has, please tell us all exactly where it went. Furthermore the blatant fraud committed during this entire fiasco has not only gone unpunished but the illegally obtained profits haven't even been clawed back. It has been and is safe and extremely profitable to commit fraud in this country if you are a bankster. Yippie again?

and the dollar has continued to neither gain or lose any significant strength going on 2+ years now,

Except when compared to stuff we actually have to buy like food and energy. Seen commodity prices lately?

it's pretty clear who has been right and who has been wrong about the recession and its implications so far. Seriously, at this point it's more than a little sad if you're still claiming the bailouts, Fed policy or job growth measures haven't been effective. Hell, adjusted for inflation you still gained 3% on your stock portfolio over the last decade 2000-2010. We've had decades where you actually lost money on your stock portfolio, but still gained 6%+ over any 30 year period adjusting for dividends and assuming you invested in blue chips in the Dow/S&P/Nasdaq indices.

With enough money and accounting tricks anyone can make something look better than it is for a while. Legalized accounting fraud is one of the reasons that the banks are doing so well. Isn't it funny that when the FDIC stepped into a lot of the failed banks they realized losses of sometimes over 40% versus what the bank said their assets were worth? Wanna know what they call that? Fraud that is what they call that, you or I pull that shit and we go to jail.

The math always wins in the end though. Would you care to argue the actual math? Its only grade school level math so it isn't that difficult.

With the Dow currently at 11,600 equity growth certainly isn't historically trending somewhere dire. The proposed alternatives of non-Fed, deflationary policies where large monopolies are allowed to manipulate interest rates have failed miserably throughout world and U.S. history, and any untested hybrid alternative of these arcane austerity policies haven't been anywhere near adequately proven or vetted.

Exactly who is manipulating interest rates right now and how in the hell are they not considered a monopoly? Are you implying that eternal ZIRP is a good thing? If not are you aware of the consequences when that policy is ended either by external forces (bond market) or by the "manipulators" (the Fed)?

Homework: What is the current average time frame that ALL of our existing national debt must be rolled over. What is our current average "interest rate" paid on that debt. What will our interest payment be if bond rates return to historical norms tomorrow.

Math always wins eventually and it can be a cruel bitch when it does. I have no idea when our games will stop working but like I said, the math doesn't lie.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Using the .govs own figures the population grows at about 1% a year so to make the math easy lets assume the workforce grows at the same rate as children become adults in need of jobs.
So we have roughly 10% unemployment and added roughly 3,000,000 new workers to the economy which means 1,000,000 new jobs is literelly going backwards. We don't have "new jobs" we have 2,000,000 new workers who can't get jobs. Umm, yippie?

Your assumptions are misinformed. Americans don't start working immediately after they've become age-eligible to do so for a multitude of reasons including school/family/friends obligations. 1.1M jobs keeps up with population growth and, eventually, will outpace it when younger people get into the workforce and start businesses that create jobs.

Bullshit. The bad debt hasn't gone anywhere. If you are suggesting it has, please tell us all exactly where it went. Furthermore the blatant fraud committed during this entire fiasco has not only gone unpunished but the illegally obtained profits haven't even been clawed back. It has been and is safe and extremely profitable to commit fraud in this country if you are a bankster. Yippie again?

I'm sorry to say you're horribly misinformed about how much we're on pace to recoup: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AS63W20101130

I do agree that our laws need to change for bankers, but it has already gotten substantially better.

Except when compared to stuff we actually have to buy like food and energy. Seen commodity prices lately?

Food and energy is always like that, sorry. Especially energy. And those fluctuate downward as well. Where were you in asking for those downward price movements in food and energy to be counted as deflation when they occurred? No doubt silent.

With enough money and accounting tricks anyone can make something look better than it is for a while.

You mean when someone is misinformed and delusional enough to believe anything but the truth, they'll believe the delusion before the truth? Sorry, reality is reality and this year's double digit returns are indisputable and already on the books. It happened. Deal with it.

Legalized accounting fraud is one of the reasons that the banks are doing so well. Isn't it funny that when the FDIC stepped into a lot of the failed banks they realized losses of sometimes over 40% versus what the bank said their assets were worth? Wanna know what they call that? Fraud that is what they call that, you or I pull that shit and we go to jail.

Please be specific, your layman bullshit is just tiring.

The math always wins in the end though. Would you care to argue the actual math? Its only grade school level math so it isn't that difficult.

I just laid out the math for you kiddo; 3% compound interest over 10 years 2000-2010, includes dividends and assumes blue chip investments in top 3 indices. 13%-14% this year alone.

Exactly who is manipulating interest rates right now and how in the hell are they not considered a monopoly? Are you implying that eternal ZIRP is a good thing? If not are you aware of the consequences when that policy is ended either by external forces (bond market) or by the "manipulators" (the Fed)?

What part of the Federal Reserve's monopoly over (some) interest rates between 1913-2010 was inferior to any similar period in U.S. history. Please be specific. Also, I don't see any significant consequences of raising interest rates in a booming economy as long as they're done carefully

Homework: What is the current average time frame that ALL of our existing national debt must be rolled over. What is our current average "interest rate" paid on that debt. What will our interest payment be if bond rates return to historical norms tomorrow.

It'll mean the feds will be forced to borrow less, reducing national debt, in the face of expensive gov't financing. Rising interest rates means nothing if they borrowed at a fixed interest rate too.

Math always wins eventually and it can be a cruel bitch when it does. I have no idea when our games will stop working but like I said, the math doesn't lie.

Except the math isn't on your side, since you haven't been the least bit specific. In fact, you haven't cited a single figure that we should be worried about, other than vaguely referring to national debt which, of course, everyone acknowledges and is a misnomer to begin with.
 
Last edited:

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Gas isn't going there any time soon, if ever.

And I'm talking big picture. Looking at one example..

The price of gas is irrelevant, what matters is the cost of transportation versus alternatives to transportation.

That equation determines the price of gas, and also determines the level of innovation which is what my point about American youth is.

It has got to stink in the shit you are so buried in.
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
What's funny about Rogers is that he's been consistently wrong, and would rather invest in areas like China, whose gov't just banned VoIP to protect their 3 state-owned money makers for god sakes.

Whats really funny is he retired when he was 37......
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
H1B's with citizenship contingencies aren't really that big a deal, especially since most businesses don't take them as seriously due to language and culture barriers. Besides, they account for an extraordinarily small part of the U.S. labor force, something like 0.0001% of all hired employees.

We are not talking about all jobs just the ones you mentioned.

"Luckily you can't ship out technical higher paying jobs because American businesses will always need the physical presence of a skilled employee, especially one that can actually speak English."

It's the irreplaceable mentality that is going to bite many of those who believe they are somehow entitled to high paying jobs because they are American and can't be outsourced easily.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
Funny to see the Chicken little chorus in this thread....


You guys are whats creating the gold bubble...
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Whats really funny is he retired when he was 37......

There is no shortage of billionaires that come by their money with lucky timing.

We are not talking about all jobs just the ones you mentioned.

"Luckily you can't ship out technical higher paying jobs because American businesses will always need the physical presence of a skilled employee, especially one that can actually speak English."

It's the irreplaceable mentality that is going to bite many of those who believe they are somehow entitled to high paying jobs because they are American and can't be outsourced easily.

It's still insignificant, the majority of approved H1B's don't even get a job in the U.S., employers by and large don't want them compared to American workers. I don't generally like the idea, but from the arguments I've heard it's said that if H1B's aren't allowed at all you would exacerbate the current shortage of skilled technical labor. Which is anecdotally verifiable if you were to look at Dice, CareerBuilder, et al and see how many $50,000+ jobs highly technical jobs have been available throughout the country for 6+ months. I applied to a job in Beverly Hills 2 years ago that's still listed verbatim on Dice. But that's anecdotal.
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
Not sure if this is accurate but I thought interesting.....

End of year gold price:

2000 -- $273.60
2001 -- $279.00
2002 -- $348.20
2003 -- $416.10
2004 -- $438.40
2005 -- $518.90
2006 -- $638.00
2007 -- $838.00
2008 -- $889.00
2009 -- $1118.40
2010 -- $1421.00.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
dont forget that another huge contributor to the problems in this country is that we are spending huge amounts of money on two dead end wars. just think what we could have gotten done if we had put all those soldiers to work doing productive things in this country rather than blowing up foreign countries.

long term this country is through

Like?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Not sure if this is accurate but I thought interesting.....

End of year gold price:

2000 -- $273.60
2001 -- $279.00
2002 -- $348.20
2003 -- $416.10
2004 -- $438.40
2005 -- $518.90
2006 -- $638.00
2007 -- $838.00
2008 -- $889.00
2009 -- $1118.40
2010 -- $1421.00.

So?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Wow, are you serious? :biggrin::biggrin:

He even admits here he was wrong...and that was 14 months ago.

http://cabid.com/2010/11/03/us-economy-better-than-i-expected-jim-rogers-oct-12-2009-03/

He also advocated the ridiculous "delinking" thought, similar to your other hero, Schiff.

He also advocated investing in Africa in 1998. Wrong.

Also advocated buying into Ag stocks in 2008 while saying there would be food shortages. Wrong.

He, himself, says he is wrong 50% of the time.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
He even admits here he was wrong...and that was 14 months ago.

http://cabid.com/2010/11/03/us-economy-better-than-i-expected-jim-rogers-oct-12-2009-03/

He also advocated the ridiculous "delinking" thought, similar to your other hero, Schiff.

He also advocated investing in Africa in 1998. Wrong.

Also advocated buying into Ag stocks in 2008 while saying there would be food shortages. Wrong.

He, himself, says he is wrong 50% of the time.

He may be off on timing like myself, that is what he is admitting to.

We are in the beginning of a huge food shortage thanks to Ethanol.

There are countries starving that otherwise would not be when we were producing corn for food and not for fuel subsidy for the rich.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
He may be off on timing like myself, that is what he is admitting to.

We are in the beginning of a huge food shortage thanks to Ethanol.

There are countries starving that otherwise would not be when we were producing corn for food and not for fuel subsidy for the rich.

Dave, you're wrong on everything. No just financial predictions. Remember the Minneapolis bridge collapse? Earthquake? You were wrong on that. That and many others (drive for 5) has completely undermined your position here. How's that lawsuit going?

Heh, shows how wrong you are. Corn (and other) based Ethanol is already falling out of favor and is being downsized.

We know you suck dave, no need to reinforce that.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Dave, you're wrong on everything. No just financial predictions. Remember the Minneapolis bridge collapse? Earthquake? You were wrong on that. That and many others (drive for 5) has completely undermined your position here. How's that lawsuit going?

Heh, shows how wrong you are. Corn (and other) based Ethanol is already falling out of favor and is being downsized.

We know you suck dave, no need to reinforce that.

Your love says otherwise

I don't have a "position"

Oh BTW

1-1-11

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01...rsonations-Now-Illegal-In-California?from=rss

Online Impersonations Now Illegal In California
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Your assumptions are misinformed. Americans don't start working immediately after they've become age-eligible to do so for a multitude of reasons including school/family/friends obligations. 1.1M jobs keeps up with population growth and, eventually, will outpace it when younger people get into the workforce and start businesses that create jobs.

Sorry, I don't get it. If we add 3m new people a year to the population starting today then eventually we will only require 1M new jobs a year to support that? Hell, even if all the women become housewives that still doesn't add and going by your 1.1M number doesn't that mean we created 100,000 fewer jobs last year then need to simply keep up with the population growth? That means we have an additional 100,000 people who wish to be employed but can not find employment.

I'm sorry to say you're horribly misinformed about how much we're on pace to recoup: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AS63W20101130

Sure... from TARP itself. You didn't answer the question though, exactly what happened with the bad debt that caused this mess? Where did it go?

I do agree that our laws need to change for bankers, but it has already gotten substantially better.

Yeah right. Bribery, front running, bid rigging, market manipulation, blatant insider trading, fuckloads of fraud committed to get us in this mess (with massive profits kept from that fraud), hundreds of thousands of cases of perjury, a fuckload of MBS in which the titles were not properly transfered meaning the banks could be forced to buy them back, backdoor bailout after backdoor bailout (not counted in your TARP numbers), a housing market that has been artificially propped up and will likely start falling again, etc.... Oh, most of that stuff is a crime, would you like to guess how many indictments we have seen?

Food and energy is always like that, sorry. Especially energy. And those fluctuate downward as well. Where were you in asking for those downward price movements in food and energy to be counted as deflation when they occurred? No doubt silent.

Bullshit. They may fluctuate but the ramp in commodities is not normal nor is it constrained to just food and energy. We are talking 35% - 50% ramps in a lot of them. ALL commodities have been on a tear so try again.

You mean when someone is misinformed and delusional enough to believe anything but the truth, they'll believe the delusion before the truth? Sorry, reality is reality and this year's double digit returns are indisputable and already on the books. It happened. Deal with it.

Yup. Exactly the same can be said about the gains all the up to damn near 14K on the DOW in Oct' 07. It happened too, it was real, returns indisputable, etc... Same thing with the .com bubble. Looking back at those times now we can easily see that the market couldn't reasonably account for those valuations because of economic reality. I simply asked about the economic reality right now that supports current valuations. I assume you are going to stick with not answering that question.

Please be specific, your layman bullshit is just tiring.

Mark to myth = legalized accounting fraud because it allows banks to value an asset far above fair market value (ie. what they can sell it for). That is why the FDIC was seeing 40% losses after taking over some failed banks, that should NEVER happen and when it does it means someone cooked the books.

I can make my business show a huge gain in value if I get to pretend my assets are worth more than they really are. If I did that would the value of my business actually be greater though?

What part of the Federal Reserve's monopoly over (some) interest rates between 1913-2010 was inferior to any similar period in U.S. history. Please be specific. Also, I don't see any significant consequences of raising interest rates in a booming economy as long as they're done carefully

I am not even going to bother researching the first question and I will admit that the answer is probably none. I am not a gold bug nor do I think we should have a gold backed currency or any of that bullshit. Its just not a good idea to back your currency with something that is mostly produced and therefore the supply is controlled, by other nations. However, I have seen proposals for a "mechanical" monetary system that makes much more sense.

With that said, I wouldn't be banging the Fed drum to hard. Whats a dollars value today compared to 1913? Something like 7%. Doesn't sound very good to me, I am not sure why people think no inflation and no deflation policy is a bad thing.

As far as interest rates, you are clueless. People do NOT buy houses based on price they buy them based on payment. A family can afford $1K/month for a mortgage payment can "afford" a $200K loan at 4.5%. At 7.5% they can afford a $150,000 loan with that same $1K/month payment, a loss of 25% of their "home purchasing power". That would utterly destroy what is left of the housing market. Next up, the Federal budget.

It'll mean the feds will be forced to borrow less, reducing national debt, in the face of expensive gov't financing. Rising interest rates means nothing if they borrowed at a fixed interest rate too.

Guess you didn't do your homework.

Currently the Federal government must roll over damn near ALL of its existing debt approximately every 4 years. You see we moved all of our debt to the short end during historically low interest rates to temporarily make the budget look better and it has worked so far. That is why we currently pay less interest on the national debt then we did in the Bush years despite having a lot more debt.

No such thing as a free lunch though, what that also means is that when the interest rates return to historic norms, or hell any significant rise at all, the interest we owe on existing debt will rise dramatically and extremely quickly. To add a bit of perspective, in 2010 the Feds collected roughly enough to cover JUST mandatory spending (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest payments on debt) and thats it. Everything else went on the ye ole credit card including Defense, DOE, Education, Transportation, Ag, Homeland Defense, the light bill for the White House, Congressional budget, everything. A very moderate bump in the interest we must pay on our debt puts us into the "paying one credit card with another credit card" category as we would have to borrow to cover the increase in interest payments. Creditors tend to call that activity risky.


Except the math isn't on your side, since you haven't been the least bit specific.

Bad debt still in the system, what was fixed? Banks holding assets far above their market rate. National debt on the short end means almost instant increase in costs as bonds return to historical norms, housing market gets body slammed if interest rates go up a few points, the last two are why the Fed is locked into ZIRP, the Federal government replacing a fuckton of GDP with borrowed money, etc...

In fact, you haven't cited a single figure that we should be worried about, other than vaguely referring to national debt which, of course, everyone acknowledges and is a misnomer to begin with.

Familiar at all with exponents and what a chart looks like after a long period of time of one side growing X% greater than the other side?

Federal spending compared to GDP:


Outstanding debt:



You are arguing about the stock market which has often been considerably wrong. I am arguing the underlying economics which eventually catches up with bad bets in the market. There is no argument that the market is up huge but WHY is it up huge? Perhaps you think that the .gov can replace private spending with deficit spending forever? Or perhaps no negative effects will occur when they pull that spending out? Or maybe the actual consumer is just doing a hellofa lot better now than a year ago and will continue to get a hellofa lot better this year (kinda hard when you don't have a job and have lost considerable equity if you had any and 1 in 10 homeowners is actually underwater on their home loan but whatever)? Or maybe the States will pick up the slack because they are all doing so well?

That is the "math" I am talking about, not a single year of the DOW.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
He even admits here he was wrong...and that was 14 months ago.

http://cabid.com/2010/11/03/us-economy-better-than-i-expected-jim-rogers-oct-12-2009-03/

He also advocated the ridiculous "delinking" thought, similar to your other hero, Schiff.

He also advocated investing in Africa in 1998. Wrong.

Also advocated buying into Ag stocks in 2008 while saying there would be food shortages. Wrong.

He, himself, says he is wrong 50% of the time.

You're absolutely correct, he's the first to admit when he's been wrong. Regardless, First's comment is laughably wrong, Rogers has been right far more than he's been wrong, proven by his success.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
He even admits here he was wrong...and that was 14 months ago.

http://cabid.com/2010/11/03/us-economy-better-than-i-expected-jim-rogers-oct-12-2009-03/

He also advocated the ridiculous "delinking" thought, similar to your other hero, Schiff.

He also advocated investing in Africa in 1998. Wrong.

Also advocated buying into Ag stocks in 2008 while saying there would be food shortages. Wrong.

He, himself, says he is wrong 50% of the time.

At least he is right more often than Bernanke.

In all fairness, I don't think Helicopter Ben has been "wrong" as often as he has just been a flat out liar. He of all people should understand exponents and his no housing bubble call when people who used to flip burgers were flipping houses and even my dumbass knew it was a bubble had to be a lie.
 
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