Why Today's Graphics Card Market Sucks

xDarc

Member
Jun 4, 2007
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0
Backstory:

I'm a working stiff. I make enough to cover my bills and save a fair amount every month. At the beginning of this year, I set out to put together a new PC by purchasing one component at a time; each at the right time. I've never taken this approach and it's worked out well. I've replaced everything except for the case, one hard drive, my old and familliar keyboard and mouse, and... the graphics card. (1900GT)

So what's new? A 2ms GTG LCD monitor, a 700W ~87% efficient modular power supply, a couple new SATA drives & DVD, an AW9D MAX mobo, an E6600 (@ 3.2Ghz that idles at ~28C w/ aftermarket cooling), a matched pair of 1 gig DDR2 800 sticks- (@ 900 4-4-4-12 w/ 2.1v) and I even bought an air cooled 5.25" to 3.25" conversion bay to move all my hard drives from where Im expecting a long graphics card to be, also added sommore case fans.

So here I am- all my old parts are long gone; passed off to friends or sitting in a PC "junk" drawer... except that same 1900GT is still sitting there where a newer, faster, better, harder card should be. Lately I've been wondering why that old card is still there; I've been tossing and turning for a couple weeks now on whether to grab an 8800 series card; and which one- etc. Last night the prudent consumer inside me rebelled and fueled a long night of searching the web, reading reviews, tech forum threads, and shopping for prices to settle the matter.



Why I Won't Buy an Nvidia 8800 Series Card:

The most obvious thing to me at my hesitance to grab one of these were the prices. The 8800GTS 320MB from one of the more reputable manufactuers is hovering around $290. (Newegg Price Info) This is the best bang for the buck the 8800 series has to offer- and for future proofing purposes; the deal may not be sweet enough. There are instances in benchmarking reviews of this card; where it gets beaten by less powerful and less expensive cards with more texture memory. (Benchmarks) and also here: (More Benchmarks: Quake 4!) It will vary from game to game; and with a multitude of settings- but if games already on the market are easily chewing up 320MB of texture memory; DX10 games will not be any gentler. Another review echoes this sentiment here: Review

Beyond the 8800GTS 320MB in the 8800 series, the price increases much faster relative to the performance increase. (8800 Series Comparisons) The 8800 Ultra offers a vary narrow lead over an 8800GTX for an extra ~250 dollars or more; and only offers a 30% increase in performance over an 8800GTS 320MB for ~500 dollars more. (Newegg Price Info)

I'm also leery of some of the largest and power hungry cards to date. While the architecture of the G80 is real progress- they've chosen to stick with the 90nm fabrication process- this is the reason for the size, power consumption, and possibly the cost of these cards. Some excerpts from a review on the G80 that can be found in full here (Full Review)

"The thing is, the G80 isn't manufactured on a next-generation chip fabrication process. After some bad past experiences (read: GeForce FX), Nvidia prefers not to tackle a new GPU design and a new fab process at the same time. There's too much risk involved. So they have instead asked TSMC to manufacture the G80 on its familiar 90nm process, with the result being the single largest chip I believe I've ever seen."

"Nvidia's isn't handing out exact die size measurements, but they claim to get about 80 chips gross per wafer. Notice that's a gross number. Any chip of this size has got to be incredibly expensive to manufacture, because the possibility of defects over such a large die area will be exponentially higher than with a GPU like the G71 or R580. That's going to make for some very expensive chips."

"The chip is still too large and consumes too much power at idle, but this architecture should be a sweetheart once it makes the transition to a 65nm fab process, which is where it really belongs."

And exactly how future proof are these cards? There is already some evidence out there to suggest Nvidia is basically sitting on the next refresh of cards in the 8900 series that will be available on an 80nm process with faster GDDR4 memory for less money. (Leaked Info) I don't know about you; but if I'm going to spend around 600 dollars on a graphics card- I'd be plenty pissed off if a new version makes not just a small step; but a huge leap ahead at a lower price in less than six months.

Lastly- in the news it seems like AMD and Nvidia are facing over 50 lawsuits that allege price fixing. There are snips and reposts of the news all over enthuiast hardware sites. (News Repost) There's also a forum discussion on suspected price fixing that dates back a while here: (Price Fixing Thread) With so many lawsuits pending concerning price fixing; it is very likely at least one of them will have some effect on the market in the consumer's favor.



Lack of Suitable Alternatives Or Intermediary Transitions:

So I've decided I'll pass on the 8800 series cards, I then set out to find a card that would provide a significant improvement over my 1900GT at a low price. To my dissapointment, it seems prices on older models aren't dropping as fast as you'd think. (Newegg Price Info)

An x1950 crossfire which gets outperformed in almost every benchmark by an 8800GTS 320MB; sometimes by far- still costs just as much; and in some cases more than the lower tier 8800 GTS 320MB cards. The higher end 7900 series of cards are still floating above 200 dollars- which is too much to pay for an intermediary card to transition from in the short term. Ideally I was looking at spending no more than $100-$150 for something that will kick the crap out of my 1900GT; and hold me over until a new series of cards arrive that offer real value.

What's available for about a 150 bucks? For my needs, nothing really. The 8600GT series cards are in that price range; but they are about on par with my x1900GT. Though I could not find a direct comparison- the 8500 and 8600GT were compared to a x1950 PRO- (which you can see here only trumps the x1900GT by a small margin: (Review)) and the x1950 PRO outperformed the 8600GT: (Review)



In Conclusion:

While there are plenty of options- none of them truely feel like a smart upgrade path for their costs. There's the 8800GTS 320MB model that costs around 300 dollars that may end up struggling with new DX10 games. For around 100 dollars more, the 640MB model offers only the extra memory and no extra processing power. Beyond the 8800GTS 640MB model- the costs are ridiculous as you can easily buy an E6600 and motherboard of your choice for the same price or less. There is also extremely foreboding news on the horizon that casts very credible doubt on the worthiness of any card in the 8800 line-up.

Intermediary cards that offer a significant increase in performance over an x1900GT; but not coming close to even the basic 8800GTS 320MB- remain too high in price to justify their purchase over the more recent, latter mentioned card.

Still irritating- new 8600GT cards that can cost as much as when I purchased my x1900GT almost 2 years ago; can barely outperform it- and in some variations are still apparently outdone by it.

If you ask me- today's graphics card market sucks... much more so than I've been accustomed to in the past.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
This pretty much sums up my line of thinking. I've replaced a dying X1800XT 512M with a $65 7600GS for the moment, I'm going to completely skip this generation of video hardware.

With the pre-dawn of DX10 too much premium being demanded for too little, IMO.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
The fact that there is no real DX10 title (no, patches do not count and tech demos also do not count) really makes me wonder if I shouldn't just wait as well. By the time any games come out that really use what DX10 has to offer the cards available today will not be the ideal choice for those titles. I guarantee that Nvidia's refresh or next offfering(s) will offer performance, especially in DX10 titles that makes current GTX/Ultra owners wish they waited a little longer. Sure some people can afford to buy a new card all the time, but I can't (and from reading the above post(s) I can tell that you can't really either).
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
I share your setiments. I recently posted a question as to vid cards, and am in the same delima as you. I am replacing a 6800 GT Golden Sample, and unless I spend 500+ I dont really think I will see much improvement. I've been looking at the 7950 512 and the Radeon x1950XT in the 200-250 range, and perhaps if I find a good deal on the 8800 GTS-maybe. The selection of decent mid-range cards has been stagnant for a year now, and it still kind of blows.

/sigh
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,702
1
0
if it makes you feel any better, i spent $600 on an
Asus X850XT a few years ago.

anyway, good post. it reads like an AT article.
 

Modular

Diamond Member
Jul 1, 2005
5,027
67
91
At this point there's no reason to upgrade. Refreshes are going to be coming out really soon which will result in lower prices across the board. Plus the fact that it sounds as if you are getting reasonable performance already with what you have. It's a waiting game at this point.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: swtethan
you can buy a 640 for $330






I have enjoyed my 640 for months now

Again I stand by my above statement that the newer cards will have performance in DX10 titles that makes you think it may have been wise to wait a little longer.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
same complaint, different year. remember $1000 x800xtpe's on ebay?

and pc gaming is really no different than any other recreational past time. other than a baseball glove than can last for decades, i can't think of many things that don't improve every year. ski equip, snowboard, golf clubs, boats, motorcycles... heck my $200+ softball bat only lasted a year..

gfx cards never have been "future proof", and never will be. frankly, the 8800 have been the highest performing part released in a long time, if not ever.if you're looking for perfection, you certainly need to look at another past time other than 3d gaming.

maybe tennis. a tennis racket (a good one) might last you a lifetime. you'll still need to buy new balls every so often tho...

nice rant, tho.

 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Nice write up.

Don't share the exact opinion though. The computer market has pretty much always been like this. At times you'll get great options, lots of variety and good value. At others, you'll have a dud-generation with a small number of overpriced options. If you must have the latest and greatest, you'll pay a premium, which isn't really anything you can complain about. The X1900 is still a good card and unless you must run at max resolutions (a premium), it will last until the next generation. Me, I'm sticking with my 7600gt which I got last year until I do a complete overhaul sometime next year.
 

raystorm

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
4,712
2
0
Nice well written rant. I've had my x1800xt -512mb for about a year and half and I'm still pleased with it. The only games that really don't run well on it are unoptimized 360->PC ports and thats fine as I have a 360 for those games.

I'll wait until Crysis is released and read all the benchmarks for that game in DX10 mode and decide if I should upgrade. I'll assume that Crysis will be the first true DX10 (though of course it has the DX9 stuff) so that game is pretty important I think for pc gaming and for nvidia/ati. It'll be a showcase title for videocards and I'm sure Nvidia and ATI are just licking their chops to show off how their hardware runs the game.


Of course the game could stink it up and perform poorly but I really doubt it at this point.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
To expand on what Imp said ^^^, although I do think the card world has been a bit stagnant, I also tend to agree it's how it's always been. When I bought my 6800 GT Golden Sample it was at the top of the pile at 550 (ouchie). But, we all know the general rule for upgrading is this: if you wait a LITLE longer for the next "set" of technologies to come out, you'll wait forever. I need to pull the trigger NOW, therefore will choose from what we have. Will something better come out and will prices drop in 6 months? Probably. But today's 600 8800 GTX or whatever will be replaced by a different $600 card, and so on.

*shrug*
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
How much was your CPU? You probably gained less from that purchase than you would with an 8800GTS 320 and I am willing to bet the 8800GTS 320 is cheaper than what you paid for that 6600.

 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
same complaint, different year. remember $1000 x800xtpe's on ebay?

and pc gaming is really no different than any other recreational past time. other than a baseball glove than can last for decades, i can't think of many things that don't improve every year. ski equip, snowboard, golf clubs, boats, motorcycles... heck my $200+ softball bat only lasted a year..

gfx cards never have been "future proof", and never will be. frankly, the 8800 have been the highest performing part released in a long time, if not ever.if you're looking for perfection, you certainly need to look at another past time other than 3d gaming.

maybe tennis. a tennis racket (a good one) might last you a lifetime. you'll still need to buy new balls every so often tho...

nice rant, tho.

But you're not grasping the main point I think.

See current new cards on the market are NOT so much faster to justify the price. The fact that the major feature to upgrade for (DX10) hasn't shown anything yet. That makes me feel like the 8800 generation of cards is a big waste of time. I used to say what you just said, but look at it this way. You have a x1900 that you bought last year. The games released in the past few months haven't really shown themselves to be unplayable on it. You want to upgrade for DX10 but the games that will take advantage of it aren't going to be available for a few months yet. By the time the new DX10 games are released there will be a new card to basically replace the 8800 at the high end. For someone like me, it's an easy decision at this point. Wait and see.
 

Trevante

Senior member
Jul 13, 2005
227
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
How much was your CPU? You probably gained less from that purchase than you would with an 8800GTS 320 and I am willing to bet the 8800GTS 320 is cheaper than what you paid for that 6600.

Doubt it...

8800 320 is about $300

6600 is about $220. Yes he might have gained less, but at the same time, even if he had picked an e4300 instead, that's still another $200 he'd have to drop just to get the 8800.

xDarc, just wondering, what case and CPU fan do you have?
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
To expand on what Imp said ^^^, although I do think the card world has been a bit stagnant, I also tend to agree it's how it's always been. When I bought my 6800 GT Golden Sample it was at the top of the pile at 550 (ouchie). But, we all know the general rule for upgrading is this: if you wait a LITLE longer for the next "set" of technologies to come out, you'll wait forever. I need to pull the trigger NOW, therefore will choose from what we have. Will something better come out and will prices drop in 6 months? Probably. But today's 600 8800 GTX or whatever will be replaced by a different $600 card, and so on.

*shrug*

Refer to my last post in regard to this. Your $600 card isn't doing what it's really capable of. DX10 is, IMO the only thing worth having a 8800 for and like I said by the time there are true DX10 titles out there it will likely be underperforming.

I'm not trying to say people buying 8800 cards now are doing something wrong. It's not for me to say. I'm just explaining my view on things right now. The way it was before, there was a game or games that were virtually unplayable on last year's cards and ran very slow unless you had a newer one. The way it's progressed as far as software is concerned, there is very little that I cannot play properly on last year's card. It's a case of the hardware outpacing what software developers can do. It's not easy to just whip up a new game engine in a few months to showcase a new card. The dev team still wants to try to sell their older engine, but it seems like the hardware development side prevents them from doing so and demands a new engine to show off new features.
 

tutelary

Banned
Feb 27, 2006
46
0
0
I stopped caring about games. My latest purchase: a $100 gigabyte 8500gt, which runs vista perfectly well and is hdcp for when the need arises.
 

Modular

Diamond Member
Jul 1, 2005
5,027
67
91
Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

But you're not grasping the main point I think.

See current new cards on the market are NOT so much faster to justify the price.



Anyone with an 8800GTX or GTS 640 would certainly disagree and with reason. The G80 basically owned any previous gen card in Dx9 hands down, no questions asked. For many, that was reason enough to upgrade.


For someone like me, it's an easy decision at this point. Wait and see.

At this point in time, this is true. But 4 months ago, G80 was a great buy.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: Modular
Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

But you're not grasping the main point I think.

See current new cards on the market are NOT so much faster to justify the price.



Anyone with an 8800GTX or GTS 640 would certainly disagree and with reason. The G80 basically owned any previous gen card in Dx9 hands down, no questions asked. For many, that was reason enough to upgrade.


For someone like me, it's an easy decision at this point. Wait and see.

At this point in time, this is true. But 4 months ago, G80 was a great buy.

A great buy with DX10 and no DX10 showcase? That's the problem I have. I'm betting that these cards will have low performance in DX10 vs the cards that will be out later this year. That's a given obviously, but when you nitpicked my first point let me explain something.

There is NO and I mean NO game that I don't get at least 30fps in on my X1900xt. At this time 2 years ago there was many games that killed my card and was almost unplayable forcing an upgrade at the time. We're talking 1 year and there is nothing that makes me want to upgrade, It used to be different. $600 for a few extra FPS is not worth it
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: tutelary
I stopped caring about games. My latest purchase: a $100 gigabyte 8500gt, which runs vista perfectly well and is hdcp for when the need arises.

Is that because you don't game much anymore at all or because there has been so few games taking advantage of the hardware that playing the "I must have the best" game is dumb?

The latter is my reason for not wanting to jump on any card right now. I was considering it late last month...I had my eye on an 8800gtx, but I thought it was better to wait now.
 

xDarc

Member
Jun 4, 2007
36
0
0
I understand the way things work in the PC components market. You buy something, shortly thereafter something new comes out- and it drops in price when that something new takes it's place...

That's not how today's graphics card market is working at all. That is the biggest problem. Not only are prices on many of the older cards not dropping accordingly; but the prices on the cards that are supposed to be taking their places are inflating dramatically.

I'm sure this kind of stuff has went on before in the mid 80's to early 90's; and I missed it. Wasn't building PCs then. So- to my memory this is the worst it's been; ever.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally posted by: xDarc
I understand the way things work in the PC components market. You buy something, shortly thereafter something new comes out- and it drops in price when that something new takes it's place...

That's not how today's graphics card market is working at all. That is the biggest problem. Not only are prices on many of the older cards not dropping accordingly; but the prices on the cards that are supposed to be taking their places are inflating dramatically.

I'm sure this kind of stuff has went on before in the mid 80's to early 90's; and I missed it. Wasn't building PCs then. So- to my memory this is the worst it's been; ever.

That's a pretty true statement. It's not like buying a TV where 4 years down the line it still plays all the programs properly. Standards on PC components refresh too quickly. This time however, the hardware gets better and the games haven't yet. Lets face it, the only reason to buy a card in the range of $500+ is for gaming.
 

gunblade

Golden Member
Nov 18, 2002
1,470
0
71
You want to know why?

It used to be back and forth but now the competition fails to catch up and thus Nvidia owns it.

They are milking the 8800 series before moving into G92 by November this year. I seriously doubt there will be another 8900 series. It will be 9xxx series before another significant architecture change to G100.


 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: xDarc




Why I Won't Buy an Nvidia 8800 Series Card:

The most obvious thing to me at my hesitance to grab one of these were the prices. The 8800GTS 320MB from one of the more reputable manufactuers is hovering around $290. (Newegg Price Info) This is the best bang for the buck the 8800 series has to offer- and for future proofing purposes; the deal may not be sweet enough. There are instances in benchmarking reviews of this card; where it gets beaten by less powerful and less expensive cards with more texture memory.

Beyond the 8800GTS 320MB in the 8800 series, the price increases much faster relative to the performance increase.

For about 40.00 more (290 to 330) you can have a 640MBGTS which eliminates texture memory concerns for current gaming.
And this seems to be at resolutions of 16x12 or higher.


The 8800 Ultra offers a vary narrow lead over an 8800GTX for an extra ~250 dollars or more; and only offers a 30% increase in performance over an 8800GTS 320MB for ~500 dollars more.

I'm also leery of some of the largest and power hungry cards to date. While the architecture of the G80 is real progress- they've chosen to stick with the 90nm fabrication process- this is the reason for the size, power consumption, and possibly the cost of these cards. Some excerpts from a review on the G80 that can be found in full here (Benchmarks)

You bought a 700Watt 87% PSU which leads me to believe that you were preparing yourself for considerably higher power consumption. A 550 Watt PSU from the same manufacturer of your 700Watter would have cost less no? But would have sufficed for any G80. Why didn't you go for the less expensive PSU since your on a quest to get the most bang for your buck? (who isn't these days.)
If you're looking to buy a card for it's longevity (to last the longest in terms of new game playability) you need to bite the bullet and spend the cash for the current best. (not the ultra, that is just not even an option). The same thing will happen if you wait on the 8900's. New games will come out to stress those as well. And so on, and so on.



"The thing is, the G80 isn't manufactured on a next-generation chip fabrication process. After some bad past experiences (read: GeForce FX), Nvidia prefers not to tackle a new GPU design and a new fab process at the same time. There's too much risk involved. So they have instead asked TSMC to manufacture the G80 on its familiar 90nm process, with the result being the single largest chip I believe I've ever seen."

Still not clear why this is a concern of yours. What does it matter? Of course a 80 or 65nm "G80" would consume less power and be cheaper to manufacture, but look at it the other way. If nvidia had started off with a new architecture going first to 80 or 65nm, we might not have had a quality card like G80 currently is. For what it is, it is very decent on power considering the enormous jump in performance it offers. And factor in the PSU you purchased, well, it should not even be an issue for you unless I am missing something.

"Nvidia's isn't handing out exact die size measurements, but they claim to get about 80 chips gross per wafer. Notice that's a gross number. Any chip of this size has got to be incredibly expensive to manufacture, because the possibility of defects over such a large die area will be exponentially higher than with a GPU like the G71 or R580. That's going to make for some very expensive chips."

You are speaking of price per core depending on the number of cores yielded on a single wafer, yes? A bit of news. Nvidia, or any other company does not have to charge less for a 65nm core than it does a 90nm core. I mean, they usually do, but there is not enough pressure from competition these days. I am speaking of AMD.

"The chip is still too large and consumes too much power at idle, but this architecture should be a sweetheart once it makes the transition to a 65nm fab process, which is where it really belongs."

I agree, it would be sweet if graphics cards of today didn't gorge such large amounts of power. 65nm should help this quite a bit.

And exactly how future proof are these cards? There is already some evidence out there to suggest Nvidia is basically sitting on the next refresh of cards in the 8900 series that will be available on an 80nm process with faster GDDR4 memory for less money. http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/428/11/ I don't know about you; but if I'm going to spend around 600 dollars on a graphics card- I'd be plenty pissed off if a new version makes not just a small step; but a huge leap ahead at a lower price in less than six months.

Never buy a graphics card for "tomorrow". But it for now. As Canaim stated, there is no such thing as a future proof system. I believe there is "Future-Resistance", and that is only if you spend a fortune on the best of the best. So, buy for right now and enjoy all the DX9 games out there in full splendor. DX10 performance is unknown for G80 or R600 currently.
Patched DX9 games into DX10 really can't be utilized for DX10 benchmarking. We need a ground up DX10 title.


Lastly- in the news it seems like AMD and Nvidia are facing over 50 lawsuits that allege price fixing. There are snips and reposts of the news all over enthuiast hardware sites. (Newegg Price Info) There's also a forum discussion on suspected price fixing that dates back a while here: (Price Fixing Thread) With so many lawsuits pending concerning price fixing; it is very likely at least one of them will have some effect on the market in the consumer's favor.

Price fixing is something I truly loathe. If this all turns out to be true, I would be the first to initiate a boycott of all AMD/ATI, Nvidia products. I like to pay for the "worth" of things, not for what I'm forced to pay out of others greed.

If I were you, I would just sit and wait out until G81 or whatever they are going to call it arrives.

BTW, I'd just like to add that you are not alone in a lot of your thinking here. There is just a balanced line that each individual has to get as close as they can to, in order to be happy with their purchases. If not, buyers remorse is inevitable. The rest of your system looks very nice and although you bought each part at the best time you thought possible, it still must have cost a nice penny. Top it off now with a 640GTS, or wait on the 8900's. That X1950GT should last you until then
 
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