Why Update Windows?

Amitojc

Member
Dec 4, 2009
186
0
0
Hi,
I had a debate with my boss over why you should update windows. I am a strong advocate of updating windows 7 because of security protocols and just to make it run more efficiency. He is under the belief that all the updates screw up your computer (something I have never encountered) or there is no reason if you have an anti virus. I think that it is important to have both to keep malicious software away, but he does make a good point. With an updated anti virus still protect you completely or for the most part from malicious software and virus instead of updating windows? I decided to post it on this form for people with more technical knowledge could help us.
 
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notposting

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2005
3,485
28
91
You need the updates to patch holes in the system that can let something in to disable the AV.

Or put it this way...the AV is in the window frame, protecting things, but what if there is a whole brick missing from next to the Window(s)?? But yeah, he's an idiot.
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
3
81
I've had people tell me to stay away from Windows Updates since the XP days. It's just mind-boggling how stupid that is.
 

TakeNoPrisoners

Platinum Member
Jun 3, 2011
2,600
1
81
Those are the type of people that get viruses all the time. Not updating windows is unsafe and can leave massive security holes. Many updates are actually very important.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
He's an old-timer. At one point in time MS had a habit of deploying HORRIBLY borked updates. In the early days of XP it got to where small shops would block wupdates and do it manually once the updates were confirmed as to not screw anything up.


It's much more rare nowadays, although it does still happen.


You guys need to be running WSUS.
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
2
0
but he does make a good point

no he doesn't

Case in point - the 0 day Duqu. No malware/AV product can detect it. It's vulnerability in windows seems to be the freaking font engine!

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/advisory/2639658

http://www.symantec.com/connect/w32_duqu_precursor_next_stuxnet

Even running the best AV and firewall in the world will not prevent this infection.

Now granted also - MS hasn't fixed it yet from what I've heard......So wait a bit before you bring up this example.

I've never had any real issues doing updates. Using WSUS I'm able to pick and choose what is sent and those that might affect production (such as IE security updates) get tested first.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
You can try welcoming your boss to 2011 and tell him windows has gotten better since windows 95.
 

F-5

Junior Member
Sep 30, 2011
18
6
81
I've always installed Windows updates as soon as they're released no questions asked. I also run NIS and run Live Update before I launch anything just to make sure it's up to date. One thing that has always bothered me is it seems like a never ending update cycle with Microsoft. In other words, is the OS ever going to be considered safe and not need 15 updates per month to patch the vulnerabilities that were discovered or reported? It would seem to me at some point they'd have it shored up so solid that it would be bullet proof, but maybe that's in an ideal world. It just seems for every patch they release two more problems are found and it's essentially a losing battle as the malcontents are firing off malware shots faster than Microsoft engineers can patch their OS.
 

MacLeod1592

Member
Aug 19, 2010
71
0
0
My dad is the exact same way. His old computer of 10 years had XP on it and he refused to ever let it update. He was still using IE6 for God's sake!!!

As a result, he got tons of malware, all kinds of things screwing up and general sluggishness.

In contrast, my wife's computer is 10 years old and the same type also with XP. I updated everytime it prompted me to and it is still running fairly smooth to this day and I only got some malware ONCE in a decade! The puny Pentium 4 is pathetic and wont even run Youtube videos full screen but hey, XP still works!

So yeah, update everytime it tells you to.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
no he doesn't

Case in point - the 0 day Duqu. No malware/AV product can detect it.

They do now, in point of fact. It's a very advanced attack, though... some researchers find evidence that it may have been in development for years. The stakes must be pretty high, whatever they're after. I noted from Symantec's write-up that in the entire process, only one unencrypted file ever gets written to disk, and I believe it's the driver file. With a VALID digital signature from a legit hardware vendor.

Now granted also - MS hasn't fixed it yet from what I've heard......So wait a bit before you bring up this example.

They have a Fix-It that prevents access to the vulnerable component. Not a patch proper, but it gets the job done. The noted downside is inability to export to PDF from Microsoft Office. You can deploy this via Group Policy if you're so inclined, or whatever method works best for you.


Going back to the original topic, yeah, that guy needs to get up to speed. Run Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer on his system and let its SEVERE RISK assessment stare him in the face for a while. I realize everyone likes to cling to old stereotypes about Microsoft, but dude is being foolish.

One thing that has always bothered me is it seems like a never ending update cycle with Microsoft. In other words, is the OS ever going to be considered safe and not need 15 updates per month to patch the vulnerabilities that were discovered or reported? It would seem to me at some point they'd have it shored up so solid that it would be bullet proof, but maybe that's in an ideal world.

This is why Microsoft's SDL is focused not just at reducing the number of bugs, but their severity, and overall mitigating features that provide de facto damage containment and make reliable exploits much more difficult to achieve. It didn't win them any popularity contests, look at all the griping about Vista and UAC and not being an unrestricted Admin anymore, but they did it anyway.

It just seems for every patch they release two more problems are found and it's essentially a losing battle as the malcontents are firing off malware shots faster than Microsoft engineers can patch their OS.

If you look at infection rates on various Windows OSes in the SIR v11, it looks rather the other way around. And keep in mind Windows is the OS that gets handed over to children to pilot willy-nilly all over the internets looking for bewbies:



Looking at the methods of attack:



...the predominant vector is the user, of course, and user education (or a removal of their Admin/execution privileges) is a must.

Aside from user interaction, I see two attack vectors that can be eliminated arbitrarily simply by disabling AutoRun, which Microsoft has a Fix-It for (or of course you can do that via Group Policy). Of the remaining ones, routine updating of the installed apps (Java, Flash Player, Reader, media players, etc) combined with normal updating of Windows and other Microsoft stuff eliminate nearly every other option on the chart.

In real life, if a user stumbles into an exploit pack from poisoned search results or a hacked website, the bad guys aren't even going after Microsoft vulns anymore, other than the ancient MDAC vuln. They're after vulnerable versions of Java (remove it, or patch if you have to keep it), vulnerable and unsandboxed versions of Reader (switch to v10 for sandboxing), and a variety of other stuff that you can almost certainly remove or patch. So the third-party stuff needs to get maintained.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,450
10,119
126
I have to run an old version of Java, because my RAID controller's administration tools are written in Java, and they bundle with an old version.

I tried updating to a current java version, and then the RAID controller tools said that they couldn't run.

The good news is, the older version that installs, gives you a choice to install the IE and Firefox plugins. Which I do not.
 

pandemonium

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
1,777
76
91
For business purposes update as quickly as possible. Not only does it proactively protect your assets, it also covers your butt from being held liable to much fault. I wouldn't play with fire when it comes to a business viewpoint; that's purely irresponsible.
 

WildW

Senior member
Oct 3, 2008
986
20
81
evilpicard.com
I've noticed that if you install XP on an old machine it will often feel really surprisingly snappy and fast, until you start installing service packs and Windows Updates and it goes all sluggish again.

Now granted, you're going to be insecure so its foolish not to update, unless . . . At my last job we had some computers that weren't allowed to be connected to the internet, and so they never got updated from the XP SP1 that they came installed with. They were still in use when I left, maybe 7 years old and never reinstalled, and didn't need it either.
 

dclive

Elite Member
Oct 23, 2003
5,626
2
81
I've noticed that if you install XP on an old machine it will often feel really surprisingly snappy and fast, until you start installing service packs and Windows Updates and it goes all sluggish again.

Now granted, you're going to be insecure so its foolish not to update, unless . . . At my last job we had some computers that weren't allowed to be connected to the internet, and so they never got updated from the XP SP1 that they came installed with. They were still in use when I left, maybe 7 years old and never reinstalled, and didn't need it either.

I can't disagree more with both paragraphs.
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
I haven't updated since I installed SP3 over my SP2 disc in Windows XP. Only problem I've had over the past 8 years was a dead power supply.. completely unrelated..

I just can't believe you guys actually TRUST Microsoft that much.. Call me a skeptic, but seriously.. what incentive do they actually have to allow people like me to continue using old versions of their OS? As a business, their ONLY incentive is to get me to buy a new product. So I don't think its that outrageous to assume that they might add in bloated shit to their updates to deliberately bog down my system slowly but surely over time, so that upgrading to a fresh version of Windows would one day be appealing.

If it works, I don't fix it.. there is absolutely nothing foolish about being hesitant to tinker with things that are working exactly the way you need them to work.

I just don't buy into this whole idea that MS actually cares for you, and wants to protect you even in their older version OS's. It goes completely AGAINST their financial interests.. The only thing I currently have installed is Malwarebytes, which call me crazy, but I trust far more than I trust MS.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
...
I just can't believe you guys actually TRUST Microsoft that much.. Call me a skeptic, but seriously.. what incentive do they actually have to allow people like me to continue using old versions of their OS? As a business, their ONLY incentive is to get me to buy a new product. So I don't think its that outrageous to assume that they might add in bloated shit to their updates to deliberately bog down my system slowly but surely over time, so that upgrading to a fresh version of Windows would one day be appealing.
...
If they show a customer, which could be a business, that they're willing to fix their existing stuff, that customer is going to be less likely to try anything and everything to allow a switch to Unix or Linux, or some other operating system.



If it works, I don't fix it.. there is absolutely nothing foolish about being hesitant to tinker with things that are working exactly the way you need them to work.
That's just it. There are bugs, and in some cases, glaring security problems.
Therefore, it's not working.
Therefore, they issue fixes.

And sometimes, "working" might be good enough for now...but why not try to make it work better? Just walking or running everywhere also worked, but we eventually found it preferable to use things like bicycles, cars, trains, or airplanes.


The only thing I currently have installed is Malwarebytes, which call me crazy, but I trust far more than I trust MS.
It's free software though. You get what you pay for - so why trust them either?
 
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dclive

Elite Member
Oct 23, 2003
5,626
2
81
I haven't updated since I installed SP3 over my SP2 disc in Windows XP. Only problem I've had over the past 8 years was a dead power supply.. completely unrelated..

I just can't believe you guys actually TRUST Microsoft that much.. Call me a skeptic, but seriously.. what incentive do they actually have to allow people like me to continue using old versions of their OS? As a business, their ONLY incentive is to get me to buy a new product. So I don't think its that outrageous to assume that they might add in bloated shit to their updates to deliberately bog down my system slowly but surely over time, so that upgrading to a fresh version of Windows would one day be appealing.

If it works, I don't fix it.. there is absolutely nothing foolish about being hesitant to tinker with things that are working exactly the way you need them to work.

I just don't buy into this whole idea that MS actually cares for you, and wants to protect you even in their older version OS's. It goes completely AGAINST their financial interests.. The only thing I currently have installed is Malwarebytes, which call me crazy, but I trust far more than I trust MS.

Wow. The paranoia and lack of knowledge of the problems of an unsecured box displayed here is stunning.

People keep saying if it works don't fix it - well, it *doesn't* work, because it's vulnerable to exploits, and that's why you need to patch it.

I can only imagine how long it would take to be exploited if that machine were put on the public internet. Please don't bring that virus-attack-waiting-to-happen to any of my networks.
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
Wow. The paranoia and lack of knowledge of the problems of an unsecured box displayed here is stunning.

People keep saying if it works don't fix it - well, it *doesn't* work, because it's vulnerable to exploits, and that's why you need to patch it.

I can only imagine how long it would take to be exploited if that machine were put on the public internet. Please don't bring that virus-attack-waiting-to-happen to any of my networks.

Sounds like you're the paranoid one.. especially with that last paragraph. This computer has been up and running for 4 years, I have my original rig built 8 years ago.. still running too.. if these "exploits" were such a huge deal, you would think I would have encountered at least a single issue over the past 8 years since I've been building my rigs, but I haven't.

You guys are basically telling people like me.. hey, your system works 100%, does EVERY SINGLE THING you want it to, performance is perfect, you have 0 issues what-so-ever.. but yeah, you should totally "fix" that thing
 

dclive

Elite Member
Oct 23, 2003
5,626
2
81
Sounds like you're the paranoid one.. especially with that last paragraph. This computer has been up and running for 4 years, I have my original rig built 8 years ago.. still running too.. if these "exploits" were such a huge deal, you would think I would have encountered at least a single issue over the past 8 years since I've been building my rigs, but I haven't.

You guys are basically telling people like me.. hey, your system works 100%, does EVERY SINGLE THING you want it to, performance is perfect, you have 0 issues what-so-ever.. but yeah, you should totally "fix" that thing

Yes.

And if you didn't have a router between your PC and the internet, which was the point I was making, your box would have long since had another owner.

If you want to live on the edge, feel free to do so. But that's very, very foolish.
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
Yes.

And if you didn't have a router between your PC and the internet, which was the point I was making, your box would have long since had another owner.

If you want to live on the edge, feel free to do so. But that's very, very foolish.

Living on the knife's edge of life is what its all about..

But my router is actually serving as protection?

I will admit I am very ignorant when it comes to this sort of thing.. but for a good reason.. I have never ran into an issue related to this. I frequent the same two dozen or so websites and don't venture out.. but maybe its time for me to realize I've just been really lucky?

I've had to help 3 people over the past 2 years with their virus/malware problems.. All 3 contracted these virus or malware from opening either an attachment from an e-mail or getting duped into clicking one of those bizarre looking links on facebook that link to something like "askdj.xu" but have clever titles like "bin laden assassination video".. so I simply showed them how to reformat and not to fall for these traps. (ie: Fedex will NEVER e-mail you attachments.. hover over the link before you click it)

Lastly, does anyone know where these things come from? Who is sitting around making viruses and malware? My friend suggested its Apple, but that's a bit conspiratorial.
 
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