Why Vista?

[apoppin]

you can *analyze* it all you want ... diagram it if it makes you feel better ... you are seeing what you want to see

*everyone else* gets it

what * i did not say* and no one else feels *accused* by me since *i ACCUSED NO ONE*

you are taking a *VERY GENERAL and casual remark* and twisting it into something of *evil intent* ... this is NOT the only forum i visit

although i attempted to *explain* ... *many times* you REFUSE to ACCEPT what i am saying and appear to be on a *personal crusade* to DIVIDE the forum

this is *disruptive* and although i don't have to since i feel i have done *nothing wrong* ... i will *apologize* for making an unclear remark [or remarks] and i meant no offense to you or anyone else in video forum

now if you want *more* than that or need for me to explain further


PLEASE

and i am *asking*

send me a PM and we can work out our *differences* AWAY from the forum ... where these *personal issues* belong


and BEAR with me as i am leaving for work and will not be able to respond till i get home this PM [PST]

OK?

edited twice
finally

 

[adairusmc]

I have been using vista since monday, initially running the 100.51 drivers from guru3d, now running the 100.59 drivers, and everything seems to be working great. I had one issue when I upgraded my XP install to vista, but I reformatted, and that issue went away (I had a problem whenver I opened a window to browse for a file in a browser, the machine would shut down).

 

[josh6079]

*everyone else* gets it

I don't.

Aikouka's comprehension of that statement is pretty much the way I read it. There are only a certain number of posters that you "trust" and since they (whoever they are) haven't complimented Vista yet, everyone else complimenting it is a viral marketer.

I'm sorry if I've read that wrong, but perhaps you should clarify that statement rather than say, "everyone else gets it". However, *if* you do so, please send me a PM as well. I certainly don't want to add to the derailment considering two are tangoing just fine.

 

[Zebo]

Does anyone else find it ironic one of the main selling points of Vista for us, dx10, a gaming API while at the same time vista actually degrades gaming performance? More I think about it Vista can go straight to hell until they improve performance or Crysis comes out looking much different running on the dx10 code.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Does anyone else find it ironic one of the main selling points of Vista for us, dx10, a gaming API while at the same time vista actually degrades gaming performance? More I think about it Vista can go straight to hell until they improve performance or Crysis comes out looking much different running on the dx10 code.

DirectX 10 is not like previous API's. It is completely new, and it is new in the way it handles shaders and allocates resources. Therefore drivers are completely new. Nothing like this has ever been written before. Performance will improve vastly as devs get better at programming for it and as the architecture becomes more and more refined.

IMO, Vista is a great start, however it was rushed. It shouldn't have been released NEARLY this early. They left out WinFS, drivers are no where near ready, there are Wide amounts of bugs and performance problems. Albeit a lot of these aren't due to Vista, but rather the devs not being able to refine there drivers and what not. If Vista were released Q3 '07 or even Q4 with WinFS, and with all the drivers written and ready to be used, Vista would be everything that we would want to upgrade to.

-Kevin

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Does anyone else find it ironic one of the main selling points of Vista for us, dx10, a gaming API while at the same time vista actually degrades gaming performance? More I think about it Vista can go straight to hell until they improve performance or Crysis comes out looking much different running on the dx10 code.

The Anandtech article shows that it's either just a bit worse, equal to better than XP. The acronym "YMMV" probably applies here.

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
DirectX 10 is not like previous API's. It is completely new, and it is new in the way it handles shaders and allocates resources. Therefore drivers are completely new. Nothing like this has ever been written before. Performance will improve vastly as devs get better at programming for it and as the architecture becomes more and more refined.

As far as I know, Vista still uses the legacy APIs to run older DirectX code, so it's not really DirectX 10 that's causing issues, it's really the new driver model and the graphic drivers. (More than likely the newer driver model simply requiring more work on drivers to get them up to snuff).

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
IMO, Vista is a great start, however it was rushed. It shouldn't have been released NEARLY this early. They left out WinFS, drivers are no where near ready, there are Wide amounts of bugs and performance problems. Albeit a lot of these aren't due to Vista, but rather the devs not being able to refine there drivers and what not. If Vista were released Q3 '07 or even Q4 with WinFS, and with all the drivers written and ready to be used, Vista would be everything that we would want to upgrade to.

I really don't care much about WinFS being removed when it comes to my personal PC. The best feature I could've seen about WinFS was almost a software raid-esque idea since WinFS was really just NTFS + SQL, you could merge logical drives together and have them represented in the same "drive." But that'd only be necessary on my server PC and not really on my gaming PC.

I wonder if it's possible for someone to make a quasi-WinFS using faux HDD drivers (kind of like Daemon Tools does with a faux optical drive) to create imaginary drive(s) that have contents based on a database that determines file location.

You can't forget though that drivers were somewhat of an issue for the XP migration as well. Thankfully, using 2000 drivers wasn't out of the question in most cases so as long as you had a 2000 driver or a XP driver, you were set. Vista isn't like that, so we can't say much for it like that.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Zebo
Does anyone else find it ironic one of the main selling points of Vista for us, dx10, a gaming API while at the same time vista actually degrades gaming performance? More I think about it Vista can go straight to hell until they improve performance or Crysis comes out looking much different running on the dx10 code.

The Anandtech article shows that it's either just a bit worse, equal to better than XP. The acronym "YMMV" probably applies here.

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
DirectX 10 is not like previous API's. It is completely new, and it is new in the way it handles shaders and allocates resources. Therefore drivers are completely new. Nothing like this has ever been written before. Performance will improve vastly as devs get better at programming for it and as the architecture becomes more and more refined.

As far as I know, Vista still uses the legacy APIs to run older DirectX code, so it's not really DirectX 10 that's causing issues, it's really the new driver model and the graphic drivers. (More than likely the newer driver model simply requiring more work on drivers to get them up to snuff).

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
IMO, Vista is a great start, however it was rushed. It shouldn't have been released NEARLY this early. They left out WinFS, drivers are no where near ready, there are Wide amounts of bugs and performance problems. Albeit a lot of these aren't due to Vista, but rather the devs not being able to refine there drivers and what not. If Vista were released Q3 '07 or even Q4 with WinFS, and with all the drivers written and ready to be used, Vista would be everything that we would want to upgrade to.

I really don't care much about WinFS being removed when it comes to my personal PC. The best feature I could've seen about WinFS was almost a software raid-esque idea since WinFS was really just NTFS + SQL, you could merge logical drives together and have them represented in the same "drive." But that'd only be necessary on my server PC and not really on my gaming PC.

I wonder if it's possible for someone to make a quasi-WinFS using faux HDD drivers (kind of like Daemon Tools does with a faux optical drive) to create imaginary drive(s) that have contents based on a database that determines file location.

You can't forget though that drivers were somewhat of an issue for the XP migration as well. Thankfully, using 2000 drivers wasn't out of the question in most cases so as long as you had a 2000 driver or a XP driver, you were set. Vista isn't like that, so we can't say much for it like that.

Well they have legacy in a sense in DX 10. But IIRC, it is coded differently. They didn't just grab the old Direct X files in a sense. They rewrote even the old ones for the DX 10 API.

As for WinFS, outside of of that weren't there other things that gave a greater sense of a migration from the NT File System?

Just another though to add on to my "rushed" theory. If they would have waited and done all of that, by that time DX 10 games would have been released as well.

-Kevin

 

[Munky]

As much as I wasn't enthuiastic about Vista before, I'm even more inclined against switching to Vista after reading the AT article. Slower network performance, bloated memory usage, and worst of all - slower gaming performance in gpu-boud situations, where it really matters. So much for the "upto 8x faster performance" due to the more efficient driver model, as if I ever believed it in the first place. If anything, MS will have to pay me to get me to switch, otherwise I'm keeping XP for as long as it serves my needs.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
IMO, Vista is a great start, however it was rushed. It shouldn't have been released NEARLY this early. They left out WinFS, drivers are no where near ready, there are Wide amounts of bugs and performance problems. Albeit a lot of these aren't due to Vista, but rather the devs not being able to refine there drivers and what not. If Vista were released Q3 '07 or even Q4 with WinFS, and with all the drivers written and ready to be used, Vista would be everything that we would want to upgrade to.

I really don't care much about WinFS being removed when it comes to my personal PC. The best feature I could've seen about WinFS was almost a software raid-esque idea since WinFS was really just NTFS + SQL, you could merge logical drives together and have them represented in the same "drive." But that'd only be necessary on my server PC and not really on my gaming PC.

I wonder if it's possible for someone to make a quasi-WinFS using faux HDD drivers (kind of like Daemon Tools does with a faux optical drive) to create imaginary drive(s) that have contents based on a database that determines file location.

You can't forget though that drivers were somewhat of an issue for the XP migration as well. Thankfully, using 2000 drivers wasn't out of the question in most cases so as long as you had a 2000 driver or a XP driver, you were set. Vista isn't like that, so we can't say much for it like that.

I was under the impression that WinFS has its own specialized API that operates on a totally different level than the file system drivers, and the "FS" part of the moniker is (a) a holdover from the pre-alpha days when MSFT devs actually tried to build a database file system, and/or (b) an attempt to capitalize on the "geek factor" thereof. WinFS's API was being backported to Windows XP, last I heard, so that third-party devs could write software for both OS's that uses the advanced functionality of WinFS.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: munky
As much as I wasn't enthuiastic about Vista before, I'm even more inclined against switching to Vista after reading the AT article. Slower network performance, bloated memory usage, and worst of all - slower gaming performance in gpu-boud situations, where it really matters. So much for the "upto 8x faster performance" due to the more efficient driver model, as if I ever believed it in the first place. If anything, MS will have to pay me to get me to switch, otherwise I'm keeping XP for as long as it serves my needs.

Actually, I believe the improved efficiency claims were in reference to DX10 w/ mature WDDM drivers, not to a DX9 virtualization layer running on immature WDDM drivers. For moderate gaming, give it six months and see what happens. But then, that's probably what you were going to do anyway...

 

[Gamingphreek]

So much for the "upto 8x faster performance" due to the more efficient driver model, as if I ever believed it in the first place.

It was just released. Not only that, they explicitly stated that OGL drivers are not near finalized yet. DX drivers are much better but no where near as refined as the DX 9 drivers were. Give it time....I'm not saying 8x, but I would definitely think that we will see minor performance improvements in the future over XP.

As for your other points you have to take into account that it, as well as drivers, have just been released. Give them time to refine. On a side note, the memory quires marginally more; and what you get with that is much better memory management than XP.

-Kevin

 

[Gamingphreek]

What was the feature in Windows or something that was supposed to replace the BIOS? Does anyone know what I'm talking about here (The successor to a BIOS)?

-Kevin

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Well they have legacy in a sense in DX 10. But IIRC, it is coded differently. They didn't just grab the old Direct X files in a sense. They rewrote even the old ones for the DX 10 API.

As for WinFS, outside of of that weren't there other things that gave a greater sense of a migration from the NT File System?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winfs

That's a pretty good article on WinFS if you want to give it the (long) read. I skimmed over it and it's definitely an interesting design. I'd really have to personally try it on my personal machine to see how useful it could be.

I went and researched a bit on sub-DirectX 10 in Vista and found quite a bit of info on exactly what's going on.

To sum up what I've read:

Direct3d 9 does exist in Windows Vista. It has been modified slightly to allow it to work with the new driver model, yet it still retains all of the same features.

Direct3d 9Ex also exists in Windows Vista. It's essentially Direct3d 9 + graphic driver model changes. Here's a quote about it:

"The primary reason for creating the new Direct3D 9Ex API was to allow full access to the new capabilities of WDDM while maintaining compatibility for existing Direct3D applications. The new 3D desktop and many Windows Vista-specific applications make use of this version of Direct3D 9"

Then there's Direct3d 10. We all know about this bad boy .

Source: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau...9_c/Graphics_APIs_in_Windows_Vista.asp

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
What was the feature in Windows or something that was supposed to replace the BIOS? Does anyone know what I'm talking about here (The successor to a BIOS)?

EFI?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: EarthwormJim
I think Vista's main problem is Windows XP. XP was Microsoft's best Windows for home users ever.

A shiny new interface and the other smaller features (disregarding DX10 for now), don't really seem to warrant the $200+ price.

I think you said it well. The only way to get people to buy a new OS over XP, is to not enable DX10 on XP and make it a Vista only thing, then hype DX10 til the cows come home.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to add DX10 to XP? Or does it require something that only Vista has?

It's an API, like OpenGL. It can be ported to XP, but like you said, it's Vista's main selling point aside from Aero.

Yeah, that makes sense. I have little doubt that MS wouldn't ever release a DX10 patch for XP, but I wonder if anyone else could without getting their butts sued off.

Dx10 requires the new display driver model to function. They actually did make a lot of changes under the hood to the way graphics work in Vista, most to the better I think. They moved most of the display subsystem into user-mode, which should eliminate all of those good old nv4disp.dll type-BSODs that buggy games/video drivers would occasionally throw. The driver change also enables applications to more easily tap into the GPU for offloading, so we will hopefully see more Vista-optimized apps in the future for things like Video encoding/decoding, 2D compositing, etc.

It probably would have been possible to backport the driver model into XP, but it probably would have been a lot of work/money to get it working, cause tons of customer confusion and compatability issues, and not had any financial benefit to MS. If I were them, I probably would hold it off for the next version of Windows, too.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: aka1nas
It probably would have been possible to backport the driver model into XP, but it probably would have been a lot of work/money to get it working, cause tons of customer confusion and compatability issues, and not had any financial benefit to MS. If I were them, I probably would hold it off for the next version of Windows, too.

You're probably right here... porting the new driver model into Windows XP would've just been a mess and really not worth it for Microsoft. The new driver model works with a HAL-less system, so then you'd have to remove HAL in Windows XP. Removing HAL requires you to make other changes to the OS when it comes to hardware interaction. So essentially, Microsoft would almost be making Windows XP into Vista just by porting the new graphic model.

 

[evolucion8]

Aikouka, you are not the only one that had used Vista, I used Vista Ultimate X86 for 5 days and I didn't find anything that can justify an upgrade right now, other than DX10 and Aero Interface, XP will suit me for a while. Once everything is settled up and stable, then I will go for it, the performance of it was as fast as on XP in my system, is a memory hog of course and playing DX games caused my PC to freeze many times, but it was like 1 month ago using the ATi Beta Drivers, surely the official ones probably the experience will be different, so do what appopin asked you, solve your differences in PM and stop flooding the topic with nonsense bashing. Thanks and have a nice day.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
Aikouka, you are not the only one that had used Vista, I used Vista Ultimate X86 for 5 days and I didn't find anything that can justify an upgrade right now, other than DX10 and Aero Interface, XP will suit me for a while. Once everything is settled up and stable, then I will go for it, the performance of it was as fast as on XP in my system, is a memory hog of course and playing DX games caused my PC to freeze many times, but it was like 1 month ago using the ATi Beta Drivers, surely the official ones probably the experience will be different, so do what appopin asked you, solve your differences in PM and stop flooding the topic with nonsense bashing. Thanks and have a nice day.

He is providing good information and has completely dropped any personal attacks. I personally found his comment very interesting regarding the new DX, HAL, and EFI.

Things are fine now guys.

-Kevin

 

[LintMan]

Originally posted by: josh6079

*everyone else* gets it

I don't.

Aikouka's comprehension of that statement is pretty much the way I read it. There are only a certain number of posters that you "trust" and since they (whoever they are) haven't complimented Vista yet, everyone else complimenting it is a viral marketer.

I'm sorry if I've read that wrong, but perhaps you should clarify that statement rather than say, "everyone else gets it". However, *if* you do so, please send me a PM as well. I certainly don't want to add to the derailment considering two are tangoing just fine.

I know what apoppin is saying, and I don't think he was calling everyone pro-vista here a MS plant, but the wording can be interpreted several ways. I initially misunderstood it also, so maybe I can explain better, and hopefully settle this...

apoppin wrote:
i'm giving it some time before i pay to be a beta tester for MS and when the *real forum people* that i *trust* - not MS viral *seeds* giving a knee-jerk thumbsup - on these forum report it is *mature* and relativly *fixed*, i will buy it ...

Elsewhere in this thread, apoppin explains:

Despite whaty i *did not say* - keep in mind that MS employed AEG long before nvidia and they are the *original viral marketeers*

i do speak of people who i *trust* ... and you are certainly not one of them as you are one of the biggest hype-swallower here.

So basically Microsoft has hired a viral marketing company as part of their Vista marketing. While some of that viral stuff is forum posting, viral marketers mostly do things like sponsor positive glowing reviews on web sites and blogs - stuff unrelated to this forum, but part of the overall Vista hype. apoppin then says that he doesn't trust Aikouka because he thinks Aikouka's bought into the hype in a big way.

So keeping all that in mind, let me reinterpret what apoppin said, as I understand it (apoppin, my apologies if it's not how you meant it):

"I will wait for the people I trust in this forum to say Vista is mature/fixed and not pay any attention to all that viral marketing hype out there, or to those here (who I don't trust) who've swallowed that hype."

Them's fightin' words? Is this calling everyone who's pro-vista an MS seed? No, I don't think so.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
Aikouka, you are not the only one that had used Vista, I used Vista Ultimate X86 for 5 days and I didn't find anything that can justify an upgrade right now, other than DX10 and Aero Interface, XP will suit me for a while. Once everything is settled up and stable, then I will go for it, the performance of it was as fast as on XP in my system, is a memory hog of course and playing DX games caused my PC to freeze many times, but it was like 1 month ago using the ATi Beta Drivers, surely the official ones probably the experience will be different, so do what appopin asked you, solve your differences in PM and stop flooding the topic with nonsense bashing. Thanks and have a nice day.

Well, first off, I didn't just list myself .

Second, you've listed having issues with DirectX applications, I have had nothing but GREAT experiences when I had MOUNDS of problems in Windows XP. You can do a search for a thread I made detailing PC lock-ups involving World of Warcraft in Windows XP. I haven't experienced a single lock up yet or any issues (other than the long boot ups). This makes me quite happy as I was getting a bit tired of the lock ups and having to play WoW on my HDTV (believe it or not, it's not comfortable nor is it as nice as using my LCDs).

Third, I was trying to reach clarification with my posts. Based on what I've read, it's simply Apoppin writing one thing but meaning to use a different word. Such as when he said he never "said" that, I think he really meant that he never "meant" it. The replacement of "said" gives it an entirely different meaning and would've sparked me to ask for a clarification instead of remarking that he did in fact say it.

Also, I press the issue of why not to trust me? I may be brash, but I don't recall myself flagrantly posting crap dealing with showing anything relating to fanboyism. My preference in nVidia, for example, is purely based on the strong dissatisfaction created by ATi from previous experiences. Just like with food, it's hard to overcome those bad experiences. Although, nVidia's drivers have been good for me in the past; however, that opinion is kind of starting to wane a bit back toward neutral with the current activities. I also have no allegiance in the heated AMD vs Intel debate... I run whatever's faster .

Oh and I just found the Resource Monitor in Vista :Q. This thing is nice (although you could probably find a 3rd party tool to do it). It's like the Performance tab on crack. But wow, this thing gives so much information compared to the old tools. Although looking at it more, I'm a little disappointed that it doesn't list the ports that things are connecting on in the Network section. It does list the addresses that applications are connecting to.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: josh6079

*everyone else* gets it

I don't.

Aikouka's comprehension of that statement is pretty much the way I read it. There are only a certain number of posters that you "trust" and since they (whoever they are) haven't complimented Vista yet, everyone else complimenting it is a viral marketer.

I'm sorry if I've read that wrong, but perhaps you should clarify that statement rather than say, "everyone else gets it". However, *if* you do so, please send me a PM as well. I certainly don't want to add to the derailment considering two are tangoing just fine.

OK, you're the SECOND person who posted that you misunderstood me ...

let me clarify further

actually there are only a few posters here in Video that i really *trust* ... whose statements i tend to take without challenge or feel a need to look up their sources ... i just usually take their word and let it got at that ... but that is completely beside this issue.

OK? ... no problem with that? ... so far ...

[BackGround] i gave a *very general statement* ... remember i DO visit OTHER forums where the MS Viral Marketeers are *obvious* ... so keep that in mind as you follow along ...
. . . i also know for a *fact* that MS, nvidia and [yes,] DAAMiT employ viral marketing to us on THIS forum ... and you have to know how much i HATE it as perspectives get *skewed* by marketing influences.

so i wrote: im giving it some time before i pay to be a beta tester for MS and when the *real forum people* that i *trust* - not MS viral *seeds* giving a knee-jerk thumbsup - on these forum(s) report it is *mature* and relativly *fixed*, i will buy it ..
EDIT: please NOTE that i did NOT say, 'everyone that posts positive things about Vista' or 'whoever disagrees with me is a MS Viral Marketeer' ... that has never occurred in ANY of my other statements here and would be the height of arrogant stupidity

"these forum" is a typo as it should be *these forums* ... the ones i visit

i was/AM INTENDING to say that i am going to wait for the people i trust to give me the 'go ahead' ... instead of the ones who will just say 'Vista is Awesome' because it is new or as someone *planted* by MS [i.e. Viral Seeds] ... usually with free Vista or Office SW that 'matches' their new rig ... and sometimes even UNidentified MS employees

i don't think it is so difficult to see my perspective ... i have always been CONSISTENT in my denunciation of Viral Marketing and it was just *another general statement* on that same subject because of MS' continued use of Viral Marketing

i do not *trust* MS [period]

i *NEVER ACCUSED* anyone on this forum ... specifically or generally ... in my statement ... and to feel there is an *implication* is reading that into it ... in fact, i agreed with CookieMonster and Others [who i trust] that do like Vista... but i am not posting what i like about it in this thread ... it is a "Why NOT Vista" kind of response ... it is SO UNnecessary for me to get the Fluff that Vista appears to offer over Win2K ... especially while it is still new and probably buggy.

and again *i'M SORRY* for the *confusion* ... this should not be a general topic for flaming --especially after i *explained myself* again [and again] and again and ... again

and it's the *same* explanation ... without change or embellishment

 

[Keysplayr]

Ok, for those of us who want to sample Vista, where can we download the latest release candidate or something like a 30-60 day demo or something?

Thanks

 

[Zebo]

Amazing Poppy made a whole post, a long one, in point of fact, without an emotion.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Amazing Poppy made a whole post, a long one, in point of fact, without an emotion.

 

[Aznguy1872]

Not sure if there is a place to download a free trail of windows vista...

 

[josh6079]

let me clarify further

actually there are only a few posters here in Video that i really *trust* ... whose statements i tend to take without challenge or feel a need to look up their sources ... i just usually take their word and let it got at that ... but that is completely beside this issue.

OK? ... no problem with that? ... so far ...

[BackGround] i gave a *very general statement* ... remember i DO visit OTHER forums where the MS Viral Marketeers are *obvious* ... so keep that in mind as you follow along ...
. . . i also know for a *fact* that MS, nvidia and [yes,] DAAMiT employ viral marketing to us on THIS forum ... and you have to know how much i HATE it as perspectives get *skewed* by marketing influences.

so i wrote: im giving it some time before i pay to be a beta tester for MS and when the *real forum people* that i *trust* - not MS viral *seeds* giving a knee-jerk thumbsup - on these forum(s) report it is *mature* and relativly *fixed*, i will buy it ..
EDIT: please NOTE that i did NOT say, 'everyone that posts positive things about Vista' or 'whoever disagrees with me is a MS Viral Marketeer' ... that has never occurred in ANY of my other statements here and would be the height of arrogant stupidity

Thank you for clarifying that. I understand now.