Why Vista?

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mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
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I will read the doc in a few minutes, but what you said about 95% of existing malware bothers me. Key word "existing", meaning what we have in existense today. There is always tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. As the days crawl on, people will get more and more inventive. Heck, Iranians have already cracked Vista and are selling it for $8.00 USA per copy in their country, even after all of Microsofts VERY BEST efforts to eliminate copying/pirating. They broke it. So in reality, Windows Vista is only 95% secure against malware because hackers haven't had very much time yet to break through it's security features. Give them time, as they have a great deal of it apparently. As time goes on, that 95% will start to loose it's grip on that high percentile. Slipping to 94, then 92 and downward. Then MS will release critical updates to try to protect/prevent the exploits, only to have another hole punched a few minutes later.
Did you read my whole post? Read it again. I specifically anticipated what you just posted, and already addressed it at length. Sorry if it's not clear enough. I encourage you to read my WMF Exploit testing for a more concrete example of how a non-Admin setup (which is how Vista runs stuff) makes even a fully successful, unhindered exploit fall flat on its face. And that's just WinXP, without the hardened underpinnings they've given Vista.

The pirating of Vista has absolutely nothing to do with its operational security. I don't even know where you're coming from on that one

There certainly will be security vulnerabilities discovered in Vista as time goes by, even Microsoft says so. But as Johanna says,
Vista puts much more effort, compared to XP, into making exploitation harder and limiting the damage after the unlikely event of successful exploitation.
And if you refer to my WMF Exploit test, you'll see a concrete example of damage limitation.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not just whether there'll ever be vulns and exploits. The bar is set much higher than that now; the exploit has to not only get in the door, but then figure out a way out of the non-Admin cage it broke into (*golf clap*), or else try to work from inside it. Hope that's clearer
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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and yet many people will just *disable* UAC

thus defeating most of the "security advantage" that Vista has

As to *holes* ... MS already screwed up as any "upgrade" version of Vista can be used exactly as a "Full" version with a clean install [just like MS office 97 "upgrade"]

yeah, i *trust* MS security

the Vista bar might be higher but time will tell ... it's only out a few days ....

Windows Vista's Firewall offers false sense of security
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
a google search reveals more Vista INsecurity:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/27/av_on_ms/
AV firms rubbish MS Vista security claims
'It's just cr*p'
By Chris Williams
Published Thursday 27th April 2006 15:55 GMT


Infosec Anti-virus firms at Infosec say they expect Vista and IE7 to change nothing for the industry. Microsoft used its presence at the show to laud the security features they've been busy building in the the upcoming software.

In particular, Microsoft was eager to talk about how Vista will finally jettison the need to run Windows as an administrator most of the time.

Eugene Kaspersky, founder of the eponymous Russian AV outfit said he expects the new privilege regime to have little effect. He said: "Of course they [virus writers] will find a way round it. Within a year there will be something like a rootkit for Vista."

John Kay, Chief Technical Officer at Blackspider reckons on a "bug per line of code". With the traditionally Heath-Robinsonian construction of MS browsers he's not hopeful for IE7. He said: "I dread to think how many lines of code there are in there."

Of the overall security outlook, Kay added: "My wife and kids are going to continue to be subjected to all the threats out there [with the switch to Vista]. If you think about it, that's just crap."
of course this was from Last year ... hoiw about a few days ago?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6316253.stm
Last Updated: Wednesday, 31 January 2007, 12:39 GMT

Vista security claim challenged
By Mark Ward
Technology Correspondent, BBC News website

Security experts have thrown doubt on Bill Gates' claim that Vista is "more secure" than other operating systems.

It may be more secure than other versions of Windows, they said, but there are older operating systems that are still safer.

Others said that its security rested on how people use the new system rather than on any individual technology.

There is also evidence that malicious hackers are refining attacks to cope with the changes Vista makes.


Old iron

Mr Gates made the claim that Vista was "dramatically more secure" during an interview with BBC News. He said the improved security in Vista was a reason all by itself to upgrade from Windows XP.

Microsoft has spent more than five years developing Vista and some of the delays to its launch have occurred as developers struggle to make it more secure.

Malicious hackers are already known to be targeting Vista and carrying out research to expose its weaknesses.

"For sure, people are hammering away on it," Jeff Moss, the organiser of the Defcon hacking convention, told Reuters.


People are the weakest link here
David Emm, Kaspersky Labs

Vista is 'more secure' says Gates
"If you are a bad guy and you find a problem, you have a way to spread your malware and spyware," he said.

Vista exploits and vulnerabilities are starting to turn up on discussion boards where such things are traded and developed. So far most have been only experimental and none seem to have been tried in the wild.

Academics are also publishing papers on weaknesses in the security technologies inside Vista.

Testing times

Vista comes with many built-in security features in a bid to make the system safe from the moment it is switched on. These include anti-spyware software and a system that aims to stop malicious programs installing themselves by stealth.

But whether these changes made it more secure than other operating systems generated debate among security experts.

"It's dramatically more secure than, say, Windows 3.x, Windows 95, Windows NT, Windows 2000 or Windows XP," said Mikko Hypponen, chief research officer at F-Secure.

"However, it's fundamentally not more secure than operating systems like FreeBSD, QNX, AS/400 etc,
" he said.

"I would claim it's not even as secure as another operating system from Microsoft; namely the operating system inside the Xbox 360."

David Emm, senior technology consultant at Kaspersky Labs, said that with Vista Microsoft was treading a fine line between making the software safe and easy to use.

"The more useable and convenient you make it, especially for non-technical people, the more risk there is that there is a beloved patriot in the armour," he said.

"In a sense people are the weakest link here," said Mr Emm.

For instance, he said, the User Account Control system in Vista which aims to stop malicious programs installing themselves invisibly may not prove as effective as Microsoft believes.

This system ask users to give permission for programs, browser extensions and many other things to be installed. The sheer number of times that people are asked may make them click past the warning without realising what they were doing
, said Mr Emm.

His fears were echoed by Greg Day, security analyst at McAfee, who said the lack of context in the warnings could lead people to make dangerous choices. "It passes the emphasis on to the user to decide."

"Because it is Microsoft its always going to have a very big target on it," he added.

There is also evidence that the malicious hacking community is starting to change its tactics to cope with the kind of security technologies seen in Vista and which are also starting to be used in older operating systems such as XP.

Surveys of the sorts of malicious software seen in 2006 reveal a significant fall in what is known as "replicating code". These are the familiar viruses that travel by e-mail and which try to trick people into opening an infected attachment so they can find more victims to attack.

Instead more and more attacks are becoming targeted at very small populations of users or groups of PCs via a specific exploit or crafted junk mail campaign.

*secure* ... i don't think so

 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
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To summarize: is Vista secure?

Is Vista really as secure as the advertisements claim? Vista is undoubtedly more secure than previous operating systems from Microsoft. And a system which is configured in such a way that everything is blocked except for access to designated sites could be regarded as being absolutely secure.

Full info at Kaspersky here.


Secure will always be relative,no OS is 100% secure , however you can say Vista is a step in the right direction,add common sense when using any OS and decent AV/anti-spyware programs etc will give most users no problems.

I do feel more secure on Vista x64 then when I was with XP,however I still keep to my strict security habits when on and offline,better safe then sorry.

 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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strangely i also *feel secure* on Win2k

but *feelings* don't count

Vista is mostly dependent on the End User for its security ... and future MS patches
[and you call THAT 'security'?]
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Originally posted by: apoppin
strangely i also *feel secure* on Win2k

but *feelings* don't count

Vista is mostly dependent on the End User for its security ... and future MS patches
[and you call THAT 'security'?]

End of the day user will always be the weakest link in the chain,reason I feel bit more secure on Vista is because of the added protection like patchguard etc...any added protection is always better then nothing,but still I try not to drop my guard.

I saw a thread on Vista being hacked already over at OcUK,here is the news on that link.


Tehran, Feb 5, Taliya News ? Cracked version of Windows Vista is already available at Iranian software markets.
Less than two months after presentation of last edited version of Microsoft Company?s latest operating system, Windows Vista and despite all anti-crack locks installed by that system?s designers, Iranian hackers managed to beat Microsoft?s anti-copying tricks and present the ?fully cracked? version of this new Windows software to their Iranian clients!
The copied version of Vista is presently presented by an Iranian software company and provides the possibility for its owner to have a private ?Serial Number? and thus, to ?legalize!? his cracked Windows copy.
.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
i thinks it's also *silly* of MS to allow an Upgrade version to do a Clean Install without a previous version of Win


now 'that's' security

*sale* ... 33% off on ANY Version of Vista
:Q

[of course you Do have to break the EULA]

 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
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Originally posted by: apoppin
strangely i also *feel secure* on Win2k

but *feelings* don't count

Vista is mostly dependent on the End User for its security ... and future MS patches
[and you call THAT 'security'?]
I think that's a broad overgeneralization. The end user of the OS is not necessarily equipped with Admin powers. If you visited me, fired up my home computer and logged onto the Visitors account, you could disable my antivirus software's realtime protection, then go download Trojan Horse programs and spyware all day long, and nothing would happen when you tried to run them. Because a compotent Admin has the system configured not to allow you, the end user, to do that. That's the case with many business fleets, including the one I used to be responsible for.

As for patches, if you take the time to study my WMF Exploit report, you'll see that without patching, the use of a non-Admin privilige level (you know, the level that Vista runs everything at...?) proactively stopped the exploit from succeeding. Barring a successful privilege-escalation attack, which are not common, there's just no easy way out of that cage. I happen to know of some bad things that could still be done inside the cage, which is discussed a little at my SRP page.

I do agree that the average home computer users represent a weak spot. If the bad guys can persuade them to take down their defenses, using social engineering or Trojans, then they'll be happy to take such an easy end-run around the defenses. Well, that's a risk no matter what the OS, isn't it. It's the admin that gets hacked, as the saying goes. But if you study what's been done to Vista, it looks like Microsoft is doing their part.

I happen to be a Microsoft MVP, Windows Shell/User, and when I was asked for my suggestions on what SP3 for WindowsXP should be like, I said it should sandbox IE, WMP, OE and Messenger at low-rights levels as exploit containment, a la Vista, thinking of my WMF Exploit tests. I also said more should be done to educate users about dangers like Trojans, lurid misleading fake security-alert sites trying to pawn foistware on people (SpyAxe, WinAntiVirus, etc), because as you and your chosen articles rightly point out, end users don't always know what's what.

Anyway, I must toodle off to work
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: apoppin
i thinks it's also *silly* of MS to allow an Upgrade version to do a Clean Install without a previous version of Win


now 'that's' security

I don't get it . I can warez Vista right now (I have the ISO sitting on one of my hard drives... do note that my copy of Vista running on my machine is legit though ), does that make it even less secure than with your dual-Vista upgrade install (which is how you circumvent the upgrade no-clean-install issue)?

I don't think anyone's trying to make Vista out to be like having promiscuous sex with many women of questionable origin and coming out "clean." Vista is presenting a software approach to make up for the deficiencies of its users. If people won't learn to put seat belts on... put air bags in their car, it might just save them... quite akin to if people won't learn to stop opening "britkneespeersnudz.exe"... put a control to alert them.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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of course i overgeneralized

if you broke into my home and actually got to my PC you can have what you can easily steal

but getting to the info might be a *challenge* ... and probably not *worth it* ... compared to the crystal and silverware

otoh ... "remotely" breaking into my PC would be a real challenge - even on Win2K ... and probably also not *worth it*

as to *business* ... i doubt they will be quick to migrate ... but , yes ... Vista has more *protection* - "built in" - over XP

ANYway, i DO look forward to your further opinion as Vista matures and will also look forward to further *updates* on the 'state of Vista security'

and i'm also off to work
=======================================

edit: You really think MS *planned* to allow all Vista Upgrade Versions to do a "clean install"?

i'd say that one slipped right Past Them ... and is 'stupid' with a Capital 'S'
what else did MS screw up on?
:Q

stay tuned
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: mechBgon

The pirating of Vista has absolutely nothing to do with its operational security. I don't even know where you're coming from on that one

There certainly will be security vulnerabilities discovered in Vista as time goes by, even Microsoft says so. But as Johanna says,
Vista puts much more effort, compared to XP, into making exploitation harder and limiting the damage after the unlikely event of successful exploitation.
And if you refer to my WMF Exploit test, you'll see a concrete example of damage limitation.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not just whether there'll ever be vulns and exploits. The bar is set much higher than that now; the exploit has to not only get in the door, but then figure out a way out of the non-Admin cage it broke into (*golf clap*), or else try to work from inside it. Hope that's clearer

Ah. I see. No disrespect or anything my friend, but you are a little to "gung-ho" with this brand new OS. You say Vista puts much more effort, compared to XP into making exploitation harder, etc. etc. All that means is, hackers will try harder to compensate. Face it brudda, it is inevitable. Rules are made to be broken for a lot of out of work, lots 'o time on their hands, jelly donut eating hackers.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but history tells me that I need to be. In this case, being more pessimistic than optomistic is the safer waters to swim in. At least until Vista proves itself. But the only thing I think we will all see proven here, is the talent of the hacker(s).

Ahh, and one final bit here. My reference to the pirating of Vista by that Iranian company was to demonstrate that no matter how diligent, and savvy, and ingenius the copy/anti pirate protection is, or should I say was, on Vista, it only took 6 days (that we know of) to crack it. To me, this relates directly to Microsofts security claims for Vista. Won't take em long to break it. To think otherwise is just, well, wishful thinking.

 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
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Ah. I see. No disrespect or anything my friend, but you are a little to "gung-ho" with this brand new OS. You say Vista puts much more effort, compared to XP into making exploitation harder, etc. etc. All that means is, hackers will try harder to compensate. Face it brudda, it is inevitable. Rules are made to be broken for a lot of out of work, lots 'o time on their hands, jelly donut eating hackers.
And no disrespect meant back, but it appears you simply are what us cyclists call a "retro-grouch" It's new, it's hyped, therefore it must be all smoke and mirrors. Even though that world-class rootkit researcher and a bunch of others say it's a major improvement.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but history tells me that I need to be. In this case, being more pessimistic than optomistic is the safer waters to swim in. At least until Vista proves itself. But the only thing I think we will all see proven here, is the talent of the hacker(s).
The problem is that you're looking backwards at several old OSes. If you read the document I linked you to, you'll see that Microsoft themselves has hackers trying to break Vista, as part of their development process.

Ahh, and one final bit here. My reference to the pirating of Vista by that Iranian company was to demonstrate that no matter how diligent, and savvy, and ingenius the copy/anti pirate protection is, or should I say was, on Vista, it only took 6 days (that we know of) to crack it. To me, this relates directly to Microsofts security claims for Vista. Won't take em long to break it. To think otherwise is just, well, wishful thinking.
Nice try, but you're way off base. Naturally they can "break" a computer where they hold the Admin privilges, where they have access to the hardware, where they can run any hacking tools they want to, and where they can disable all protective measures at will. Go Google "ten immutable laws of computer security." It's not your computer anymore if ______________________.

But they can't do that on your computer, unless they physically break into your home. Your system plays by your rules, not theirs. It's not their captive that they can do whatever they want to it. They have very limited ways of trying to get a foothold. And as I explained about 5 times now, a foothold on Vista is worth a lot less, because unlike the previous versions of Windows that you base your opinions on, a successful exploit still isn't usually going to get them Admin privileges, even if you're logging on as an Admin.

Now, if you actually are running Remote Desktop and actively letting the Iranians freely log onto your computer as Admins, allowing them to run anything they want, allowing them to visit your home and mess with your computer in person, and turn off all your security... then OK, your Vista installation is going to get pwned See the distinction I'm trying to make here?

If you want to be a pessimist, IMO you're on safer ground by assuming that people will continue to make poor or ill-informed choices. Why try overcoming increasingly-tough security, when they can still count on eleventy billion horny kids choosing to install "Britney_nekkid_screensaver_HAWT.exe"?

edit: I had to laugh when I scrolled up and noticed Aikouka and I both chose the same exact topic (Britney Spears) for the hypothetical Trojan Horse :beer:
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
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eh, maybe I am a "retro-grouch". But it's not like I don't have a reason to be.
Microsoft has the worlds most user friendly (easiest to use) and robust operating systems, no doubt. But their track record of security leaves MUCH to be desired. Maybe Vista will be a vast improvement, and maybe not. If it's not, hey then that's just some more job security for you.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
eh, maybe I am a "retro-grouch". But it's not like I don't have a reason to be.
Microsoft has the worlds most user friendly (easiest to use) and robust operating systems, no doubt. But their track record of security leaves MUCH to be desired. Maybe Vista will be a vast improvement, and maybe not. If it's not, hey then that's just some more job security for you.

let's remind people about WinME ...

... and MS Bob

MS has turned out some real *turkeys*

you guys can have the *thrill* of a new OS ...

i'll catch up


 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
eh, maybe I am a "retro-grouch". But it's not like I don't have a reason to be.
Microsoft has the worlds most user friendly (easiest to use) and robust operating systems, no doubt. But their track record of security leaves MUCH to be desired. Maybe Vista will be a vast improvement, and maybe not. If it's not, hey then that's just some more job security for you.

let's remind people about WinME ...

... and MS Bob
LOL, but there you go again looking back at the past, rather than getting informed about the topic and actually having something to say Here's a good two-page article highlighting another fundamental shift in security on Vista: http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1887 Read, learn, & discuss.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
eh, maybe I am a "retro-grouch". But it's not like I don't have a reason to be.
Microsoft has the worlds most user friendly (easiest to use) and robust operating systems, no doubt. But their track record of security leaves MUCH to be desired. Maybe Vista will be a vast improvement, and maybe not. If it's not, hey then that's just some more job security for you.

let's remind people about WinME ...

... and MS Bob

MS has turned out some real *turkeys*

you guys can have the *thrill* of a new OS ...

i'll catch up



You'll have no choice once DX10 games appear,personally price for a new OEM Vista is like the price of 2 new games , you get 5 years plus life span with Microsoft updates,not bad however which way you look at it.

XP is a good OS ,but there's a new king in town called Vista,this will change down the road when the next OS is released,but until then Vista is still the king.


 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
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Oh, and
let's remind people about WinME ...
"So I was thinking about the Ford Fusion 4-door in the V6 SE trim level--"

"OMG NO, what are you thinking?!?! Ford made the Pinto once, and it was unsafe and just an all-around bad car!! The Fusion must be unsafe and bad too!!"

" Uhhh... the Fusion isn't a Pinto, though. It's, like, 20 years newer?"

"But it's still a Ford!! Don't you get it?!"

"I don't think the same guys designed it as designed the Pinto. It has airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control, gets good marks in the governement's standardized crash testing, and I'm pretty sure the gas tank won't blow up if it gets rear-ended."

"Oh baloney, here let me google for 'ford fusion problem danger' and see if I can show you the light..."

"That's ok, don't put yourself to the trouble :roll:"


Touché?
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
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Slightly off topic but do note Nvidia have released WHQL nForce chipset drivers for Vista.
Just head over to their driver section at nvidia.com .
I've installed the nforce 4 ones for my board,everything is working fine on my Vista x64.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
as i said ... i know the *difference* and i know MS' "history" ...
you can have all the *fun* of "perfecting it" for them

i am not against *your fun*

as as i will reiterate ... "i'll catch up" ...

probably around SP2 ... plenty of time ...
for me

in the meantime i will be *stuck* trouble shooting my friends' Vista Rigs
 

Toad21

Senior member
Jun 25, 2004
265
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Bottom line: Vista will produce lower frame rates for todays PC video games. Stick with XP until vista gets a service pack and games start coming with DX10 standard.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Does 75fps versus 80fps really mean that much to you or do you just try to find something to nitpick at? I still play my games just fine and previously I played in XP with the themes off (note that while using DualView + windowed mode, it keeps showing the themes so they will take some graphical horsepower to run).
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
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Originally posted by: Toad21
Bottom line: Vista will produce lower frame rates for todays PC video games. Stick with XP until vista gets a service pack and games start coming with DX10 standard.

Not always the case,

I don't like the sound of that, and I don't like the way CrossFire is not supported in OpenGL. ATI's Direct3D performance under Vista is quite good: Many games appear to run around 5% slower than XP, some are more like 10% slower, some are even a little bit faster.

The long and short of it is that Vista gamers can expect to generally lose a small amount of performance until a few months have gone by and the drivers can be better optimized. I expect this to happen pretty quickly, and for Vista performance to be comparable to Windows XP performance, overall (with some games up to 5% slower, some up to 5% faster).


Link.


Some people worry too much over FPS numbers when the bottomline is even if you have a slower FPS speed then you did in XP but its still smooth as silk and you don't notice the difference in gaming , why worry over something that's really not important.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
i usually dont read PC magazines, but i (due to lack of inet access i got me the latest PC World where they compare XP/Vista and also 32bit/64bit and *especially* the 64bit Vista compares SLOW.

So...if i upgrade i'll defintly only get the 32bit version of vista.

But then their comparison, especially the one where they tested with farcry is kind of a joke too...since the test was made in november/december.....and then of course they used beta drivers etc...etc....nonsense.

 
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