Why you can't have the death penalty as it exist today Glenn Ford

[poofyhairguy]

You may be OK paying to house, feed, and clothe some degenerate for 40, 50, or 60 years, but I am not.

Well what would you prefer:

1. Paying to house, feed, and clothe some degenerate for 40, 50, or 60 years

OR

2. Paying lawyers even MORE MONEY for years to push them through the arduous appeal process the Supreme Court tied to death penalty cases.


And there is no option 3 "well just don't spend that much on appeals then." The only allowed death penalty in America HAS TO abide by the Supreme Court rulings with defacto make the life in prison option cost taxpayers less than the death penalty.

And no option 4 "well just change what the Supreme Court ruled." That would take an amendment that doesn't have nearly enough political support to pass.

So, for the rest of the time America is the nation we are, you have those two options. Pay to keep the degenerates alive, or pay extra to kill them. The bonus of the less expensive option is if the system made a mistake it can be partially fixed like in OP.

 

[Texashiker]

I guess there is no right or wrong in your little world. As long as it is all nice and legal, the actual guilt of the defendant means nothing to you.

Hey, I have an idea, how about when people are called for jury duty they do their civic duty.

But instead of doing their duty, they try everything possible to get out of jury duty. Then they whine on the internet about unfair the system is.

If you do not like the system, work to change it. Register to vote, and serve on a jury when called.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

you must not read.

also, how is having decades of your life stolen an example of "system working well"?

are you trolling, or just really fucking stupid?

We're talking about the system of capitol punishment. DP vs LWOP.

 

[dainthomas]

Says he gets 250K + an additional 80K by Louisiana law

That's so insulting it's absolutely jaw-dropping.

 

[LunarRay]

You may be OK paying to house, feed, and clothe some degenerate for 40, 50, or 60 years, but I am not.

You speak to costs... OK... It costs more to deal with a Death Penalty case than 60 years in prison... but the point is killing an innocent person ought relegate that penalty to the dung heap.

To say.. 'Ah well... mistakes happen' is or ought to be considered Un Constitutional. It deprives a person of their Life.
I don't understand how we can condemn Iran for killing under Sharia but do the same under the US Codes. Only difference that I see are the alleged crimes applicable given their judicial system is theirs.

 

[BUnit1701]

Well what would you prefer:

1. Paying to house, feed, and clothe some degenerate for 40, 50, or 60 years

OR

2. Paying lawyers even MORE MONEY for years to push them through the arduous appeal process the Supreme Court tied to death penalty cases.


And there is no option 3 "well just don't spend that much on appeals then." The only allowed death penalty in America HAS TO abide by the Supreme Court rulings with defacto make the life in prison option cost taxpayers less than the death penalty.

And no option 4 "well just change what the Supreme Court ruled." That would take an amendment that doesn't have nearly enough political support to pass.

So, for the rest of the time America is the nation we are, you have those two options. Pay to keep the degenerates alive, or pay extra to kill them. The bonus of the less expensive option is if the system made a mistake it can be partially fixed like in OP.

And you highlight the over-reaching problem with modern America. No, we cant pursue actual solutions, we have two choices presented to us, pick one and then stop whining.

 

[BUnit1701]

You speak to costs... OK... It costs more to deal with a Death Penalty case than 60 years in prison... but the point is killing an innocent person ought relegate that penalty to the dung heap.

To say.. 'Ah well... mistakes happen' is or ought to be considered Un Constitutional. It deprives a person of their Life.
I don't understand how we can condemn Iran for killing under Sharia but do the same under the US Codes. Only difference that I see are the alleged crimes applicable given their judicial system is theirs.

Of course, developing better forensic methods and tools and reforming the prosecutoral system aren't options, that would actually fix the problem...

 

[poofyhairguy]

Eliminate the death penalty and support people in prison forever?

Yes that is exactly what you do. And it is the less expensive option.

How do you spend so much time in P&N and not get basic political talking points like that.

If the aging baby boomers are going to cost this nation a fortune in medical care, what is an aging prison population going to do?

Finally give that economy of scale to Obamacare.

 

[LunarRay]

The criminal on death row received a trial, and was convicted by a jury of his peers.

But if the person is truly innocent does that not alter your thinking a bit? Does the notion 'wrongfully convicted' have meaning in your thinking?

A baby is innocent.

The definition of baby seems to contain the notion that birth occurred. The law regarding abortion is clear. You may not like it but like all the laws we have they are the rules we live by in this secular society. Jefferson build that wall high!!!

It is a simple concept. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.


As for the opening post, what other option do we have? Eliminate the death penalty and support people in prison forever?

Interesting... kill a person now or they will be a drain forever and ever and ever.... sounds biblical.

If the aging baby boomers are going to cost this nation a fortune in medical care, what is an aging prison population going to do?

Guess we need an age law... once you attain oh... say... 65 you become Soylent Green.
It is always fine when it ain't you but once it becomes you then what do you do? I suspect you'd like an advocate working on your behalf...

See the bold above.

Always remember that you are in the same pot as the rest. If one has their toe stomped so do you...

 

[Sunburn74]

So are you going to be the one that invents a device that call pull verified memories out of people's minds? Or the one to invent a time machine?

Because without those there is no way to get 100% certainty in all cases. Hence, the "band aid" is the only real-world solution.

You can always make the requirements for the death penalty be extremely stringent in terms of acceptable evidence. In addition, you can also make the subsequent exoneration of an inmate extremely damaging to a prosecutor and lead detective (by extremely damaging I mean punishable by prison time and even the death penalty itself) so as to remove their incentives to send just any old guy to prison.

 

[poofyhairguy]

And you highlight the over-reaching problem with modern America. No, we cant pursue actual solutions, we have two choices presented to us, pick one and then stop whining.

Oh well, two options is better than what a lot of the world gets (the one option their king/dictator/employer wants).

 

[LunarRay]

Of course, developing better forensic methods and tools and reforming the prosecutoral system aren't options, that would actually fix the problem...

I can't help applying my bias to these issues and so I do... If I were a Christian I'd wonder what would Jesus say.

He'd probably say that humans will always be humans and that perfection is not an evolutionary effect. As he twittled some sand in his fingers he'd probably look out at the Romans carting another innocent to the cross and proclaim their future has just begun. But, Jesus don't make the law here... and he don't have much of a say in what or when something is fixed... It is always fixed until it becomes fixed again and again... We are not perfect and, therefore, cannot create perfect.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I can't help applying my bias to these issues and so I do... If I were a Christian I'd wonder what would Jesus say.

Moonbeam, you need to read the Bible.

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place! For all who take up the sword will die by the sword."

Don't murder because murderers are subject to be punished by death.

 

[Texashiker]

Guess we need an age law... once you attain oh... say... 65 you become Soylent Green.

It is always fine when it ain't you but once it becomes you then what do you do? I suspect you'd like an advocate working on your behalf...

The people who say just to keep the prisoners in prison forever may not realize what the cost is.

As the prison population grows, so will medical care bills.

Who is going to pay for all of that?

The definition of baby seems to contain the notion that birth occurred. The law regarding abortion is clear. You may not like it but like all the laws we have they are the rules we live by in this secular society. Jefferson build that wall high!!!

Laws regarding slavery were clear, does not mean people had to like it.

Just because something is legal or illegal does not make it right or wrong.

 

[LunarRay]

You can always make the requirements for the death penalty be extremely stringent in terms of acceptable evidence. In addition, you can also make the subsequent exoneration of an inmate extremely damaging to a prosecutor and lead detective (by extremely damaging I mean punishable by prison time and even the death penalty itself) so as to remove their incentives to send just any old guy to prison.

One of the bits it is said Moses gave the folks was to not bear false witness... OF all the bits he gave that one is the strongest, in my opinion. We rationalize away all the rest but it is nearly impossible to do that with that one. But, then again in a secular society Moses don't carry sway.
I figure that a prosecutor who does anything whatsoever in avoiding the truth has suborned false witness... but he's an advocate... So that is his job... Defeat any attempt by the defense to show innocence... What a nice system... Those with the bucks to counter the wealth of the State get better justice than those who don't.... How do you fix that? Give more money to the defense... speak about costs rising...

In some places there are nothing but judges who decide the case... that might be better than having our system... I don't know.. but, I'd not like to punish the State's people for doing what they get paid to do... and there is a fine line there, I think.

 

[LunarRay]

Moonbeam, you need to read the Bible.




Don't murder because murderers are subject to be punished by death.

I think of my time at St. John's and St. Peters and wonder if the bible I read there has the same context some folks read elsewhere.

BTW, do you apply the same certainty to my being Moonbeam as you do the biblical bits you interpret?

 

[LunarRay]

The people who say just to keep the prisoners in prison forever may not realize what the cost is.

As the prison population grows, so will medical care bills.

Who is going to pay for all of that?

You?



Laws regarding slavery were clear, does not mean people had to like it.

Just because something is legal or illegal does not make it right or wrong.

I agree ... it makes it simply legal or illegal.... but that is presumed to be moral.. or right... and immoral and wrong.... hopefully we can agree on that as a society... Laws should reflect what is best in our society.

See the bold.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Who is going to pay for all of that?

Who will pay for all the lawyers who do death penalty appeals? That is your answer.

 

[bradly1101]

Some people believe in death as a deterrent to crime for various reasons, others do not for their reasons.

If in one's awareness is the fact that humans are fallible, I don't understand how 'the ultimate penalty' is supportable.

 

[CitizenKain]

Some people believe in death as a deterrent to crime for various reasons, others do not for their reasons.

If in one's awareness is the fact that humans are fallible, I don't understand how 'the ultimate penalty' is supportable.

Because most death penalty supporters are terrible people and they don't care about that. They are small minded idiots who believe vengeance is the goal of the justice system, and as long as the poor and minorities are the main recipient of the death penalty, all the better.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I think of my time at St. John's and St. Peters and wonder if the bible I read there has the same context some folks read elsewhere.

BTW, do you apply the same certainty to my being Moonbeam as you do the biblical bits you interpret?

I don't know you.


You can read the Bible and see the words, but without the Holy Spirit, you can't see the Logos.

 

[Newell Steamer]

I'll be right back guys, I've got to the bathroom and drop a Newell Steamer out of my bshole.

Remind us all how much you value life - and then root for shooting someone in the face for knocking on your door looking for help.

Or, how we must protect the children - yet, gun them down for egging your car and/or playing loud music.

 

[Mursilis]

System working well. Another innocent man is freed after facing death for decades.


There are no examples of execution of anyone that are later factually proven innocent past 30 years.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

I think the Cameron Willingham case is the most convincing, but feel free to choose your favorite.

 

[Mursilis]

Given our capacity to screw up, I'm comfortable excluding the DP from all cases except in ones where the "suspect" is absolutely certain. Such as Boston Bombers, Aurora theater, Fort Hood, etc.

Basically people who are caught in the act. No circumstantial cases whatsoever.

Even in very clear cases, I'd prefer the gov't not be in the business of killing people when there are alternatives. Life in prison accomplishes the same thing.

 

[Mursilis]

The Death Penality: It's What Made Pro-Lifers Change Their Name To Anti-Abortionists.

You bring nothing useful to this discussion.