WHYYYYYY cant people write properly anymore?

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Originally posted by: LordSegan
Originally posted by: caramel
on the forums, i tend to write in all lowercase. IRL, though, i'm propa.

On forums and when I am IMing, I always write like a retard (except in "Why cant we write" threads ). But IRL, I usually write pretty well. I would assume that if you were writing for an audience of about 50,000 fellow community members IRL, you would want to write well too. That's why I'm concerned.

Ha, I know exactly what you mean - usually I'm pretty good with my grammar/spelling/punctuation, but in "Why can't people write" threads, I make sure everything is perfect before I submit.

Anyway, I've noticed that downward trend too. At U of M, I am literally stunned to see the amount of people who can't write worth a wink. Now, I consider myself a pretty good writer, but I'm not talking about writing innovative, flowery prose. I'm talking about writing coherent sentences in logical paragraphs, and many of the students I've seen simply can't do it.

It's sad, but hey - it makes me look even better.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
English is not my primary language, yet I seem to be better at it than some of the Native English speakers on this board.

More and more Dutch people mess up spelling and grammar in Dutch too, I guess it's just the world speeding up and people not caring enough to slow down and re-read their stuff, or even not caring enough to learn their primary language correctly (or to teach the correct version to their kids).
 

EngenZerO

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2001
5,099
2
0
I think this is due to sheer laziness of people. I only care for grammer when I have to turn in a formal report, paper, or I am asked to write in complete sentences. For every other situation I could care less about my grammer. I think it is an effect of college. We students are always struggling to write notes down during lecture and just learn to get to the piont. We are tuahg that runons and short phrases that get to the point, are incorrect but we use them daily during lectures. This could be a cause to why the grammer not a concern to many anylonger.

engen
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: ausm
huked on fonix worx 4 mee


Ausm

heh...ever heard of Brian Regan? His Phonics bit kills me! Hook-ed on puh-honics...work-ed for me...me!

And..."I before E except after C and when sounding like A as in Neighbor and Weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May and you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!"
 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
0
Maybe UCLA isn't as good of a school as you think it is. I wouldn't consider it a top 25 school.
 

DougyDanger

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
214
0
0
[qI only care for grammer when I have to turn in a formal report, paper, or I am asked to write in complete sentences. For every other situation I could care less about my grammer. [/quote]

Spelling too, eh?

 

isaacmacdonald

Platinum Member
Jun 7, 2002
2,820
0
0
The problem is perhaps a shift from books to television and movies. Most contemporary native speakers have learned structure and grammar from speech. It is not suprising that this equates to diminished writing skills. In an evolutionary sense, this may signify the diminishing relevance of writing.

Spelling and grammar have come to a point where they're practically stylistic. As long as the documents are coherent, don't complain.
 

LakAttack

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
533
0
0
You can blame Phonics for poor spelling, but not for poor grammar. When I was in HS (not that long ago), we learned to diagram sentences. That exercise helped my improve my grammar tenfold, but I don't think many kids still do that.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Okay, the real reason is that kids are taught from an early age that it is cool to be stupid. I call it the "Lowest Common Denominator" syndrome.
 

zCypher

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2002
6,115
171
116
I agree. Just read this board, with 100,000 members! I bet I could count on both hands the number of people who can write at a level higher than HS!

Furthermore, I disagree about the comment regarding "the idea matters". Yes, the idea matters - but if the idea is not delivered in a coherent and logical fashion, it will be more difficult to understand. Why create misunderstandings out of sheer indolence?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
I'm pretty sure I don't function in written language like most people do. I had trouble learning to read. Fourth grade basically and with the discovery of Tarzan books, something, for the first time in my life, I wanted to read. I struggle tremendously with spelling and have, as far as I can tell, no visual memory for words. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to spell doppelganger this morning and don't know now if a u belongs in there somewhere. I used to have a paper I tried to write as a child about Madam Curie that was covered with tears of pain and frustration and loathing at the overwhelming challenge and difficulty I had in trying to get it right. No edit function for a pen...

When it came time to write English papers on philosophical subjects in High School the challenge became acute. I thought I had something to say, the material profoundly interested me, but I couldn't make the words say what I meant. I used to write 50 pages of scratch out to get an 8 page paper and I couldn't type for spit either (no computer) so all those mistakes had to be fixed too. It was a nightmare. Only the burning desire to express myself, the feeling of a conscious being, a seer, trapped inside a crippled monkey kept me going.

I used to puzzle over why what I wrote didn't say what I mean. I'd write it again. Nope, no good either. I'd write it again and I kept asking myself, what do I mean, how can I communicate this idea properly. Part of the problem for me, of course, and if you don't mind me saying so, was that some of the things I wanted to say were rather complicated and subtle, or so I sometimes was told since if I might get an F on grammar and composition, I'd get an A on content. I was plowing new ground, going beyond what I was reading, deepening and expanding on what great thinkers were telling me, finding what was and was not true in what they said. Naturally, that's my opinion. Part of the problem was there was no shorthand for what I was thinking. I hadn't worked out a paradigm, a mnemonic or rote contrivance of speech to which I could reference, no 'ground of being' or fancy metaphysical terms to encapsulate and distill things down to.

So I wrote and wrote and kept asking why things didn't say what I wanted to say. In part I didn't know what I wanted to say myself. Thinking, intellectual inquiry, putting into words how one feels, is a process, in some respects I think, of crystallizing out of the unconscious feelings we feel but cannot put to words because we don't experience them linguistically. Thinking, writing, is the act of crystallizing into words that which we feel but can't claim as our own till we do put them to words. It is a process by which we come to understand ourselves by understanding what we feel.

This self-reflective awareness, this art of expressing what we feel is, in part I think, a process of feeling and being or becoming. We have to become what we feel by crystallizing it out into words. But we are never the words. Being itself lies elsewhere. Anyway, part of writing, I think, and part of what makes for so much of the poor quality of what you have raised here as an issue, LordSegan, is that people have nothing to say, and they have nothing to say because they are afraid to feel. They cannot contact that part of themselves that has something worth expressing and that's, as you doubtless know I've said a million times, because we hate ourselves. We cannot allow contact with our feelings because of what is hidden there.

What helped me to improve my ability to say what I want to say was to say it. I'd write a sentence and it was garbage. I'd ask what did I really mean. I'd say that. Nope garbage again. Come on idiot, what are you trying to say. "Well it's this but I don't know how to write it down. I found I could say it, but I couldn't write it. So I stopped writing, stopped thinking how to make a great sentence, use this or that word, structure it to look impressive, a million other considerations than what I wanted to say, this fear that fear, and just said it like I say it. I stopped writing and started talking, talking like I think. I have no real idea what I'm going to say now. how the sentence will look, where it will end, or even where it is going. All that happens as a stream of consciousness. I jump on and wham, off we go, and where it stops nobody knows, though I'm certain, if you've gotten this far, you'd like it to.

This brings me to one final point. Here I am talking about how to express yourself, how to be clear and how to have something to say and I doubt if there's anybody on ATOT and now the political forum who gets told more frequently than me that he's incomprehensible. Hehe! I've learned that being too clear about some things can get you in trouble, that it's better to say things with just that amount of obscurity as to repel the superficial and leave the more serious and penetrative with something to chew on.
 

isaacmacdonald

Platinum Member
Jun 7, 2002
2,820
0
0
Furthermore, I disagree about the comment regarding "the idea matters". Yes, the idea matters - but if the idea is not delivered in a coherent and logical fashion, it will be more difficult to understand. Why create misunderstandings out of sheer indolence?

Originally posted by: jliechty
Originally posted by: LordSegan
This is UCLA, its not some second-rate...
Shouldn't that be "it's," the proper contraction for "it is"?

I ask again... is it really necessary to be so pedantic? Was there some meaning lost because of the apostrophe's absense? I don't think so. As long as the sentence is coherent, this kind of criticism is wholy superfluous.
 

Spamela

Diamond Member
Oct 30, 2000
3,859
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Okay, the real reason is that kids are taught from an early age that it is cool to be stupid. I call it the "Lowest Common Denominator" syndrome.

i'm tempted to agree & to blame TV, but i think that there's more to it than that.

there is a desire amongst some kids to not remove themselves from their social group by excelling academically. high grades, after all, are cold comfort.

in addition, i think kids understand the message that celebrity looks, youth, and wealth are most valued by our society.

i've always felt that reading full length novels by 19-th century authors was the best way to learn to write.

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,833
8,302
136
Originally posted by: FeathersMcGraw
The irony of the post title "WHYYYYYY cant people write properly anymore?" is just off the scale.

No, I don't think so. It was intentional by the poster. He was looking for emphasis. It was a device in the subject for a thread. When you read the post you saw he could write. I would have left off the extra Y's but so what? Notice, the other part of the subject was perfectly correct!
 

EngenZerO

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2001
5,099
2
0
bah - I blame MS Word for the autocorrect spelling feature. This one feature has led to the decline of my spelling,

engen
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,833
8,302
136
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: LordSegan
Originally posted by: caramel
on the forums, i tend to write in all lowercase. IRL, though, i'm propa.

On forums and when I am IMing, I always write like a retard (except in "Why cant we write" threads ). But IRL, I usually write pretty well. I would assume that if you were writing for an audience of about 50,000 fellow community members IRL, you would want to write well too. That's why I'm concerned.

Ha, I know exactly what you mean - usually I'm pretty good with my grammar/spelling/punctuation, but in "Why can't people write" threads, I make sure everything is perfect before I submit.

Anyway, I've noticed that downward trend too. At U of M, I am literally stunned to see the amount of people who can't write worth a wink. Now, I consider myself a pretty good writer, but I'm not talking about writing innovative, flowery prose. I'm talking about writing coherent sentences in logical paragraphs, and many of the students I've seen simply can't do it.

It's sad, but hey - it makes me look even better.
I complained to a boss of mine some years ago about the rampant incompetence I saw everywhere. His reply was the same - it makes me look better. It might help some but I still get mad when I'm the victim of incompetence.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,833
8,302
136
Originally posted by: Vic
Okay, the real reason is that kids are taught from an early age that it is cool to be stupid. I call it the "Lowest Common Denominator" syndrome.

Yeah, you've hit on a REAL issue here. I read an interview of Star Wars star Natalie Portman, a brain AND a beauty, who attends Harvard (I think). She made the point that there's a culture of thought nowadays that it's not cool to be smart. In her words (pretty much!), "it's going to be a huge problem". BTW, folks, since we are talking about correct written usage here, do you put the quote marks inside the period or outside? I think outside, but I keep wondering, so please, please tell me!
 

dethman

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
10,264
3
76
Originally posted by: Muse
Originally posted by: Vic
Okay, the real reason is that kids are taught from an early age that it is cool to be stupid. I call it the "Lowest Common Denominator" syndrome.

Yeah, you've hit on a REAL issue here. I read an interview of Star Wars star Natalie Portman, a brain AND a beauty, who attends Harvard (I think). She made the point that there's a culture of thought nowadays that it's not cool to be smart. In her words (pretty much!), "it's going to be a huge problem". BTW, folks, since we are talking about correct written usage here, do you put the quote marks inside the period or outside? I think outside, but I keep wondering, so please, please tell me!

"outside the period."
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
My father, a school teacher, taught me, "Vic, when you use punctuation in quotation, it should going inside the quotation marks."
I said, "Really?"
 
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