Wife wants to go back to Med School...having troubles with the math on this.

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sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,162
4
61
One big concern is her overall satisfaction and happiness. Which I can honestly are not that great right now. Would going back to school fix it? Don't know. Maybe the break from an intense job is what she needs for a few years. I don't really know.

She's going to trade an intense job for intense schooling. The only difference is the payday - and with the schooling, that's pretty far off.
 

dagamer34

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2005
2,591
0
71
As someone who's already in medical school for 3 years... I don't think this is a good idea. And you guys already have kids??

I'm going to be super blunt with you. At some point during the next 7 years, you are going to feel so burdened from doing all the work that you are going to want to divorce her. The bump in salary shouldn't be worth your marriage.

Oh, and Emergency Medicine is 4 years, not 3. That makes a total of 8 years.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
She's a sharp cookie. 34 on her ACT (we don't do SAT). 36 is highest. She was 99th percentile on her PCAT (Pharmacy admittance) and did a 3.7 in Pharmacy school working almost full time.

She's talked to a a lot of MD's and residents about it and nearly every one of them said that non-trads actually have an easier time than traditionals. Just a different degree of focus and time management. Plus a maturity level that is different. You've got a family depending on you many times and that changes your midset.

They also said the hardest part would be the first semester of the first year getting back into the classroom/study model and after that it's not the nightmare it's made out to be by many.

And that's from opinions of people that have gone through or been in that program and had similar experiences as her (kids while going through) and that actually know her capabilities.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,454
10
81
i think i misunderstood the time commitment away from the family. i thought it sounded like the next 7 years would be bad but now it sounds like only years 1, 5, 6 and 7 would be bad. is this correct?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
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Has your wife considered taking a slower route to becoming an MD ?
There are jobs that would keep her in the same line of work that she could go to school for now and the time they require is far less, she could still become a full MD and it would take more time, but it wouldn't be such a strain for everyone involved.

If she is interested in doing emergency medicine I would look at becoming a paramedic first as that would give her a lot of experience that she could use once she becomes an MD, she would know how things work out in the field as well as within a hospital.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,783
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Tough situation here. Either way it's a strain on the marriage as if you try to block her from doing it, she could resent you for that. If you encourage or accept it and support her, then you will be strained with the kids and it could cause a rift and lead you to resent her for it. What happens if in 2 years you have some dream job thing happen, now you can't do it because of her chasing her dream. Would you be okay with that?

The way I see it is if she wanted to do medical school, that is something she should have done before having kids. She decided she was ready to "settle down" and start a family. She now wants to put the family, and financials from that family she decided she was ready to have a few years ago, in the backseat to chase her dreams. She should have done this years ago. She has obligations she choose to make, and now needs to honor those.

On the personal side, I also believe that you should live your life in a way that you can minimize regrets and if that ends a relationship or something so be it. Granted I'm not married with kids, so it's different.
 
Nov 3, 2004
10,491
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Is that med school the only one she's considering? You make it sound like she's already been accepted to that one medical school. What if she doesn't get into that one, but gets accepted to one much farther away?
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
If she is interested in doing emergency medicine I would look at becoming a paramedic first as that would give her a lot of experience that she could use once she becomes an MD, she would know how things work out in the field as well as within a hospital.

She staffs the ED at a level one trauma center has coffee in the physician pods with the ED attendings and residents quite frequently. She's pretty comfortable with what happens there.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
Money certainly isn't the deciding factor on it, but it's something that you can at least put a tangible/objective value on in helping base a decision. It's hard to put a "value" on the amount of time a child spends with their parents. That's what is hard about it. One year would almost a total loss. The next several would almost be an improvement to be honest. And then it would dive again as residency wrapped up.

There's a few years that would be hell on our family. And a few that would actually be an improvement.

One big concern is her overall satisfaction and happiness. Which I can honestly are not that great right now. Would going back to school fix it? Don't know. Maybe the break from an intense job is what she needs for a few years. I don't really know.

The other elephant in the room is the outlook 20-25 years down the road that I have to admit does look pretty good. How many couples at 50-55 years old can say they have a house paid off, a million or more in the bank, one spouse retired, and the other working part time and still making $150,000+? At that point an extra shift a week every now and then covers any vacation we'd want or college expenses for the kids.

It's that 10 year stretch setting it up that I really just don't know how to digest and say "yeah, lets do this".

That's where some of my selfishness is being teased.

So I come from the opposite orientation of sixone. For me, being personally happy is priority number 1, and only after you've secured that can you work on improving the lives of those around you.

I think money needs to be taken out of the equation. She's making pretty good money, and presumably could still return to that if med school doesn't work out. If med school does work out, you'll easily be able to pay off the loans. Whether you come out ahead isn't really all that important.

So the factor that really matters is her availability to her children. Being a doctor at a teaching hospital (private practice is different) is not a normal job. It's much more like being a professor or a CEO. My mother has worked 60-70 hour weeks for the past 30 years. She loves the intensity and the stress, and has no real interest in hobbies outside of her work. I could never live like that, but it's her dream job. The result was that my father did most of the work managing the house, picking up the kids, etc. since he had a more normal 9-5 job.

Chances are, your wife is like my mother, and she needs that kind of intensity to be happy. You are thus faced with two alternatives: either force her to feel unfulfilled in her career, or be willing to pick up a lot of the slack in the child rearing (or hire someone, as you'll have the money for it). My recommendation is the second option, since you'll likely not convince her to be happy where she is.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
So the factor that really matters is her availability to her children. Being a doctor at a teaching hospital (private practice is different) is not a normal job. It's much more like being a professor or a CEO. My mother has worked 60-70 hour weeks for the past 30 years. She loves the intensity and the stress, and has no real interest in hobbies outside of her work. I could never live like that, but it's her dream job. The result was that my father did most of the work managing the house, picking up the kids, etc. since he had a more normal 9-5 job.

Chances are, your wife is like my mother, and she needs that kind of intensity to be happy. You are thus faced with two alternatives: either force her to feel unfulfilled in her career, or be willing to pick up a lot of the slack in the child rearing (or hire someone, as you'll have the money for it). My recommendation is the second option, since you'll likely not convince her to be happy where she is.

You mostly summarized my wife and our roles. I'm the stable, "house manager" even today with her current occupation. She does drop off and pick up the kids though since it's closer to her work on her 1st shift days.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
She staffs the ED at a level one trauma center has coffee in the physician pods with the ED attendings and residents quite frequently. She's pretty comfortable with what happens there.

She is getting experience in the hospital but not out in the field. There is a lot of difference between someone brought in the door of the hospital and having to help someone in a car accident and you are the first person there.
The reason I bring this up is I have a good friend that went a very similar route, he was a pharmacist, then a paramedic, then a PA, and now a surgeon. It took a lot of years and certainly longer than going straight to school for MD but if you ask him where he learned the most it was being a paramedic. He told me there are paramedics he would rather try to save his life than some of the MD he knows.
Not saying paramedic is the only option , but consider other areas that lead to the same path.
 
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jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
It's a little different in healthcare. Management decisions and being spineless to shitty practice actually have an impact on the health and well being of people you are actually taking care of. Not to mention the bully practice of having to deal with power tripping surgeons on a daily basis that administration allows to run wild.
One person in the hospital switching their title from "PharmD" to "MD" isn't going to change any of that.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,309
126
She is getting experience in the hospital but not out in the field. There is a lot of difference between someone bought in the door of the hospital and having to help someone in a car accident and you are the first person there.
The reason I bring this up is I have a good friend that went a very similar route, he was a pharmacist, then a paramedic, then a PA, and now a surgeon. It took a lot of years and certainly longer than going straight to school for MD but if you ask him where he learned the most it was being a paramedic. He told me there are paramedics he would rather try to save his life than some of the MD he knows.
Not saying paramedic is the only option , but consider other areas that lead to the same path.
To be honest, I'd say studying to become a paramedic in this context would be a waste of time

You can learn a lot as a paramedic, but she's already in her 30s. It sounds like she wants to become an MD, and is looking toward emerg, so she may as well do that and then take emerg. rotations as a medical student instead of wasting several years studying to be and then working as a paramedic, for way less money than she's making as a pharmacist.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Also, what guarantee does she have that she can get a position in the hospital in town in 7 years? What happens if she can't get a job at that point in town with her new even more expensive degree?
 

Bazake

Member
Feb 13, 2012
137
0
0
I know that no one really wants to think about it, but make sure you plan for a potential disaster scenario. The death of you or your spouse after racking up $500k in debt could be insurmountable. Up the life insurance.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
Also, what guarantee does she have that she can get a position in the hospital in town in 7 years? What happens if she can't get a job at that point in town with her new even more expensive degree?

Well there's always towns out in the sticks who will let her work and payoff a chunk of her loans. But then the whole family has to serve a term in Siberia along with her.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
25,162
4
61
I know that no one really wants to think about it, but make sure you plan for a potential disaster scenario. The death of you or your spouse after racking up $500k in debt could be insurmountable. Up the life insurance.

And the disability insurance. If one of you suffers a debilitating injury or illness, the effects could be even worse.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,665
0
71
She's a sharp cookie. 34 on her ACT (we don't do SAT).

That is a very high score. At a good medical school, that's the norm. I've had undergrads who scored 32+ on their ACT tell me medical school makes what they did as an undergrad seem like child's play. Anyone who is telling her that medical school coursework will be "pretty simple" because she's a pharmacist simply does not know what they are talking about. Period. No one finds medical school "pretty simple." That kind of arrogance and/or ignorance is breathtaking.

You should heed the words of the folks in this thread who are in medical school. My sister just graduated from a good medical school, and would tell you the same things they are. She'd also tell you that of the six non-trad married with children students who started with her, five finished, one with their marriage intact (possibly due to the kids being in high school).

If your wife thinks that inept managers and weak administrators who buckle to shit doctors will cease being an issue when she's an ER physician, she's mistaken. These are often hospital-specific cultures. My father is a physician who tries very hard to minimize his involvement with certain hospitals - because of inept managers and bad doctors. My sister chose her residency primarily on its culture (or rather, didn't go where she didn't like the environment). Whether you're a Pharm.D or a physician, you have to deal with the negative aspects of a hospital. I wonder if a change of employer might be a better solution to these problems than a different career.

Clearly your wife is good at what she does: people come to her for help, which is very high praise. Yet it seems she's insecure about it - otherwise she'd dismiss doctors telling her that she could be doing something 'more.' Especially when ED doctors tell her that. Surely she knows that the ED is not where you generally find the sharpest physicians? If she's vulnerable to that type of suggestion now as a Pharm.D, what's going to happen when people comment 'I wonder why she's not a cardiologist or neurologist instead of a emergency doctor?'

Finally, given the trends in physician pay, you're naive if you think physicians will be making the same amount of money in 10, 20, and 30 years that they are now. The average ER doctor today makes about $250,000/year. That number will be going down. Your wife already makes $125,000/year. That number will not be going down. The best case is that the difference stays about the same (an unlikely best case). If your wife is in her early thirties, she'll have about 20 years at full physician salary after med school and residency. That's about $2 million more as a doctor than pharmacist. Now subtract from that the seven years her income will be close to zero vs. $125k/year if she stayed in pharmacy. You're down to about $1.2 million more as the doctor. Now subtract the out of pocket cost of med school, and you're down below a million. Now subtract the cost of interest on loans, and you're approaching $750,000. What about the decreased value of retirement funds like 401k etc that would be lost?

This is basically the most important decision you and your wife are likely to make in the rest of your lives. Good luck.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Well there's always towns out in the sticks who will let her work and payoff a chunk of her loans. But then the whole family has to serve a term in Siberia along with her.

That's my point. IIRC, they just built a home. So they aren't going to want to move from it in 7 years for the job I'm guessing.
 

spinejam

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
3,503
1
81
Realistically, you have a very tough road ahead for sure. Everyone at your wifey's job is supporting this agenda which might not be in your (family's) best interest. My wife, like your's, is very smart and capable -- she works in a hospital so I understand the position you are in. She hears the same song from different doctors blowing-up her ego...etc. It is imperative that you continue to communicate your concerns w/ her and she understands how this situation affects you and your marriage/kids. You do not want her to begin to resent you for being the sensible / cautious one when everyone else she respects and works with says Go Go Go!

Best of luck!
 
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PhoKingGuy

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2007
4,689
0
76
She's a sharp cookie. 34 on her ACT (we don't do SAT). 36 is highest. She was 99th percentile on her PCAT (Pharmacy admittance) and did a 3.7 in Pharmacy school working almost full time.

Disclaimer, I was a peer counselor for pre-med undergrads in college.

Pardon me for being harsh, this sounds exactly what some deluded undergrad would say. Those have absolutely no baring on anything. I learned more in my first week of med school than I did for all of undergrad (no joke).

In fact, I think I studied harder for my first round of block tests than I did for my MCAT (which she would have to study for and take, infinetly harder than PCAT)

Im not trying to be discouraging, I just don't want to think that its going to be 6-7 years of "discomfort" then living luxury.

Lots of good points being brought up by others in the thread regarding physician compensation, time away, school choices etc. Consider all of that, this cycle of apps is starting now, but shes not prepared for it so earliest would be next year. You also seem very sure shes going to the local med school, that probably won't happen unless she knows every single person in the adcom, and even then they are generally obligated to excuse themselves from reviewing her application. Are you prepared to move for it?

She will be earning 40-50k a year while in residency for 3-4 years (depends on program and if you want to do a fellowship or not), can you handle that?

As someone whose taught MCAT, its completely unrelated to anything shes done, do you remember basic physics, molecular biology, basic chemistry? Yeah it may be easy to pick up, but she will need to study quite hard for it. Non-trads with lower scores are not looked at very well.

Good luck.
 
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