Wife wants to go back to Med School...having troubles with the math on this.

[Perknose]

I think this sounds like a done deal even if the math doesn't add up. She's unhappy now and will be unhappy for the rest of her life is she doesn't get to take this step. That's the part where you have to throw the numbers out the window. 7 bad years in exchange for 25 good and happy ones where she gets to live out a dream or the rest of your lives where she feels growing resentment and you feel guilt.

Hammer meet nail. Thread.

:/

Bingo. You're a good man, vi. I don't envy you this situation, but it does sound like a done deal to me. At some point, emotion trumps logic, and there's eternal hell to pay if you don't find a way to go along.

Easy to say as a man. We can turn shit off when we walk out the door. We redirect emotion in different ways. We don't have breakdowns in the middle of a shift or come home in tears after rough days.

^^^ This.

 

[Eug]

I'm not well versed in the US education system, but it seems to me that if you're talking about high school ACT scores, you're barking up the wrong tree. Has she taken her MCAT yet? What was her GPA in university, and was it a good school?

Oh and houses can always be sold.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I'm not well versed in the US education system, but it seems to me that if you're talking about high school ACT scores, you're barking up the wrong tree. Has she taken her MCAT yet? What was her GPA in university, and was it a good school?

Oh and houses can always be sold.

ACT, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, GMAT, etc are all standardized tests and success on one is generally a good predictor of success on the others. Assuming the appropriate training/education. (That is, a 34 on the ACT at 17 generally means a high score on the GRE at 21 if you've been through three years of undergrad.)

 

[sactoking]

You touched on it a bit but I wanted to expand upon this:

It's basically 7 years of hell on everyone. Then 4 years of more hell trying to dig out of debt. 6 years of playing catchup on savings games to bump retirement . Then when we finally hit 50 it'll be pretty damn nice.

if she does this you'll be playing catch-up until you're 50. That's with nothing unexpected. Once you hit 50 you will be caught-up, nothing more, not ahead of the game. Think about retirement.

Based on what she currently makes and an assumption that you make a decent salary you could be looking to retire together when you're 50. If she goes back to school there is zero chance of that happening.

When you hit 50 you will be caught-up, nothing more. You could retire together then, but you won't. There are a few reasons:
1) Keeping up with the Jonses. Doctors have different social circles with different socioeconomic expectations. When she starts making $350k/yr your household expenses will skyrocket. This means that you won't actually be caught up at 50.
2) Even if you don't get sucked into that cycle the money will stop her from retiring. If you hit 50 and she's making $350k and you just got caught up with the expenses of school, do you really think she'll retire to part-time work? No, you're going to want to take advantage of that earning power. If she retires to part time work she'll be making $120-175k per year (estimated). That's what she'd have been making if she didn't go back to school. Yes, $175k part time is better than $175k full time but $175k part time is worse than full-time retirement, which is where you'd be without the school.
3) 7 years of school. 10 years of work. 17 years for the career change. Do you think that she will put herself, you, and the family through that type of social and financial hell for 10 years of work? Hell no! Doctors can pretty much work until they die. If she goes back to med school expect her to work well past when she would have retired in order to make it "worth it".

This doesn't even account for the fact that she could go through all of that and still hate the job. She liked pharmacy when she started and now she doesn't, so there's already a history of "poor decision making". What's that, she doesn't like pharmacy because of the people? Well, if she believes the grass is greener in doctorworld, she's deluded. Doctors are type-A, perfectionists. You know who manages doctors? Other doctors. You know who make terrible managers? Type-A perfectionists.

Look, I get the whole mid-life crisis thing and needing a change: my wife just went through that earlier this year when she became self-employed. However, there is a fungible line whereby mid-life crises become selfish and dangerous and, from how I've understood it, this scenario is well over that line.

 

[ichy]

I scored a 35 on my ACT and I'd be scared as shit of medical school.

How a person did on a standardized test in high school doesn't really have much of a bearing on how likely they are to succeed in med school.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I think this sounds like a done deal even if the math doesn't add up. She's unhappy now and will be unhappy for the rest of her life is she doesn't get to take this step. That's the part where you have to throw the numbers out the window. 7 bad years in exchange for 25 good and happy ones where she gets to live out a dream or the rest of your lives where she feels growing resentment and you feel guilt.

Now that you've come this far talking about numbers and workloads and all that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Your life is about to be turned upside down one way or the other. Either you work things out to help your wife achieve her goals or every day live with the knowledge that you could have and didn't. Which path has the best chance of a happy ending?

This. Life is too short and money isn't everything. Life isn't perfect and if you felt the same, you'd hope that she would be supportive of your dreams. With family close by, it sounds like it's doable but with some sacrifice.

 

[SirStev0]

I graduated Med School less than a week ago. To be honest, I fucking loved it.
You guys just need to sit down and talk it out.

I have friends who were older with kids who went in. I won't sugar coat it. About 60% of them are divorced or separated. Med School is terrible on a relationship. I made it through with my finance, but it wasn't easy.
People don't realize the absolute time commitment. Compared to undergrad and grad school (I went to Penn State for both), we were going through Semester's worth of grad level classes in a few weeks. 1st and 2nd year are full on book and lecture learning 24-7. You fill the few gaps you have with drinking and if you are lucky sexual favors.
3rd and 4th year are in hospital unpaid bitch work. Sorry, not unpaid, paid for bitch work. Yeah, you are paying med school tuition to hold retractors, dis-impact fecal matter, write consults and maybe suture.
With all that said, I still loved it. I have not gotten used to the "I am a doctor" thing yet, but I am very happy I did it.
Would I do it again? Fuck yes.
Did I luck out? More than I can possibly comprehend.

In my opinion, don't hold back. Just tell her to get ready for 4 years of hell and debt and experience is great but don't expect it to carry you. The shit they have you learn, especially 1st year, is very different than what a lot of people go in thinking. We had PharmD's in our class struggling right along with the rest of us.

 

[SirStev0]

I should also mention, that I have a Pharm acquaintance who asked me similar questions and I told him the same thing.

I don't know what or why but I think there were quite a few people in the last few years that went into Pharm thinking their job wasn't going to be what it was. He is very unhappy in the field as well. Worked in a hospital for quite a while and felt that no one gave a shit about what he was doing and basically would only call for weird things that even he had to look up, making him a glorified google search. Now he is working at a CVS and doesn't mind the work but feels like a complete waste of an education.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

However, there is a fungible line whereby mid-life crises become selfish and dangerous and, from how I've understood it, this scenario is well over that line.

Very, very blunt. And I concur with everything you said - except the part about ED physicians making $350k/yr, because they make a lot less than that, usually.

 

[SirStev0]

Well, if she believes the grass is greener in doctorworld, she's deluded. Doctors are type-A, perfectionists. You know who manages doctors? Other doctors. You know who make terrible managers? Type-A perfectionists.

Not all of us. I am very proudly a non-type A-ist. There are not many of us but we still sneak in and fool those suckers.
And I graduated with High Honors to bote.

 

[rcpratt]

How a person did on a standardized test in high school doesn't really have much of a bearing on how likely they are to succeed in med school.

I think it has a lot to do with their potential to succeed in medical school.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I think it has a lot to do with their potential to succeed in medical school.

Correct. That's the point of standardized tests in general.

 

[SirStev0]

Very, very blunt. And I concur with everything you said - except the part about ED physicians making $350k/yr, because they make a lot less than that, usually.

Depends where.
I know ED docs that make much more than this. The one ED doc I worked with just climbed Everest this year. Paid for it all easily.
They tend to work shifts too which is pretty nice compared to most other medicine specialties. Many work 2 weeks a month 12 hours a day. Not all that bad considering.

There is a demand for pretty much every kind of doctor there is. If you graduate high and get a good residency you can come out pretty much calling your salary and terms.

I haven't even started residency yet and I have hospitals and head hunters calling me trying to get me under contract.

And you can negotiate all sorts of things on top of salary. My buddy is getting bankrolled to start his own practice after residency and I am trying to get my loans taken care of. Now with that you usually have to accept working in an underserved area, either rural or inner city, but usually only a few years and then you are free.

It requires some finagling but it is possible.

 

[vi edit]

Very, very blunt. And I concur with everything you said - except the part about ED physicians making $350k/yr, because they make a lot less than that, usually.

Salaries are so regional that it's really kind a pointless to throw numbers out. My wife makes almost 40% more at the hospital she is at vs what she would be getting paid had she stayed on with the state facility that she did her residency at 6 hours away. She makes 25% more than another state run med center 2 hours away. Same thing with other areas of healthcare. She's had 3rd year residents tell her what their contract offers were for staying with the group in the area. It's considerably more than other offers in much larger/more desireable areas because those places don't have to pay to get people to be there. Plus it's based on hours worked. That figure is on 160 scheduled hours. Many others may quote on 120 hours a month. At $175/hr that's $84,000 a year difference.

 

[Eug]

ACT, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, GMAT, etc are all standardized tests and success on one is generally a good predictor of success on the others. Assuming the appropriate training/education. (That is, a 34 on the ACT at 17 generally means a high score on the GRE at 21 if you've been through three years of undergrad.)

My point here was that ACT scores don't matter on an individual basis, because the admissions dept won't care. While ACT scores may be a general predictor of further test performance population-wise, it's a completely different kettle of fish on an individual basis.

I know many people with very good SATs or other comparable tests at that level, who didn't get into med school. Add 10 years to the age, and those SATs (or ACTs in this case) seem like ancient history.

Like I said before, my friend who was near the top of her university classes had a tough time in medical school. And what I didn't tell you is that she didn't even get in the first time around.

Actually I had said this several times to her that just because she's a very smart person with great scores in high school and university, and who did well in her job, doesn't mean she's guaranteed a position in med school. And that's just any med school. It's a whole degree harder to get into to the med school you want in a specific location. It was a huge reality check for her... as was the fact that she was at best average in the class.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

how old are your kids? you may find your self staring at college bills right around the time your wife gets finished paying off her own!

also, my understanding was that students did not get to choose where their residency takes place. what happens if that part of the plan falls through?

 

[BoomerD]

You're definitely "in between a rock and a hard place."

If you support her in this...life for you and the kids is gonna suck for several years, and both the financial costs and personal costs are going to be very high.

If you DON'T support her in this, either she's going to go along with you...and hold it against you for the rest of your married lives, ("I COULD have been a doctor") or she'll decide to do it anyway...and maybe divorce you to get what she wants.

I know nothing about the rigors of medical school...but from what everyone says, it's murder and VERY demanding...and I suspect those "weekends at home" will often be skipped because of the need to study or for school work demands.

Either way, you're in an unenviable position...

Best wishes.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Salaries are so regional that it's really kind a pointless to throw numbers out.

At this point, there's really only one number that's even relevant: your wife's MCAT score.

 

[sactoking]

Very, very blunt. And I concur with everything you said - except the part about ED physicians making $350k/yr, because they make a lot less than that, usually.

Well, I just used that because I think that was the figure OP used.

Not all of us. I am very proudly a non-type A-ist. There are not many of us but we still sneak in and fool those suckers.
And I graduated with High Honors to bote.

I acknowledge it was a broad generalization, but the point that being a doctor doesn't lead to magically wonderful working conditions (read: coworkers and managers) is I think still applicable.

 

[rasczak]

Your wife has a dream. Help her reach it? I know the it's seems the biggest problem has to do with the first year. Is it not possible for you all to move and rent your home out for that year? It seems selfish right now, but in the long run won't you be better off for it?

 

[Hugo Drax]

My prediction.
You say no, divorce
You say yes, divorce.

Either out come seems to lead to this path from the tells I am getting.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The way I see it is if she wanted to do medical school, that is something she should have done before having kids. She decided she was ready to "settle down" and start a family. She now wants to put the family, and financials from that family she decided she was ready to have a few years ago, in the backseat to chase her dreams. She should have done this years ago. She has obligations she choose to make, and now needs to honor those.

Very well said.

 

[vi edit]

I don't know what or why but I think there were quite a few people in the last few years that went into Pharm thinking their job wasn't going to be what it was. He is very unhappy in the field as well. Worked in a hospital for quite a while and felt that no one gave a shit about what he was doing and basically would only call for weird things that even he had to look up, making him a glorified google search. Now he is working at a CVS and doesn't mind the work but feels like a complete waste of an education.

My wife is residency trained, board certifed, and has done intensive and cardiac critical care pretty much her entire career. Her specialty is CV and in the last year has started staffing the ED for her 2nd shifts. That is really what set things in motion. She saw an entire dept working as a team and just really enjoyed the absolute randomness that came through the door each night. We're in a really weird collection of demographics and get everything from farmers getting chewed up in farm equipment to 100+ Gang banger GSW's a year, to the really interesting white trash person hopped up on bathsalts coming in. It's just a circus every night and she loves working there. They just have a get shit done mentality that no other dept has. And that just clicks with her style. She just wilts when she has to go back to the CV floor and deal with the personalities there.

She's tried to get more time back in the ED but she's the only person that has made any headway on the CV unit with the surgeons and their PA's. They won't pull her out. And very few other places even think about staffing pharmacists in the ED so it's not easy to find another job like that.

And just the other thing that pushes her over the edge is that she is constantly practicing on the edge of her license because of her experience and understanding and wants to go that extra step for diagnosis and therapy.

It's that wanting to go the extra step that's the real root and the frustration of her position that's the catalyst.

 

[alkemyst]

99%ile if across the board is very exceptional especially if they weren't coached the test.

The PCAT is very different than the MCAT and the effort for Pharmacy College is nothing like Medical School (talking to friends that did both when I was looking to become a Pharmacist/Doctor/Veterinarian).

Outside of your MCAT, your 'prerequisites' are critical as well as still being able to talk to them.

 

[vi edit]

My prediction.
You say no, divorce
You say yes, divorce.

Either out come seems to lead to this path from the tells I am getting.

Eh. I've gone through pharmacy school with her which was 4 years and a year of Residency in a town that we matched to and didn't want to. No divorce.

I've done a year where I was located 1800 miles away and only coming back every couple weeks. No divorce.

We've done the house construction thing. No divorce.

The house at least was done with one kid.

We're either pretty good at getting through things or unfathomly stubborn.