Wife wants to go back to Med School...having troubles with the math on this.

[sunzt]

OP,

If the situate between you and her were reversed, would she support your decision?

 

[sixone]

In the end, it's her decision. You can talk about the pros and cons until you're blue in the face, but if her mind is made up, it's made up.

The only thing you can do at that point is to try to limit the damage to the kids. Enlist Grandma's help as much as possible, so that they have a positive female influence, as much as possible.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Eh. I've gone through pharmacy school with her which was 4 years and a year of Residency in a town that we matched to and didn't want to. No divorce.

I've done a year where I was located 1800 miles away and only coming back every couple weeks. No divorce.

We've done the house construction thing. No divorce.

The house at least was done with one kid.

We're either pretty good at getting through things or unfathomly stubborn.

I divorced my ex over a situation similar to yours. She wanted to pull up stakes and move so she could go to law school. Academically she was a very good fit. But I lived with her and knew her work ethic was shit and when times were tough she always took crap out on me.

It comes down to trust. Do you trust your wife to make the most of this sacrifice? Because if you start to feel like she isn't appreciating all that you're giving up to let her do this... the story finishes itself.

 

[OverVolt]

"You can be anything you want to be" claims another victim lol.

 

[OverVolt]

I divorced my ex over a situation similar to yours. She wanted to pull up stakes and move so she could go to law school. Academically she was a very good fit. But I lived with her and knew her work ethic was shit and when times were tough she always took crap out on me.

Good decision, the school is expensive and the pay isn't that great for the majority. If you have some sort of connections and just need the law degree then go for it, but for the majority its not a good decision.

 

[JTsyo]

Another thing to consider is being a ER doc won't be a 9-5 job. She's going to have to be on call and it's a high stress job. Is the job even guaranteed when she graduates or could should be looking at having to move after she's done?
I think you'll have to sit down with her and go over all the points. If it's something she just has to do, then so be it. But if he she realizes the risks and missed moments maybe she can walk away with from it. Have you discussed it other family members? I can't imagine many think it's a good point in her life to pursue this.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Good decision, the school is expensive and the pay isn't that great for the majority. If you have some sort of connections and just need the law degree then go for it, but for the majority its not a good decision.

For the right woman I would do it in a heartbeat. Woman I'm with now understands that in a relationship sacrifice isn't a song that only one person sings.

 

[vi edit]

Another thing to consider is being a ER doc won't be a 9-5 job.

She's not in a 9-5 job now. Between 1/3-1/2 of her shifts are nights or weekends. And her first shifts start at 7:00AM on the weekdays and 6:00AM on the weekends. Ands she does have to do a couple 3rds a year but they aren't common. What would change is those 8 hour shifts will change to 10 or 12s. So longer days, less numbers of days.

Not a lot of value in talking to family members. Neither of our parents went further than highschool. None of our siblings went to college. So either of us going to college was new to them. Going beyond that to Pharmacy school was even more foreign. Her doing a residency for that was almost ununderstandable. This...this would probably result in one of them stroking out.

 

[CRXican]

30s is young. She should do it. You only live once.

Yet another reason why people shouldn't have kids.

 

[sygyzy]

This is a great thread and a real you have on your hands. Given what you said about her situation I would advise against this idea. First off, your wife hates her job but it's not like she's some lowly office manager making $15 an hour. She's pulling in $135k and her idea of a bad work environment includes doctors who have so much respect and admiration for her that they continually praise her. This, coupled with her high self worth (justifiably so), makes her want to quit her job and go to med school? She may put you guys in a financial rut that you may never recover from. I know your plan (math) makes it look like it's roses after but that's assuming everything goes exactly to plan and it also discounts the emotional/psychological toll of it all.

 

[SirStev0]

Another thing to consider is being a ER doc won't be a 9-5 job. She's going to have to be on call and it's a high stress job. Is the job even guaranteed when she graduates or could should be looking at having to move after she's done?
I think you'll have to sit down with her and go over all the points. If it's something she just has to do, then so be it. But if he she realizes the risks and missed moments maybe she can walk away with from it. Have you discussed it other family members? I can't imagine many think it's a good point in her life to pursue this.

Of all of the medical specs. ER is by far the most 9-5ish. It is all shift work, no call.
Hospitalists are the same way. You never have your own patients you are just hospital employees covering time slots.

 

[linuxboy]

This is not a financial issue. This is an issue of self-discovery and honesty. Through the years, given the mix of your wife's temperament and internal self, and her experiences, she has realized that what will give her meaning and validation is not contained in her current daily work. And you can talk all you want, and reflect all you want. If this is the result of a good deal of soul-searching by a mature woman, then it's a decision that already has been made. She can't go through life in this state, because the "what if" will haunt her and be like a worm in her soul, until the entire fruit is eaten up and withered.

And yes, she made other choices before, and yes, you have a family, and yes, she has a responsibility and a duty to you. But she is a completely different woman now than the woman who made those choices. And merely acting out of duty will wear her down. For the future, do you want to change with her, and make a joint life together, no matter the difficulty? If you do, then it seems you have several hard years ahead of you. Perhaps, within them, your family will find time to cherish each other and make memories, and continue to love.

All the best wishes to you in your time of reflection.

Cheers !

 

[SirStev0]

She's not in a 9-5 job now. Between 1/3-1/2 of her shifts are nights or weekends. And her first shifts start at 7:00AM on the weekdays and 6:00AM on the weekends. Ands she does have to do a couple 3rds a year but they aren't common. What would change is those 8 hour shifts will change to 10 or 12s. So longer days, less numbers of days.

Not a lot of value in talking to family members. Neither of our parents went further than highschool. None of our siblings went to college. So either of us going to college was new to them. Going beyond that to Pharmacy school was even more foreign. Her doing a residency for that was almost ununderstandable. This...this would probably result in one of them stroking out.

Med Profession is a lot of time. It sounds like she is used to that. As far as family and friends and other physicians and advice I can't tell you much. My fam is the same way. Mom and Dad did trade school after HS, never left their hometowns. No family in medicine or anything past blue collar. I never found much use in advisors. I just kind of went for it.
I can tell you this much, if you wanna do it, you can. She has put in as much time with Pharm as she will have to with Med. If she thinks she can do it again she can.

 

[silverpig]

1. The grass is always greener...
2. 7 years of hell is 7 years you'll never get back. Yeah you might be better off at 50, but you will never be early 30s with young kids again.
3. The logistics sound like crap

My advice with very limited knowledge is to ask her to stick it out for a while longer. When the kids are in school and you can move to be close to her, and are in a better position debt-wise, then you can revisit the opportunity.

 

[surfsatwerk]

And yes, she made other choices before, and yes, you have a family, and yes, she has a responsibility and a duty to you. But she is a completely different woman now than the woman who made those choices. And merely acting out of duty will wear her down. For the future, do you want to change with her, and make a joint life together, no matter the difficulty? If you do, then it seems you have several hard years ahead of you. Perhaps, within them, your family will find time to cherish each other and make memories, and continue to love.

All the best wishes to you in your time of reflection.

Cheers !

I find this all self centered bullshit. A family isn't another choice, it's a responsibility. And anyone who can't be trusted to stay accountable to their responsibilities isn't a person I would want in my life.

 

[jagec]

Through the years, given the mix of your wife's temperament and internal self, and her experiences, she has realized that what will give her meaning and validation is not contained in her current daily work. And you can talk all you want, and reflect all you want. If this is the result of a good deal of soul-searching by a mature woman, then it's a decision that already has been made. She can't go through life in this state, because the "what if" will haunt her and be like a worm in her soul, until the entire fruit is eaten up and withered.

That sounds all good and lofty, but I can guarantee you 100% that if she bombs the MCAT the dream will die quickly and she'll suddenly decide that her current job isn't so bad after all.

The first lesson on the road to happiness is learning to dream. The second is learning to work hard to reach that dream. The third is learning to be happy with where you are, which is almost never your original dream. These lessons tend to roughly follow a person's age, and she is currently somewhere between 2 and 3. Which is why the decision is hard.

 

[linuxboy]

if she bombs the MCAT the dream will die quickly and she'll suddenly decide that her current job isn't so bad after all.

The first lesson on the road to happiness is learning to dream. The second is learning to work hard to reach that dream. The third is learning to be happy with where you are, which is almost never your original dream. These lessons tend to roughly follow a person's age, and she is currently somewhere between 2 and 3. Which is why the decision is hard.

There is a great quantity of truth in your words. And yet, at these crossroads, should she bomb the MCAT, I suspect another dream would take its place, or a period of listlessness instead of finding contentment. For some people, who are propelled by choice or destiny, this learning to be happy part takes many years and much suffering. It seems of the types of suffering possible before the lesson is learned, this may not be a poor choice.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Has anybody taken a look at what that money compounded would be? Or the hit to 401k? I saw earlier some direct financials that said it would take about 10 years to get back to where you're at now.

So it's a net loss of like 800k somebody who did the math said. How much will you lose in your 401k to add on top of that? What about future investing in it for the 7 years? The 350k is only based off estimates, but 7 years from now that might not be the case for salary. Assuming it is though after taxes that's down to ~250k (350*.7) or so. Now I'm assuming the 125k current is pretax as well which means ~90k post tax. So 90k compounding over 4 years, then ~45k compounding over 3 years of lost income plus increased debt. How long after it would an extra ~150k/yr take to recoup the hit? It would be 7 years roughly after that just to get to the same point you would have been after the first 7. Which means if she stayed with the current job vs going to med school, it would take almost 20 years to get to the same point (assuming nothing catastrophic happens during that period).

Please correct my math if anybody wants to, but that was just quick calculations with estimates.

 

[vi edit]

Of all of the medical specs. ER is by far the most 9-5ish. It is all shift work, no call. Hospitalists are the same way. You never have your own patients you are just hospital employees covering time slots.

I wouldn't say 9-5'ish. Non-call'ish sure. But they still do a lot of nights/weekends. I guess the new chic term is "lifestyle specialty" of which the ED really is not. It's balls out for 10-12 hours. Calm yourself down. Crash. Repeat two more shifts. Recover.

 

[linuxboy]

I find this all self centered bullshit. A family isn't another choice, it's a responsibility. And anyone who can't be trusted to stay accountable to their responsibilities isn't a person I would want in my life.

I think past the self there is still an understanding that not all choices are arbitrary, and there is a certain "ought" that each individual needs to carry out. Now what that ought entails is necessarily self-centered because each individual defines it. If this is such a big deal that a focus on duty and commitment, and coming to terms with oneself does not resolve, then, even though it is self-centered, it makes life miserable to have a dream and not pursue it. If it makes life miserable, then isn't it better to be miserable and go for it, than to wallow in the misery? Overall, of course, it's better to not go the self-centered route at all. But humans are not that great at sticking to responsibility no matter what. And when they are, it often makes for more misery without much growth (in my limited experience).

 

[radhak]

She's not in a 9-5 job now. Between 1/3-1/2 of her shifts are nights or weekends. And her first shifts start at 7:00AM on the weekdays and 6:00AM on the weekends. Ands she does have to do a couple 3rds a year but they aren't common. What would change is those 8 hour shifts will change to 10 or 12s. So longer days, less numbers of days.

So, you can anticipate nothing so bad that she (or you) have not seen before, right?

If you love someone, let her go...

One year is nothing in the larger scheme of life, it'll be gone before you know it. You should actually sit down with her, list all your misgivings, and yet say that you'd like her to give this a try. Instead of tying her down with reminders of her promises, duty and loyalty, you could do the reverse - point out your promises, your love and loyalty to her, and whole-heartedly help her in achieving her dream.

Truth is - the only problem is gonna be that first year of separation. And its gonna be tougher on her than you - afterall, you'll have your own home, job, kids, mom, and everything familiar. She'd be without any of that. Yes, you might find it tougher to manage your life, but not impossibly so. Just imagine if she had to deploy to Iraq...!

If anything, she might lose heart in the first 3 months of being away, and it will behoove you to shore her up, encourage her to keep at it and not allow her to give up too soon.

After that year, the rest will probably be much easier on everybody. As for money, if she really achieves her goal and gets to be a doctor, your family will climb to an entirely different plane of finances, guaranteed.

If you don't 'allow her' (that phrase seems a bit anachronistic), or even if you kick-and-scream too much during her efforts to do this, you are going to alienate her, and also cause a lot more misery to both of you, and your families.

Or your wife might end up like me, not reaching her potential because she was reminded of her 'duty', leading to a large sense of resentment all her life...

 

[manimal]

Your wife is going trough something similar to what my wife is experiencing. We made all our decisions carefully and always kept an eye one the financial impacts of said decisions. What I had to do during the entire time is remember how important what you do is to your own self worth and happiness. Some of our choices like leaving very well paying jobs in NYC to relocate to the midwest so we could start a family safely made little sense financially on paper but dwarfed the emotional cost of being very unhappy or overly stressed.

Yes you can endure and do it for your kids. Sometimes though you have to be a little selfish and think about yourself.

Now after we made all those hard choices and have that beutiful family we always wanted she is restless and wants to go back to work or possibly finish her doctorate.

Tough choices. In situations like this I had a friend remind me how many blessings we have to have such choices.

 

[Sust]

Wow, this is a dilly of a pickle.
If it helps at all, I had multiple classmates do med school with kids and continued reproducing through residency too. It is do-able, but as many have pointed out, there is a time penalty paid and the one thing that money cant buy back is time lost. Again, I would disregard the money if possible and focus more on the psychosocial issues at hand. The pre-med, MCAT, med-school, internship, residency, and maybe even fellowship period is not short by any means and riddled with stress that requires a very cold sort of dedication. In hindsight, you can almost see the rigors as barriers left in place to weed people out. At the end of the process, you are a doctor first(IMO) and your responsibility to your pt is paramount.

There are obviously multiple issues at hand here, but the main existential conflict in your wife (again IMO) will be regret from not spending more time with her kids versus regret from not pursuing her ambitions. The classic theme of job vs family which women unfortunately have to battle often. Which will she regret less? Sixone also brought up an excellent point that she's already made some choices which have lead to certain responsibilities to the people in her life. However, you are a couple and you have promised to love each other in good times and bad. Youve already struggled through problems before, but can your relationship accomodate itself around something like this? Tough introspective questions, OP.

I see 4 possible options here:
(1) Defer med school until kids are in some flavor of day schooling or maybe even college. Its not uncommon for some med students to be older since truly outstanding candidates dont necessarily diminish with age. If her ambitions truly burn that high, then it's likely to continue years down the line.

(2) Uproot. Youve probably discussed this already, but alot of the thread was tl;dr. I recall something about job, 401k, etc already in place, but these are all financial benefits/comforts designed to make the future more comfortable/manageable. They are not necessarily necessities. Can you conceive of a life without these luxuries or a job that you're currently happy at?

(3) Long distance
Youve already laid this one out if im not mistaken. Not easy as youve already stated, but is probably the compromise between the first two options. Just bear in mind that you are in it together and if your wife decides that she wants to med school it now, then to continue as her life partner you are pretty much obligated to support her fully.

(4) PA school
Granted, there's not the pomp and circumstance associated with being a PA (plus some minor practice limitations esp if doing surgery), but if you want a quicker end point to clinical duties then this is it. You dont get as much supervised training as MDs, but ive met many many highly skilled mid-level providers. Regardless of whether youre MD/DO/NP/PA/whatever, your skill as a clinician is only as good as the diligence and dedication you put into staying on top of new data and practice of your skill set.

BTW, ATLR-------------->

 

[Slew Foot]

No way, first of all, shes not even guaranteed to get in to the local med school. Second, by the time she's done, ER docs are going to be replaced with PA's and such so the market for them will be very soft. She'll make way more $$$$ as a pharmacist, especially as she works up the chain into management.

 

[Doppel]

Fwiw OP I saw an article on dailymail.co.uk a couple weeks back it said that almost half of current US medical doctors would not do medicine again.

Debt is fvcking insane and you work your ass off a lot of hours. It just is not a great career for one who wants to be around their kids. That is the reality of it. It is prestigious as a career but you will see your kids less.