Wikileaks traitor withering away

[Fenixgoon]

He's guilty (IMO, though not yet proven in court) of A crime, not of treason.

treason:
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

2 and 3 certainly aren't in his favor...

 

[dmcowen674]

A trial isn't even necessary for Manning, thanks to somebody on the internet who proved his guilt.

Now he just needs to be tortured for a while and then executed by firing squad per the UCMJ.

Did they execute him by firing squad yet?

 

[comptr6]

Did they execute him by firing squad yet?

Obviously not, but he's been relocated to the prison where military death row is so he's already one step closer.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I wonder if werepossum and CC think these people are traitors and need to be punished?

Have you guys ever heard of DAniel Ellsberg ? You should, he released the Pentagon papers which showed the government was lying their ass off about Vietnam. That was way higher classified then the stuff Manning released. Somehow he wasn't charged with treason, and the actual charges against him were thrown out.

Note to CC: Go ahead and educate yourself on what Nixon did and tried to do to Ellsberg. Hint: It wasn't legal, and the government did it and continued to do it. It wasn't until a judge got a hold of it that he threw it out. Just another example of government abuse, which of course you think never happens. Since they just stop doing within 24 hours if it wrong, right?

And just as a recent example, but this is just one:

NYT

From the article:

Several government officials who described the impetus for the order would speak only on condition of anonymity because the document is classified. Spokesmen for the White House and the Pentagon declined to comment for this article. The Times, responding to concerns about troop safety raised by an official at United States Central Command, the military headquarters run by General Petraeus, withheld some details about how troops could be deployed in certain countries.

It's another traitor (in your minds). People talked to reports and divulged classified orders!!!! Where is your faux outrage and demand for this person/people to be locked up in solitary and stripped naked for months?

Of course, civilian and military officials leak classified documents and programs all the time. You never complain about them, I wonder why?

 

[werepossum]

I wonder if werepossum and CC think these people are traitors and need to be punished?

Have you guys ever heard of DAniel Ellsberg ? You should, he released the Pentagon papers which showed the government was lying their ass off about Vietnam. That was way higher classified then the stuff Manning released. Somehow he wasn't charged with treason, and the actual charges against him were thrown out.

Note to CC: Go ahead and educate yourself on what Nixon did and tried to do to Ellsberg. Hint: It wasn't legal, and the government did it and continued to do it. It wasn't until a judge got a hold of it that he threw it out. Just another example of government abuse, which of course you think never happens. Since they just stop doing within 24 hours if it wrong, right?

And just as a recent example, but this is just one:

NYT

From the article:



It's another traitor (in your minds). People talked to reports and divulged classified orders!!!! Where is your faux outrage and demand for this person/people to be locked up in solitary and stripped naked for months?

Of course, civilian and military officials leak classified documents and programs all the time. You never complain about them, I wonder why?

I think a bigger question would be why you are on this forum instead of writing Manning swooning letters or hanging around Leavenworth hoping o catch a glimpse of him.

 

[comptr6]

Yeah if you love Bradley so much why don't you marry him?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Manning will get his day in court. I seriously doubt he will leave Leavenworth and if he does he will be an old man with his dishonorable discharge in hand.

 

[alkemyst]

I have not formed an opinon if Manning is guilty or not. There is a lot that we having heard.

It's going to be funny if he pulls an OJ though as all those in fear of the world will never let that rest.

IMHO we should not be locked out of information about our government's actions once those actions have taken place. We should be able to review and react as a nation.

This is more about protecting our leaders than protecting our nation.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If the Army didn't have a strong case/evidence Manning would have been discharged long ago. Most of what's taking place right now is due to various petitions from Manning's lawyer and the military crossing their "T"'s and dotting their "I"'s.

 

[nonlnear]

IMHO we should not be locked out of information about our government's actions once those actions have taken place. We should be able to review and react as a nation.

Well I've got bad news for you then. Your vision of the USA died a long time ago - if it ever existed. (I agree with your sentiment BTW.)

This is more about protecting our leaders than protecting our nation.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[alkemyst]

Well I've got bad news for you then. Your vision of the USA died a long time ago - if it ever existed. (I agree with your sentiment BTW.)

I don't think it's ever existed...it's what should be.

I can understand top secret as it's happening, but once played out we should know...

We are technically just livestock though.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I think a bigger question would be why you are on this forum instead of writing Manning swooning letters or hanging around Leavenworth hoping o catch a glimpse of him.

Wow, can't debate the facts so insult the messenger....that's pretty low for you. Guess it shows your true colors huh?

As to facts (or in your and CC's case, the lack thereof), care to answer the question about other people that have leaked classified data, and who you two aren't screaming for their prosecution? Why aren't you demanind treason proceedings to be brought against these people? Talk about a double standard you have.

All you can do is throw insults? And CC bailed as usual on the thread when shown to have no knowledge of what he spoke about. Typical.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Regretfully, I have been busy. Also, unless new info comes along, people are trying to spin what has already been shown to be true. MAnning deliberately released classified documents; some may have gotten people killed.

Documents that are classified are done so for a reason. One may not approve, but to take it upon yourself to generate an unauthorized release is wrong.

To release them outside the authorized chain is a break of your oath.
Punishment should be jail time and/or discharge from ones position.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Regretfully, I have been busy. Also, unless new info comes along, people are trying to spin what has already been shown to be true. MAnning deliberately released classified documents; some may have gotten people killed.

Documents that are classified are done so for a reason. One may not approve, but to take it upon yourself to generate an unauthorized release is wrong.

To release them outside the authorized chain is a break of your oath.
Punishment should be jail time and/or discharge from ones position.

First off, no one has shown, what, 6 months later?, that anyone died. So stop with that, it just shows you are making up hypothetical possibilities.Even the military now admits the leak was a nuisance and not really dangerous. Stop with the intentional FUD.

Second, I don't think anyone here, including myself, has said he should not be tried, and if convicted, sentenced to whatever the judge says. You make it seem like everyone wants to let him go. Do you always try to obfuscate so much? Nothing else to argue?

The point, which you are so pointedly ignoring, is if the military is breaking the law by punishing (abusing) Manning pre-conviction. And you continue to ignore this point.

Some simple, undisputed facts that both sides already agree on:

1. UCMJ specifically states you cannot punish someone pre-conviction
2. Manning, while in Quantico, was the *only* prisoner treated as harshly as he was.
3. Military psychologists have said, time and time again, he is not a suicide risk, and is not a threat to hurt himself.
4. The Marines have ignored that, and continued to increase the severity of his treatment (stripped naked at night and for role call), again, Manning is the only one treated this way.
4. He continued to be on POI (prevention of injury) watch - Now how could you do that when the doctors say he isn't a suicide risk?
5. His lawyer has filed a complaint to the base commander (denied) and appealed to SecNav (denied). Note that these aren't lawyers. Again, it's like asking a policeman to investigate police abuse. There is a strong possibility that they won't stop it, and you know it. No military judge has yet heard anything about Manning. Again, it's possible this move was to stop a judicial complaint, like I mentioned above? It's been done before.

Given all of that, your only excuse was that the military wouldn't do anything wrong, and if they did, they would stop it 24 hours.

Your quote:

Abuses can be identified; brought to a judge and ordered corrected inside 24 hours.

BTW, that is utter BS and you know it. If you read his lawyers blog, you would know how incorrect you are. Why do you argue things you don't know? Trivial googling would have found this info.

So given the above facts, no one to date has yet explained why he is treated so severely. It isn't to prevent him hurting himself (see the doctors reports), it can't be to protect him from other inmates (lots of less abusive ways to do that), so what is it? So what else could it be, other then punishment? Again, UCMJ doesn't allow anything more then to get him safely to trial uninjured.

Based on the facts, it looks like abuse. Why else is he singled out. What is your case? Facts please, not the blanket "they wouldn't do it if it was illegal", everyone knows that isn't an argument.

And since you are so into traitors, you ignored my other point. Where is your faux outrage over Ellsberg not being tried for treason? Where is your outrage for all the other anonymous people that leak classified info every month to reporters? I don't see you complaining for them. Double-standard much?

And no comment on werepossum's fact free insult, since he can't argue any facts? That is the second time various trolls couldn't respond to my argument, and throw out homophobic statements and slurs.

So give a logical reason why he is singled out for such harsh treatment before a trail?

 

[EagleKeeper]

is if the military is breaking the law by punishing (abusing) Manning pre-conviction

Apparently, the military is not breaking the law.

If so, his lawyers would have been able to get him into a comfy country club holding pen.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Apparently, the military is not breaking the law.

If so, his lawyers would have been able to get him into a comfy country club holding pen.

Proof? Evidence? Anything other then your gut instinct? Typical. No one can come up with any rational reason. I listed plenty of facts, and a few possibilities. You can't or won't even answer my questions.

I guess police brutality never happens in your mind, since it is illegal, the police never would do it.

And you continue to ignore my questions about Ellsberg? i wonder why? I mean you brought Benedict Arnold (a 200+ year example), but you drop it? Guess you got nothing.

Also, no comment on the homophobic insults? Going to ignore that too I guess. Must be nice to ignore like 95% of an argument a and cherry-pick the few things you are willing to talk about.

I mean really, werepossum couldn't defend it either, he just resulted to hurling homophobic insults. You guys are real classy, I must say.

 

[werepossum]

Wow, can't debate the facts so insult the messenger....that's pretty low for you. Guess it shows your true colors huh?

As to facts (or in your and CC's case, the lack thereof), care to answer the question about other people that have leaked classified data, and who you two aren't screaming for their prosecution? Why aren't you demanind treason proceedings to be brought against these people? Talk about a double standard you have.

All you can do is throw insults? And CC bailed as usual on the thread when shown to have no knowledge of what he spoke about. Typical.

Just tweaking the messenger's nose actually; it's obvious that you have special feelings for him, how can pointing that out be an insult? (EDIT: Note that this is NOT necessarily homosexual attraction. You may merely identify with him and find him a role model, but obviously you have special feelings for him. I do not know and, luckily, I do not care.)

As to Manning, I am not demanding treason proceedings against him. But I do think there is a big difference between someone who leaks classified evidence in specific instances to show government malfeasance (in other words, a whistle blower) and someone who merely leaks every bit of classified info he can lay his grubby little virtual hands on to punish the government for not making him someplace to fit in. In other words, a spoiled, evil little twat dripping willing to endanger others to make himself feel better. And if he "pulls an O.J." and gets acquitted, I'll consider him in the same vein as O.J. - someone has been found not legally guilty as charged. Duh.

EDIT: Also, please note that none of us are calling for Manning to be stripped naked, watched continuously, kept in solitary confinement. Personally I don't care either way, as long as he is not allowed to pass any additional damaging information along. We're merely saying that his case is being watched very closely by a great number of very liberal people. When the military has overstepped its authority, the offending persons have been quickly slapped down and/or replaced, with their orders countermanded. To most of us, that argues much more convincingly that his treatment is NOT illegal than his lawyers' and fan clubs' online allegations argue to the contrary.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Did they execute him by firing squad yet?

Obviously not, but he's been relocated to the prison where military death row is so he's already one step closer.

Cool

Do they televise the execution?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Just tweaking the messenger's nose actually; it's obvious that you have special feelings for him, how can pointing that out be an insult? (EDIT: Note that this is NOT necessarily homosexual attraction. You may merely identify with him and find him a role model, but obviously you have special feelings for him. I do not know and, luckily, I do not care.)

As to Manning, I am not demanding treason proceedings against him. But I do think there is a big difference between someone who leaks classified evidence in specific instances to show government malfeasance (in other words, a whistle blower) and someone who merely leaks every bit of classified info he can lay his grubby little virtual hands on to punish the government for not making him someplace to fit in. In other words, a spoiled, evil little twat dripping willing to endanger others to make himself feel better. And if he "pulls an O.J." and gets acquitted, I'll consider him in the same vein as O.J. - someone has been found not legally guilty as charged. Duh.

EDIT: Also, please note that none of us are calling for Manning to be stripped naked, watched continuously, kept in solitary confinement. Personally I don't care either way, as long as he is not allowed to pass any additional damaging information along. We're merely saying that his case is being watched very closely by a great number of very liberal people. When the military has overstepped its authority, the offending persons have been quickly slapped down and/or replaced, with their orders countermanded. To most of us, that argues much more convincingly that his treatment is NOT illegal than his lawyers' and fan clubs' online allegations argue to the contrary.

To be honest, you are completely wrong. I don't identify with him, and certainly don't think of him as a role model? What on earth would make you think that? If you see someone arrested by the police, and see him get the crap beaten out of him, does that mean you have a connection with him if you protest his treatment? Sounds more like big-time backpedaling on your part, now that you realize what you wrote and are trying to get out of it. Again, that kind of comment is pretty low for you.

I have stated he should be treated like any other accused person, and tried like any other accused person. If found guilty, let the judge/jury sentence him. Case closed, problem over. Could care less what his punishment is as long as the judge/jury do it.

I do have problems with the government overstepping its boundaries and abusing *any* accused people. It is pretty clear that most likely, either the government doesn't have good evidence to convict him, and are/were trying to break him to get him to confess, as well as treating him harshly to make a point to any other potential whistleblowers, "guess what, if you leak, law or not, we will screw you over".

You don't think the government doesn't like to be embarrassed? Have you read the latest gitmo leaks from wikileaks? Lots of people the US *knew* and admitted to be innocent, yet were locked up for years without any rights?


And many people have posted that they don't see anything wrong with his treatment. CC for instance is just the latest. As to his treatment, I posted the facts so far. How do you explain his being singled out for such abusive treatment?

And given once transferred, he will be in medium security, so right there, it kind of shows that someone has admitted the treatment was wrong. If it wasn't wrong, why would they reduce his containment security level?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

There's no guarantee that Manning will be placed in the medium security section of Leavenworth. He will be evaluated upon arrival and the military may choose to place him in the maximum security section. Due to the sensitivity of the case he also may still be placed in solitary confinement in the medium security section. I suspect it will be just as difficult if not worse when it comes to visitors.

 

[jonks]

There's no guarantee that Manning will be placed in the medium security section of Leavenworth. He will be evaluated upon arrival and the military may choose to place him in the maximum security section. Due to the sensitivity of the case he also may still be placed in solitary confinement in the medium security section. I suspect it will be just as difficult if not worse when it comes to visitors.

Is there a maximum security section at a medium security prison?

Regardless, his treatment will no doubt be better since the whole point of moving him was to quell the tempest of criticism; seems rather pointless to move him and continue the mistreatment, especially the sleep deprivation.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Leavenworth has both a maximum and medium security sections. I'm glad you think his treatment will be better, hopefully the bloggers will feel the same way and nothing more will be posted about this until the Court Martial is finished. Keep in mind that the Court Martial could be more than a year from now.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Proof? Evidence? Anything other then your gut instinct? Typical. No one can come up with any rational reason. I listed plenty of facts, and a few possibilities. You can't or won't even answer my questions.

I guess police brutality never happens in your mind, since it is illegal, the police never would do it.

And you continue to ignore my questions about Ellsberg? i wonder why? I mean you brought Benedict Arnold (a 200+ year example), but you drop it? Guess you got nothing.

Also, no comment on the homophobic insults? Going to ignore that too I guess. Must be nice to ignore like 95% of an argument a and cherry-pick the few things you are willing to talk about.

I mean really, werepossum couldn't defend it either, he just resulted to hurling homophobic insults. You guys are real classy, I must say.

1) What homophobic insults have I issued.

2) His lawyers need to bring things up to the courts and have the courts rule. If they have not, it is because they are wiser than the groupies.
If they have and been shot down; that is the system that is working.

I previously explained my feelings about violations of security clearances.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

1) What homophobic insults have I issued.

None, (and I never said you did) but you must have seen the ones from nebor (earlier in the thread), and from werepossum and comptroll

2) His lawyers need to bring things up to the courts and have the courts rule. If they have not, it is because they are wiser than the groupies.
If they have and been shot down; that is the system that is working.

I previously explained my feelings about violations of security clearances.

So no real justification for his treatment. Gotcha. And still ignoring Ellsberg and all the other anonymous leakers as well. Gotcha again. You are very picky in who you vilify. Hmmm.

 

[EagleKeeper]

A leaker should be punished to the full extent of the law.

That was previously stated.

His treatment is being done by the military and unless the law/courts override it, it is considered legal.

Fair is a different story; my feelings toward that have already been posted.

The homophodic insults were mentioned by you when quoting myslf.

According to the rules of the game, I should not be Moderating a thread that I am participating in unless there is a excessive reason to break the neutral zone.