Will Anantech support IPv6?

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Ninjazx

Member
May 29, 2004
122
0
76
Its not "that simple".

Thats like waiting for a problem that is known to be coming to happen, then trying to push out a fix for it, rather than just fixing it to begin with.

Thats terrible planning. Its all about the future. Those who are not a part of it will be left behind.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Ninjazx
Its not "that simple".

Thats like waiting for a problem that is known to be coming to happen, then trying to push out a fix for it, rather than just fixing it to begin with.

Thats terrible planning. Its all about the future. Those who are not a part of it will be left behind.

And those that deploy a technology that is and will continue to be (in the forseeable future) in the research phase will wreak havoc on reliable communications.

It just simply isn't baked yet.
 
Jul 12, 2004
37
0
0
And those that deploy a technology that is and will continue to be (in the forseeable future) in the research phase will wreak havoc on reliable communications. It just simply isn't baked yet.
IPv6 isn't in the research phase yet. I has been researched for over 10 years. In fact it is deemed to be baked and ready so root servers and top-level domains have started to provide IPv6 access in public (rather than just on development nets).

Also, spidey07, you have not yet answered my questions about NAT issues when both peers respectively are behind NAT. Because this is very common today.

If two ISPs, a and b, have only NATed access then users from ISP a can never directly communicate with users from USP b. This is the reality for many today. It is not the internet I want. NAT is a temporary fix, but far from the sollution. Sure there are legitimate uses, but many are not.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
If two ISPs, a and b, have only NATed access then users from ISP a can never directly communicate with users from USP b

Exactly. And any company with a decent security policy would have restrictions like that already. Home users are another issue, but you don't have to stick yourself behind a device doing NAT if you don't want to.
 
Jul 12, 2004
37
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Exactly. And any company with a decent security policy would have restrictions like that already. Home users are another issue, but you don't have to stick yourself behind a device doing NAT if you don't want to.
Yes, there are a number of reasons where one being a multiple computers at home and another being some ISPs only provide NATed access.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Gatak
And those that deploy a technology that is and will continue to be (in the forseeable future) in the research phase will wreak havoc on reliable communications. It just simply isn't baked yet.
IPv6 isn't in the research phase yet. I has been researched for over 10 years. In fact it is deemed to be baked and ready so root servers and top-level domains have started to provide IPv6 access in public (rather than just on development nets).

Also, spidey07, you have not yet answered my questions about NAT issues when both peers respectively are behind NAT. Because this is very common today.

If two ISPs, a and b, have only NATed access then users from ISP a can never directly communicate with users from USP b. This is the reality for many today. It is not the internet I want. NAT is a temporary fix, but far from the sollution. Sure there are legitimate uses, but many are not.

It is in the research/testing phase. The vendors have only basic functionality that v4 provides today. Its finally to the point that we're trying to run actuall network applications with IPv6 like FTP.

The most basic application - FTP.

On the nat question two hosts behind nat devices. They communicate with each other just fine.

I'm not saying v6 is a bad thing. I think its great. But in also know that I've been building networks for over 10 years now. And have seen the hype over IPv6. I just think you're falling for that hype without really realizing the implications or what is needed to implement it. Or how any and all development is in v4.

v6 will come, it will mature and we'll start seeing major peering points pop up. But only after it can deliver what v4 can today. Because right now it can not do what we are doing today.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
Originally posted by: spidey07
And those that deploy a technology that is and will continue to be (in the forseeable future) in the research phase will wreak havoc on reliable communications.
It just simply isn't baked yet.

That's the most asinine thing that I've read yet about IPv6. Considering the newest consumer-level OS, with about 90% of the market worldwide, now has out-of-the-box support, I think it's a little beyond "research" phase by now. Countries like Japan, are planning to roll out IPv6 services big-time, in the 2005-2006 timeframe. That's still some time away, but it's not all that far away, either. Cisco is selling "IP phones", commercially, with IPv6 support, and many mobile phone operators are, I'm sure, looking at support for mobile IPv6 for next-gen cellphones. Considering how popular IM'ing is via cellular phone, it's not suprising.

Not to mention, if IPv6 is deployed gradually, in parallel with IPv4, rather than switched-over cold, it shouldn't disrupt the "reliable communications" of the existing IPv4 network much. (Of course, in the "real world", change always leads to some unexpected distruption, no matter what, I will concede that point. Murphy is alive and well.)
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
Originally posted by: Nothinman
If two ISPs, a and b, have only NATed access then users from ISP a can never directly communicate with users from USP b

Exactly. And any company with a decent security policy would have restrictions like that already. Home users are another issue, but you don't have to stick yourself behind a device doing NAT if you don't want to.

No, you totally missed the point - if IPv6 is never adopted, then IPv4 addresses are going to run thin, costs for those addresses are going to rise due to scarcity, or they will simply go into rationed allocation, and most likely, ISPs that are serving consumers, of which cost is a primary factor, will simply stop handing out publically-addressable IPs. That has already happened in places, and unfortunately, unless the IPv4 address crunch is removed via moving towards IPv6, it will continue to get worse.

So eventually, home users are forced behind their ISPs NAT devices, and have "no way out" to the real internet. Of course, their ISP can set up a transparent proxy on their internet network, and use their singular "real" IP address to proxy HTTP requests to other commercial web sites, and therefore, those ISPs will tell their customers to "shove it" when asked about the problem, because those customers can still access microsoft.com and google.com.

Think about it - that's a very real, and very scary, possibility. If that ever happens, then that means that the internet is dead, replaced by some psuedo-internet that is not much more than HTTP-based interactive cable television. Instead of viewing shows, you look at web pages. But the effect is similar, and the entirely democratizing notion of freely-available, end-to-end communications, is gone. We are all walled off from each other, all trapped behind our own ISP-imposed "iron curtains" or "berlin walls".

I sincerely hope, that if something like that ever starts to happen, that enough people move to installing their own decentralized wifi meshes all over their neighborhoods, and set up their own internet. It won't be easy, but it's still possible - unless, of course, the FCC decides to take back and close down free unlicensed public access to the ISM bands. Then we're all screwed.

I already consider it a partial-failure of the IPv4-based internet, that in most homes today, there are multiple people, each with at least one computer that they use as one of their primary communications devices to interact with the rest of the online world. It is already a breakdown in those end-to-end communications that the entire household has to deal with sharing a single IP address.

Couldn't you imagine the outcry, if every household, and every business, in the US was only allowed to have one single phone number per physical address? What if everyone in your household, had their own cell phone, but were still only allowed to share a single number? Every time someone called in, all of you, in different locations, would be prompted to pick up the phone, unnecessarily. Speaking of which, have you ever had to use a "party line" landline phone? I have. The entire section of the street is basically assigned a single line, with a single phone number. It's a crazy mess. That's the situation that IPv4 is basically almost in right now, and it can only get worse, the more IP-enabled devices and technologies that proliferate in the market today, and the only clear way to alleviate the problem, is widespread global adoption of IPv6 networking.

Edit: To try to bring this slightly more back on-topic, let me say this. The original question was whether or not AT would or should adopt IPv6 (I assume, in addition to, being on the IPv4 internet). That question veered off into discussions about the merits or lack thereof, of IPv4 vs. IPv6 right now, and the costs and benefits to businesses in general. However, a business, with many users, or many machines, would both have higher costs, and also I believe higher benefits, in the longer term, in moving to IPv6.

Anandtech, being primarily just a web site, with probably only a few machines in their hosted co-lo space, probably doesn't have a lot of need for multiple IPs, so therewould would benefit less from a switch from IPv4 to IPv6... BUT - it is for the same reasons, that the cost for AT to move to IPv6 would also most likely be lower, and therefore the transition easier, to move to IPv6-enabling AT. (Actual costs are I'm sure up to their upstream provider.)

But the *public perception* and positive PR gained by AT proving its technological leadership in the field, by adopting IPv6, would be relatively much greater, and would provide a PR boost to IPv6 deployment in general, I believe. Which is why, I believe that it should be seriously considered, and weighed against whatever costs they would incur from their upstream.
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry


Not to mention, if IPv6 is deployed gradually, in parallel with IPv4, rather than switched-over cold, it shouldn't disrupt the "reliable communications" of the existing IPv4 network much. (Of course, in the "real world", change always leads to some unexpected distruption, no matter what, I will concede that point. Murphy is alive and well.)

My point Exactly. Once the infustructure is setup, it makes it more viable to businesses that are putting in new networks or just upgrading old ones. You have to understand that "right now," there are probably tons of businesses that would not profit from implementing IPv6.

As usual , the upgrade curve is what will provide the changeover naturally.


Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
That's still some time away, but it's not all that far away, either. Cisco is selling "IP phones", commercially, with IPv6 support, and many mobile phone operators are, I'm sure, looking at support for mobile IPv6 for next-gen cellphones. Considering how popular IM'ing is via cellular phone, it's not suprising.

You are looking at but a fraction of the worlds businesses. You think Cell-phone makers have the most "pull" in this area? It invloves way more than that. I naddittion, what about the software, the servers, the configurations. We aren;t talkign about "flipping a switch here.

The benefits are there, but you ahve to approach the topic from at least a marginally "business" perspective. Still, like I said, Businesses are the equivalent of city-dwelling hippopotamauses. They are slow to change and the best thing to do is just leave them alone.


I know you mean well, but honestly, if IPv6 will not pay for itself quickly and costs a lot, they don't give a damn about seriously implementing it in the near future.
 
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