Will any electric vehicle have the long lasting enthusiast appeal many ICE vehicles of the past have today?

[AdamK47]

I liken the craze of the electric vehicle to that of a smart watch. Many desire them over a traditional watch. They want the best and will pay for it. The problem is that it will be replaced in 2 to 3 years with the next new shiny. 5 years at most. The expensive luxury watches of the past, mechanical with no digital screen for superfluous features, retain and gain value over years and decades. Some have the smart watch for daily use and a luxury mechanical for a nice night out. Similar to my situation with cars.

I have an electric vehicle and an ICE vehicle. 2019 e-tron and 2022 R8. I have no emotional connection to the e-tron like I do with the R8. It gets me from point A to point B in comfort without the need of gas. I have about the same connection to it as I do with my refrigerator or coffee machine. It's an appliance I plug into the wall. It will eventually be replaced by another electric vehicle to carry on daily driver activities. May go to another owner for a bit. Landfills after that when the cost of battery replacement exceeds the value of the vehicle.

The R8 I do have a connection to. It may very well be my end game ICE car I keep until I die. The sound, aesthetics, handing, and uniqueness provide feedback that's near impossible not to fall in love with. Given regular maintenance, the complex mechanical engine will last for several decades. Values have been holding steady while electric vehicle prices have plummeted (thanks Tesla). While I could have gotten $180K+ for my R8 middle of last year during the car buying craze, the value has only dropped maybe 5% to 8% since then. Still over MSRP of a similar '23 R8. The reason of course is demand. Supercar values across the board are holding or increasing in value. People want one now before a flurry of emotionless samey electric vehicles take over. Vehicles that will be replaced by those that want the next mainstream thing their neighbor next door is getting.

 

[OlyAR15]

Those are two very different types of vehicles, which has nothing to do with electric or gas. I have a '17 NSX and a '17 civic. One is hybrid and the other pure ICE. Guess what, my Civic is just a transportation appliance (even though it has a manual and my NSX is auto) and I have no emotional attachment to it. On the other hand, I love my NSX. It is my forever car, despite being a hybrid. In the future, I plan on replacing my Civic with an EV.

 

[NutBucket]

Short answer: no

Daddy Doug made an excellent point during his recent review of the Ariya. He was generalizing a bit but said EV's tend to all drive the same. That is to say, power delivery is pretty much the same. I'm no expert but it seems like Porsche is the only company paying any attention to the actual driving experience of the Taycan. Everyone else is just touting 0-60 and self driving BS.

I figure there are two things EVs can't match: driving experience and style

No two ICE cars drive the same. Every drivetrain is different. High revving, low end torque, rowing gears, different noises, etc.

A tri-five Chevy will likely never lose it's appeal. Neither will a C2 Vette, lead-sled Merc, '69 Charger, Ferrari 250 GTO, you get the idea. The styling and emotion they evoke will never be duplicated.

 

[sandorski]

As long as there is a large Consumer market, in time some will stand out. Right now everyone is mostly focused on something that works.

 

[repoman0]

Nobody cares about the first gen Tesla roadster or BMW i8 despite “interesting” styling and some amount of focus on the driving experience. And the racing in Formula E is just as good as Formula 1 but similarly nobody cares about it.

 

[NutBucket]

Isn't Formula E time based instead of laps? Anyway, the lack of interest in Formula E proves my point there is no "connection" to the drivetrain. The shriek of the engines, different manufacturers, etc are a big part of what attracts people. Maybe it's a learned thing that will be different in 100 years.

Imagine electric dragsters. For now they aren't nearly as fast a Top Fuelers or Funny Cars but I'm sure that will change in time. But the experience is so different it's hard to see the appeal will remain the same.

 

[Meghan54]

Isn't Formula E time based instead of laps? Anyway, the lack of interest in Formula E proves my point there is no "connection" to the drivetrain. The shriek of the engines, different manufacturers, etc are a big part of what attracts people. Maybe it's a learned thing that will be different in 100 years.

Imagine electric dragsters. For now they aren't nearly as fast a Top Fuelers or Funny Cars but I'm sure that will change in time. But the experience is so different it's hard to see the appeal will remain the same.

This year at least, it’s fixed number of laps. Hyderabad, India was 32 laps, Cape Town was 30 laps.

I do believe it used to be 45 min plus a lap.

 

[Commodus]

I'm sure there will be. It's just a question of when and who makes it.

Remember, the EV market is still very young. The tech is evolving rapidly, and right now the focus is on expanding access than building an iconic car. Hence why so many EVs are crossovers and SUVs, and prices have been gradually coming down. It'll be a while before the market is sufficiently well-established that companies have to try harder to stand out.

Think about the early combustion engine days. How many cars from the first few decades are memorable? Benz' original car, the Model T, maybe a few others... and they were best-known for achieving firsts, not for exciting drives. I'm not saying you'll have to wait another 20 years to drive an EV you'll absolutely love, but patience is a virtue here.

 

[AdamK47]

I'm sure there will be. It's just a question of when and who makes it.

Remember, the EV market is still very young. The tech is evolving rapidly, and right now the focus is on expanding access than building an iconic car. Hence why so many EVs are crossovers and SUVs, and prices have been gradually coming down. It'll be a while before the market is sufficiently well-established that companies have to try harder to stand out.

Think about the early combustion engine days. How many cars from the first few decades are memorable? Benz' original car, the Model T, maybe a few others... and they were best-known for achieving firsts, not for exciting drives. I'm not saying you'll have to wait another 20 years to drive an EV you'll absolutely love, but patience is a virtue here.

There are plenty of high-end vehicles of the era that now sit in car collections. Highly desirable to those collectors. Most cars produced at the time were out of reach of the regular person. Ford changed that with the Model T and the rest followed. It's significance in that regard is what makes it memorable.

1900s Cars – Supercars.net
1910s Cars – Supercars.net

 

[Commodus]

There are plenty of high-end vehicles of the era that now sit in car collections. Highly desirable to those collectors. Most cars produced at the time were out of reach of the regular person. Ford changed that with the Model T and the rest followed. It's significance in that regard is what makes it memorable.

1900s Cars – Supercars.net
1910s Cars – Supercars.net

Yeah, but how many of them are prized for being thrilling cars? An early Silver Ghost is wonderful to own, but it's not the car you're going to drive for a thrilling country jaunt — it's the one you take to a collectors' show in the back of a trailer.

To me, "long-lasting enthusiast appeal" means a car model that's actively driven by fans for decades. Like a Ford Mustang, Porsche 911 or BMW 2002. They either go out of their way to get the original or buy the latest model knowing that it maintains the legacy.

 

[NutBucket]

Drive any of them fast and you may soil yourself. That's pretty thrilling

 

[Red Squirrel]

The sad reality is I think EVs are going to be disposable like phones and specific models quickly forgotten about for that reason. Their life span just won't be there. Especially because most of them are so tied to phone apps and the cloud. Phones are designed with planned obsolescence, so by having your car tied to a phone, the car itself is going to be a paperweight the minute the apps stop working on the latest OS. I was watching a video on the F150, and you actually need an app just to be able to charge it! It seems most of them are like that too at least for public networks, but the F150 needs the app even to charge at home. So what happens in 20 years when they don't support that app anymore and it's not on the play store, or they take down the servers for it? Yeah. Your near $100,000 car is now a ship anchor all because of software.

If you find a multi decade old gas car in a field, you can probably get it started with some mechanical know how and effort. With an EV? Not so much, all because of software planned obsolescence, and there's a decent chance the battery will be finished too. But even if the battery itself is still good, the electronics won't work because you won't be able to get the apps, or cloud connectivity or any of that jaz to work.

I imagine there will be a certain enthusiast community that take these old cars, strip out all the electronics, and make them work stand alone though. But I think this is going to be niche.

 

[BoomerD]

I'm not really into the electrical vehicles, like the idea...IF they ever get the range up to 500+ miles between charges. (that's about a day's driving for me)

Are they "customizable" the way ICE vehicles are? I don't just mean interior customizations...or even exterior things like wheels or bolt-on spoilers, or paint jobs, but when I built hot-rods in the late 60s and 70s, it was about engine swaps and modifications, transmissions, differentials and axles, suspension tweaks...plus all the stuff I already mentioned. Can you do that kind of stuff to electrics?

 

[Torn Mind]

The sad reality is I think EVs are going to be disposable like phones and specific models quickly forgotten about for that reason. Their life span just won't be there. Especially because most of them are so tied to phone apps and the cloud. Phones are designed with planned obsolescence, so by having your car tied to a phone, the car itself is going to be a paperweight the minute the apps stop working on the latest OS. I was watching a video on the F150, and you actually need an app just to be able to charge it! It seems most of them are like that too at least for public networks, but the F150 needs the app even to charge at home. So what happens in 20 years when they don't support that app anymore and it's not on the play store, or they take down the servers for it? Yeah. Your near $100,000 car is now a ship anchor all because of software.

If you find a multi decade old gas car in a field, you can probably get it started with some mechanical know how and effort. With an EV? Not so much, all because of software planned obsolescence, and there's a decent chance the battery will be finished too. But even if the battery itself is still good, the electronics won't work because you won't be able to get the apps, or cloud connectivity or any of that jaz to work.

I imagine there will be a certain enthusiast community that take these old cars, strip out all the electronics, and make them work stand alone though. But I think this is going to be niche.

Technically, all cars are due for a decision to keep or dispose around 120k with the first major wave of repairs. The suspension and struts are worn, the radiator might have failed.

 

[Commodus]

I'm not really into the electrical vehicles, like the idea...IF they ever get the range up to 500+ miles between charges. (that's about a day's driving for me)

Are they "customizable" the way ICE vehicles are? I don't just mean interior customizations...or even exterior things like wheels or bolt-on spoilers, or paint jobs, but when I built hot-rods in the late 60s and 70s, it was about engine swaps and modifications, transmissions, differentials and axles, suspension tweaks...plus all the stuff I already mentioned. Can you do that kind of stuff to electrics?

Manufacturers are getting closer to that range. The Lucid Air, Tesla Model S and Mercedes EQS are all long-ranged, with over 400 miles a realistic figure. The challenge is getting that kind of range into something other than a luxury sedan. The technology is improving, though, and I think it's more a matter of when than if 500 miles is readily achievable.

You can adjust non-powerplant things like suspension, but EVs have fewer components you can modify due to the nature of the tech. There's no transmission to change, for example. I do know that companies like Ford sell crate motor kits to people wanting to convert cars to EVs.

The question, I say, is whether or not powerplant modding would do much. The Lucid Air Sapphire and Tesla Model S Plaid both do 0-60MPH under two seconds, and even many ordinary EVs are surprisingly quick off the line; an AWD Hyundai Ioniq 5 can do the 60MPH sprint in 4.5 seconds. I have to admit, I love the thought that someone could smoke some conventional sports cars in the EV they use to take the kids to school.

 

[mikeymikec]

I'm sure there will be. It's just a question of when and who makes it.

Remember, the EV market is still very young. The tech is evolving rapidly, and right now the focus is on expanding access than building an iconic car. Hence why so many EVs are crossovers and SUVs, and prices have been gradually coming down. It'll be a while before the market is sufficiently well-established that companies have to try harder to stand out.

Think about the early combustion engine days. How many cars from the first few decades are memorable? Benz' original car, the Model T, maybe a few others... and they were best-known for achieving firsts, not for exciting drives. I'm not saying you'll have to wait another 20 years to drive an EV you'll absolutely love, but patience is a virtue here.

And one day Internet posts will be made wondering why anyone thought ICE vehicles were ever cool.

 

[repoman0]

I don't think anyone questions that EVs are fast in a straight line .. it's just that car enthusiasts don't really care. A certain slow and floppy 120hp Japanese roadster has an enthusiast following that dwarfs any EV. It takes two gear shifts to even get to 60 and takes minimum 8 seconds, and it's more fun to drive than any electric car made. Really popular with Gen Z as well, so it's not just old get off my lawn people.

Engine modding is not necessarily about power, it's about sound, feel, power delivery and putting in work to extract more from a machine. That is still fun even when EVs have the capability to propel their untrained drivers into a tree in two seconds.

 

[Commodus]

And one day Internet posts will be made wondering why anyone thought ICE vehicles were ever cool.

That's the thing! A lot of the "I'll never drive an EV" resistance comes from familiarity and inertia. We've had ICE cars for well over a century, and even the modern tuning world has been around for decades. We're only just getting into truly sporty EVs, including uprated versions of existing designs (like the Kia EV6 GT).

Declaring that no EV is as fun to drive as an ICE car seems short-sighted. EVs will become more powerful, lighter and characterful. Besides, we won't have much choice by 2035 — all new cars are likely to be EVs by then, and you don't want to be That Person driving a rusty 20-year-old car just because you like the engine sounds and feel.

 

[repoman0]

Declaring that no EV is as fun to drive as an ICE car seems short-sighted. EVs will become more powerful, lighter and characterful.

Afraid not. Batteries are heavy and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. More powerful is not a good thing for driving enjoyment. Fast cars have been too fast for public roads for over two decades.

Besides, we won't have much choice by 2035 — all new cars are likely to be EVs by then, and you don't want to be That Person driving a rusty 20-year-old car just because you like the engine sounds and feel.

Why is that? My newest car is pushing 20 years old today (and it certainly isn’t rusty), oldest is close to 30 and introduced to market the year I was born. I like my old cars and feel no need to keep up with my neighbors.

I think that the vast majority of appliance ICE cars should be replaced with appliance EVs as they naturally age out of service. My wife and I share a practical daily Mazda CX-5 and it will likely be replaced with an EV next. My fun ICE cars will continue to get the garage spots though, and I expect I’ll have them well past 2035.

 

[echo4747]

a little off topic but:
what is the expected lifespan of the drive motors in an ev ? Is it supposed to be similar to a gasoline engine? or diesel engine?

 

[Commodus]

Afraid not. Batteries are heavy and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. More powerful is not a good thing for driving enjoyment. Fast cars have been too fast for public roads for over two decades.

They will. The industry is moving toward solid-state batteries that are much denser than current designs, which means reduced weight for similar range. And yes, you can't really make the most of many performance cars on public roads, but many people can appreciate good acceleration... if just to overtake others on the highway.

Why is that? My newest car is pushing 20 years old today (and it certainly isn’t rusty), oldest is close to 30 and introduced to market the year I was born. I like my old cars and feel no need to keep up with my neighbors.

I think that the vast majority of appliance ICE cars should be replaced with appliance EVs as they naturally age out of service. My wife and I share a practical daily Mazda CX-5 and it will likely be replaced with an EV next. My fun ICE cars will continue to get the garage spots though, and I expect I’ll have them well past 2035.

Key states (and numerous countries) are banning sales of new combustion passenger cars in 2035, and the market will have leaned heavily toward EVs by then. You'll have also seen a more conspicuous infrastructure transition with many more charging stations, and maybe even a decline in gas stations. You'll probably see repair shops shift toward EV repair as well.

It's easy to say you'll hold on to your fun ICE cars for decades when you're comparing them to today's early EV tech and an infrastructure that still provides ample support for gas engines. It's another thing when it's 2040 and you'll not only see much stronger EVs, but weakening gas infrastructure. Will you like driving a vintage car when you have to drive a long distance to refuel or service it, and when you have to carefully plan routes like some EV drivers do today?

 

[repoman0]

Will you like driving a vintage car when you have to drive a long distance to refuel or service it, and when you have to carefully plan routes like some EV drivers do today?

I've thought about that too. We will see what happens, but I have serious doubts that gasoline infrastructure will be phased out that quickly. The average age of cars on the road is over a decade and increasing today .. it's easy to be a six-figure ATOT posting person and claim that EVs will take over by 2035 or 2040, but most people are still driving cars from the 2000s as cost for all new and lightly used vehicles increases. Gas stations that accommodate new customers by adding chargers certainly aren't going to remove all of their pumps when even 10-20% of cars on the road are ICE. That's 10-20% of customers who definitely will not stop into the store and buy something that actually generates a profit.

Not to mention we are already seeing cost for lithium increase and demand outstrip supply, and vehicle manufacturers are stupidly producing crossovers and huge SUVs to cater to dumb American consumers who want the biggest heaviest vehicle that needs twice the battery capacity of a normal car with equivalent range ... so we will see come 2035 whether car manufacturers will be able to sell even close to the number of vehicles they can today once ICE sales are illegal.

But yeah, my ICE vehicles are for fun, so I'd be willing to have a bi-weekly or monthly fun drive on back roads to a gas station 50 miles away if that was the case. I work from home and walk or bike around town rather than create traffic and noise pollution in a car, really don't put too many miles on the cars.

 

[NutBucket]

As I understand it even the ban in CA is for "pure" ICE vehicles...and doesn't include trucks over a certain GVWR. So that means there will still be plenty of normal hybrids to purchase, etc.

Like others say, gasoline isn't going away anytime soon. And in most cases the average gas station literally doesn't have the space to add EV chargers due to (ridiculous) rules requiring massive parking spaces, etc. Your government in action.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I've thought about that too. We will see what happens, but I have serious doubts that gasoline infrastructure will be phased out that quickly. The average age of cars on the road is over a decade and increasing today .. it's easy to be a six-figure ATOT posting person and claim that EVs will take over by 2035 or 2040, but most people are still driving cars from the 2000s as cost for all new and lightly used vehicles increases. Gas stations that accommodate new customers by adding chargers certainly aren't going to remove all of their pumps when even 10-20% of cars on the road are ICE. That's 10-20% of customers who definitely will not stop into the store and buy something that actually generates a profit.

Not to mention we are already seeing cost for lithium increase and demand outstrip supply, and vehicle manufacturers are stupidly producing crossovers and huge SUVs to cater to dumb American consumers who want the biggest heaviest vehicle that needs twice the battery capacity of a normal car with equivalent range ... so we will see come 2035 whether car manufacturers will be able to sell even close to the number of vehicles they can today once ICE sales are illegal.

But yeah, my ICE vehicles are for fun, so I'd be willing to have a bi-weekly or monthly fun drive on back roads to a gas station 50 miles away if that was the case. I work from home and walk or bike around town rather than create traffic and noise pollution in a car, really don't put too many miles on the cars.

It's all a matter of "when" . . . When would your vehicle purchase decisions be optimal: keeping the old ICE versus swinging to a charge-able hybrid or pure EV?

In my own case, I could be dead before I get to that decision-point, unless my annual mileage dramatically increases. I could say that "I WANT a Ford Mach-E", for instance. But when does it become -- in the pure sense -- an optimal capital-budgeting decision for the remainder of my sunset years?

For now, I'm going out for a drive. If I can't justify it for an errand, I can top up the tank with a 5-gallon purchase at $5.50/gal. I say -- I'm going out for a drive, right now . . .

PS. Notice that "optimal capital budgeting" choice doesn't address your share of the collective climate costs. But what makes more sense, at the moment, if your ICE is a stand-up ride and you only drive 3,000 miles per year?

 

[Ken g6]

As I understand it even the ban in CA is for "pure" ICE vehicles...and doesn't include trucks over a certain GVWR.

As I understand it, the only (edit: new) fossil fueled cars allowed will be plug-in hybrids that get at least 50 miles EV range.

As for the trucks, it looks like CA is phasing them to EVs by 2045.