Will Bobcat be the home run AMD is looking for?

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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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I noticed Atom D510's GMA 3150 GPU runs faster (400 Mhz vs 200 Mhz) than the Netbook Atoms 3150 GPU.

Funny thing is the 400MHz GMA 3150 that's in the D510 scores only 10% better than 200MHz derivatives on the Netbook chips, so what is the extra 200MHz really doing?

When I punched some numbers in from various reports I figure the idle battery life of Brazos platform will be around Atom Diamondville platform level for the 9W parts. Better than CULV by around 10%. Pineview will do 15%+ or so on top of that, but going from 8 hours to 10 hours battery life might please just as many people who can get better graphics.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
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Funny thing is the 400MHz GMA 3150 that's in the D510 scores only 10% better than 200MHz derivatives on the Netbook chips, so what is the extra 200MHz really doing?

When I punched some numbers in from various reports I figure the idle battery life of Brazos platform will be around Atom Diamondville platform level for the 9W parts. Better than CULV by around 10%. Pineview will do 15%+ or so on top of that, but going from 8 hours to 10 hours battery life might please just as many people who can get better graphics.

You are likely right. Although I think people are really underestimating the number of people who would appreciate both the extra graphical power or the extra batery life. I would put the percentage rather high for both, even upward of 50%; maybe more.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
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for this to be a real home run we'll need a lot more parallelism in software and a lot of the heavy lifting offloaded to GPUs. it's not bad at all and probably a good choice in the netbook/developing world market but i don't think i'd replace any of my current PCs with one, unless i decided to cut another 30 watts out.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,753
1,311
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You are likely right. Although I think people are really underestimating the number of people who would appreciate both the extra graphical power or the extra batery life. I would put the percentage rather high for both, even upward of 50%; maybe more.
Why? Extra battery life, yes. Extra GPU power over CULV and above, not so much. Extra GPU power over Atom yes though.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
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Not that extra battery life or a GPU is a bad thing. But the benefits with Pineview(you know, with battery life) is more saturated and niche than GPU with Bobcat just because the predecessors of the former chip was already very good at it.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Why? Extra battery life, yes. Extra GPU power over CULV and above, not so much. Extra GPU power over Atom yes though.

I agree. With Ontario we are looking at "good enough" graphics power.

Lots of people could use that for resolutions greater than the 1024x 600/1366 x 768 normally found on Windows 7 Starter Netbooks.

With that being said, I believe Ontario will do well on the MS Platform, but I just wonder if the potential exists for Brazos do even better elsewhere (Apple, Google, Meego, Linux, etc)

Take for example Chrome OS, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of needing a connection to the internet in order to operate the computer. But Is that Google's ultimate plan for the OS? They have already provided an offline Media Player for the operating system. What makes us believe they will stop there?
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
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Granted, the comparison to the D525+ion on the temperature picture is kinda weird given the difference in heatsink, but it still hows 101F max for the E-350 and 117F max for the atom. But then if you take a look at the article, they actually recognized that difference and went ahead with taking the heatsinks off both and running bare die for a short amount of time, at which point the E-350 max was just shy of 180F, while the D525 was just shy of 155F... The debate being whether the red line on the E-350 is the memory controller side of the chip or the CPU side of it.

(snip)

Also interesting is their speculation that the GPU portion might have been running at full speed all the time, which would bring that number down a fair bit.

I'm glad AMD provided this sneak peak at Brazos, but I agree some of these variables do seem difficult to separate out. (Thank you for contributing your time and knowledge to point this out).
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Comments and opinions regarding the following power management scheme (implemented on Brazos).

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-fusion-brazos-zacate,2786-3.html

Tom's hardware said:
For netbooks, AMD's configuration combines a SB750 southbridge with a Ontario. Since the wireless device is directly hooked up to the APU's single PCIe link, there are improvements in power management, as the southbridge can go into an idle state without sacrificing connectivity.

For notebooks, the plan is to pair a SB750 southbridge with an Ontario or Zacate, with the additional use of a four-lane PCIe connection to a discrete GPU. However, this sacrifices some power management savings by hooking the wireless device to the southbridge. AMD's logic is that in a netbook, users would be less likely to need a discrete graphic solution. By moving wireless connectivity up to the APU, the southbridge only needs to deal with I/O devices like the keyboard, touchpad, USB devices, and flash media. Given that mobile users are less likely to use USB devices and flash media while on the road, the SB750 only has to transfer small bits of data from the keyboard and touchpad, which translates into higher power savings.

Everyone can benefit from power savings, and in a world where we leave our wireless connection active, the ideal situation would be to always have the wireless device hooked directly into the APU. However, this is not possible if you are using a discrete graphic solution in a x4 configuration. Remember, there are five PCIe controllers off the APU, and one is reserved for the UMI link. The other four are intended for peripherals. For discrete graphics, you can either use a single x1, x2, or x4. So in practice, it is possible to connect a discrete graphics chip with x2 and still simultaneously have two x1 connections available. Meanwhile, all "Hudson-M1" southbridges come with a UMI connection to the APU (Ontario/Zacate) that is based on a single x4 PCIe connection; probably with some aspect of proprietary signal handling.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
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Why? Extra battery life, yes. Extra GPU power over CULV and above, not so much. Extra GPU power over Atom yes though.

Intel integrated graphics is such a huge limiting factor in what you can do on the computer, that most tasks are just not possible using it. Increasing the graphical capabilities would be huge, especially on the lowest end computers. It would allow you to actually use that low-end computer for more than just very specialized tasks like web browsing and spreadsheets.

Extra battery life helps you actually do the tasks you want without being tethered to a powercord. If you can actually go out somewhere and pull out your computer and do whatever you want without having to worry about it only lasting a few minutes, that would really help in making that computer something that you actually use on a regular basis, instead of something you only pull out when you absolutely need it (due to the annoyance of having such a limited time of actual use).
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
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Well, it's decided. Sold my Atom N450 netbook and think I'm going to buy one of the 1.2GHz single core Zacate netbooks when they're available (or possibly a faster dual core model, depending on cost and battery life). I was actually pretty happy with the Atom platform, but was having some issues with the netbook I had, so this was a good excuse to get rid of it and hopefully get something new in the next couple months. And the extra IGP performance of Zacate will be nice, especially being able to play back HD content.

So, question: Do we know when Bobcat netbooks are supposed to hit the market? I thought I've read Q1 2011, but is there anything more specific than that yet?
 

cotak13

Member
Nov 10, 2010
129
0
0
Well, it's decided. Sold my Atom N450 netbook and think I'm going to buy one of the 1.2GHz single core Zacate netbooks when they're available (or possibly a faster dual core model, depending on cost and battery life). I was actually pretty happy with the Atom platform, but was having some issues with the netbook I had, so this was a good excuse to get rid of it and hopefully get something new in the next couple months. And the extra IGP performance of Zacate will be nice, especially being able to play back HD content.

So, question: Do we know when Bobcat netbooks are supposed to hit the market? I thought I've read Q1 2011, but is there anything more specific than that yet?

http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/23/acer-debuts-10-1-inch-windows-7-tablet-amd-powered-inbuilt-3g/
 

Khato

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2001
1,225
281
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Comments and opinions regarding the following power management scheme (implemented on Brazos).

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-fusion-brazos-zacate,2786-3.html

It's certainly a good idea, and will save a bit of power... I'd guess somewhere around 100mW during activity, assuming that the SB750 and the UMI interconnect are as power conscious as they should be. After all, the SB750 is then essentially playing the part of a PCI express switch, so the only power expenditure is the data passing through 2 links instead of 1.

That said, if the SB750 can't go into an 'idle state' just because one of its PCI express ports is in use... well, that would be a pretty horrible design. I suspect that's not the actual meaning though - likely they just mean that the PCI express switch logic can't go into an idle state/be power gated entirely. And that's really not as bad as it sounds given the power conservation present in the PCI express spec itself. I do hope that they have adequate power gating/separate power wells for each interface block, since otherwise the excess of connectivity they have built in certainly would add up.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,753
1,311
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Cedar Trail: Q4 2011 Atom N series replacement, 32nm

Concillian, I gave that a thought and initially it did not make sense. But Fudzilla is now reporting Q4 2011 for the Cedar Trail platform. I don't know if the rumor is even true, but in the case it means Intel won't have Pine Trail replacement until end of next year. Better single thread performance on the Celeron 743 and HD capable GMA 4500 might be more competitive.
Hmmm... Q4 2011?

Anyways, I had read that Cedar Trail is rumoured to be only marginally faster than Pinetrail, because Intel may be aiming for lower power utilization. I wonder if there's any truth to that. If that's the case, then that's still a disappointment, unless they release a "Cedar Trail Extreme Dual-Core" that adds say a 25% boost to what we have now.

Something that's 25% faster than Atom D525 along with true 4500MHD-level GPU performance would be sufficient for me for a replacement of my current Atom/ION setup. However, I really don't want to wait a year. In fact, I was hoping for something like a cheap Core 2 Duo small form factor machine to show up for (Canadian) Black Friday deals but so far I haven't seen one. I'm a bit surprised since I managed to pick up a 1.3 GHz SU4100 netbook for cheap, so where are the cheap C2D SFF machines?
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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http://www.osnews.com/story/24034/AMD_Joins_MeeGo_Linux_Open_Source_Project/

MeeGo! Nokia's hope for the future is developing at a quick pace, and considering the rather lukewarm reception of Nokia's Symbian^3 devices, that quick pace is more than justified. MeeGo got a big boost today with AMD announcing support for the platform. The company puts its money where its mouth is, too.

AMD announced at the MeeGo conference that the chip maker will join The Linux Foundation's MeeGo project, pledging not just encouragement but also engineering expertise - which hopefully means developers and plain ol' cash.

"MeeGo represents an exciting, open-source mobile operating system we expect to be adopted by mobile and embedded device makers over time," said Ben Bar-Haim, AMD's corporate vice president of software development, "We are glad to provide engineering resources to joint industry efforts like MeeGo and expect that this operating system will help drive our embedded plans and create expanded market opportunities for our forthcoming Accelerated Processing Units."

Of course, this is not entirely altruistic, as Bar-Haim already hints at. AMD pretty much missed the netbook revolution, doesn't play a role in smartphones, and they're not playing much of a role in the tablet frenzy either. By expressing support for MeeGo and maybe even dedicating some actual resources to it, they are probably hoping to grease the wheels a bit in this department.

Altruism or no, The Linux Foundation is rightfully happy with AMD's support. "Built from the ground up for a whole new class of mobile computing devices, MeeGo gives companies like AMD and its partners unlimited opportunities to accelerate innovation for the next generation of computing," said Jim Zemlin, executive director at The Linux Foundation, "As an existing Linux Foundation member, AMD will be an important and valuable contributor to the MeeGo Project."

Hopefully, this will help MeeGo mature even faster. New platforms means more competition, and more competition is always good for us consumers.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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Hmmm... Q4 2011?

Anyways, I had read that Cedar Trail is rumoured to be only marginally faster than Pinetrail, because Intel may be aiming for lower power utilization. I wonder if there's any truth to that. If that's the case, then that's still a disappointment, unless they release a "Cedar Trail Extreme Dual-Core" that adds say a 25% boost to what we have now.

TDP is supposedly similar to current Pine Trail parts so performance improvement might be at least semi-decent. Most important thing is what they do with the Saltwell core.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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Well since you guys want to ignor Oak trail I won't let you. The heatsink problem with the gaming tablets has been resolved. I am betting Intels oak trails are in products befor zacata. I haven't seen any products based on zacata. Were as oaktrail which is in full production has many products being ready for the low buck market. $25 for Oaktrail chip and meego combo. Its a fierce market for low bucks. Intel should do well against ARM . Starting with oak trail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJpktDKIeGc
 

maniac5999

Senior member
Dec 30, 2009
498
2
81
Well since you guys want to ignor Oak trail I won't let you. The heatsink problem with the gaming tablets has been resolved. I am betting Intels oak trails are in products befor zacata. I haven't seen any products based on zacata. Were as oaktrail which is in full production has many products being ready for the low buck market. $25 for Oaktrail chip and meego combo. Its a fierce market for low bucks. Intel should do well against ARM . Starting with oak trail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJpktDKIeGc

Is the above post even in english? Sir, I would stridently advise that you invest in spellchecking software for your computer, as well as a dictionary, and a class in how to construct a sentence properly. I understand that english may not be the primary language of all the members here, but this post is just plain sloppy.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Is the above post even in english? Sir, I would stridently advise that you invest in spellchecking software for your computer, as well as a dictionary, and a class in how to construct a sentence properly. I understand that english may not be the primary language of all the members here, but this post is just plain sloppy.

It's been discussed before, it is strategic, ridicule it if you like but know that you are missing the point of why it is done and as such are wasting your time formulating and positing your unsolicited advices above.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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Oak Trail is in a different class of power/performance/form factor compared to Brazos I'm not sure if its correct comparing it directly.

Plus this thread is supposed to be about Bobcat?
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
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No this thread isn't about bobcat . Its about how successful will be . So in that spirit I have voiced my beliefs . So I choose to talk about were zacata is setting.

1). Oaktrail will finally allow intel into the tablet markets in a big way . The 8 watt zacata won't play here,
a). Intel is being very silent on the IGP performance of both oaktrail and SB.
Pretty sure we may see some nice decoding from oaktrail .
b) The reason FCC gave intel untill 2013 to produce these chips was because they were developed before durring and after the FCC investigation. Intel never planned these for PC use but Vendors are wanting them for netbooks , Thus the reason the FCC made its exception rule for Oak Trail.
c Plays blue ray and 1080P movies.
d) under 5watts power consumption . Its said to come in 2 flavors a higher wattage version also.
So ya it is fair to put them in the same market. Oaktrail can run windows 7 / meego/ I can't recall the other, chrome comes to mind.

So there ya have it . A reply in a topic about whether or not Zacata will be a home run . I simply said no and gave my reasons./
on the lowend tablets and other handhelds Oaktrail easy win . $25 for oaktrail meego combo. Thats a rough price to beat. Than there is the netbook markets that will Have Buyers who want hours of battery life. Than ya have the people who will buy the highend netbook that the dual core SB will dominate. Than you have AMDS little tiny space right between oak trail and SB. No I don't think Zacata is a home run. Fact is I was hoping for alot more .

AMD said it would have 90% of todays CPU performance . Again never believe AMD when it comes to cpus. Must be AMD hammer that AMD was referring to as they seem to be living 2005 all over again. LOL.
 

Soleron

Senior member
May 10, 2009
337
0
71
No this thread isn't about bobcat . Its about how successful will be . So in that spirit I have voiced my beliefs . So I choose to talk about were zacata is setting.

1). Oaktrail will finally allow intel into the tablet markets in a big way . The 8 watt zacata won't play here,

True, however how successful will non-Apple tablets be? They certainly never worked as a product class before now and are unproven. Even if they do, profit margins are so small that they'd need to sell millions of tablets for CPU profits there to approach netbook levels.

a). Intel is being very silent on the IGP performance of both oaktrail and SB.
Pretty sure we may see some nice decoding from oaktrail .

We know the performance of SB's GPU is similar to Ontario/Zacate. In case you missed the Anandtech review. I doubt Atom will include SB's graphics, it will probably be of an older level given the history of how fast new tech gets into Atom.


b) The reason FCC gave intel untill 2013 to produce these chips was because they were developed before durring and after the FCC investigation. Intel never planned these for PC use but Vendors are wanting them for netbooks , Thus the reason the FCC made its exception rule for Oak Trail.

Relevant how?

c Plays blue ray and 1080P movies.

And so does Ontario, and Tegra 2, and a whole range of ARM based SoCs that consume less power than Atom.

d) under 5watts power consumption . Its said to come in 2 flavors a higher wattage version also.

Needs to be sub-1W to compete with ARM solutions in tablets. It will be in a few high-end tablets but, if there even is a volume tablet market, a 5W solution won't be winning it. Neither will Ontario. I dom't believe tablets will determine the success of either product for that reason.

on the lowend tablets and other handhelds Oaktrail easy win . $25 for oaktrail meego combo. Thats a rough price to beat.

It will lose to ARM on SoC price if it's $25.

Than there is the netbook markets that will Have Buyers who want hours of battery life. Than ya have the people who will buy the highend netbook that the dual core SB will dominate. Than you have AMDS little tiny space right between oak trail and SB. No I don't think Zacata is a home run. Fact is I was hoping for alot more .

I think Intel will price dual-core SB far too high (like they did with CULV, $200-300 list prices) to actually compete with Ontario/Zacate. Also, that tiny little space is basically what Atom has been profiting off for years now. Ontario systems will likely be out before ULV SB systems too, since AMD have been shipping for a few weeks.

AMD said it would have 90% of todays CPU performance . Again never believe AMD when it comes to cpus. Must be AMD hammer that AMD was referring to as they seem to be living 2005 all over again. LOL.

Go and look at Anandtech's benches. Zacate does indeed have about 90% of its mobile Phenom and Athlon dual-core's performance.

They have also sacrificed performance for portability. There was a statement that Bobcat would be 10% faster if it wasn't synthesisable. The upside is that AMD will get to 28nm in 2012, while Oak Trail will still be 32nm. When Bobcat products are twice as fast or consume half the power due to that full shrink I think that's a huge win against Oak Trail.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
I know its really Nemesis that spread the false info but...

Oak Trail=45nm
Oak Trail=45nm
Oak Trail=45nm
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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Well I did say it was 32nm. But I wasn't spreader. I linked to articles said the same thing . Give me a moment I get ya one.


Solerun You said this.

We know the performance of SB's GPU is similar to Ontario/Zacate. In case you missed the Anandtech review. I doubt Atom will include SB's graphics, it will probably be of an older level given the history of how fast new tech gets into Atom.

Not true you think you know . But what we do know based on AT . Is that SBIGP is alot stronger than zacata.
Now to get Link for 32nm OAKTRAIL
 
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