Will Bobcat be the home run AMD is looking for?

[IntelUser2000]

I'm not sure why you keep insisting Oak Trail is 32nm.

http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl...=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1259&bih=818

The CPU/GPU/IMC core is clearly named as "Lincroft" which is the same thing used in Moorestown and is 45nm. And no, they don't keep the code names same between different process generations.

When Bobcat products are twice as fast or consume half the power due to that full shrink

Every new process generation Intel claims >20% increase in performance(frequency) and >30% decrease in power. That's not 1/2 or 2x.

Here's what AMD says and is very similar: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/401/443/html/4.jpg.html

Static Power(leakage) decreased by 32% and Dynamic Power(important for determining TDP) decreased by 16% going from 45nm to 32nm Hi-K.

Needs to be sub-1W to compete with ARM solutions in tablets.

Doesn't seem to be that far according to these two datasheets: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/omap3503.pdf
http://download.intel.com/design/processor/datashts/319535.pdf

Cortex A8 600MHz:
639-808mA MPU Vdd(variation is depending on power management)

@ 0.985-1.2V

Atom Z500:
0.6-0.8A depending on frequency @ 0.75-0.85V

 

[cbn]

Well since you guys want to ignor Oak trail I won't let you. The heatsink problem with the gaming tablets has been resolved. I am betting Intels oak trails are in products befor zacata. I haven't seen any products based on zacata. Were as oaktrail which is in full production has many products being ready for the low buck market. $25 for Oaktrail chip and meego combo. Its a fierce market for low bucks. Intel should do well against ARM . Starting with oak trail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJpktDKIeGc

I really like the Dell convertible Tablet/Laptop shown in that video.

P.S. Can someone explain the reason Intel is combining Oaktrail rather than Moorestown with Meego Linux?

According to this Anandtech article Oaktrail is Moorestown + PCI bus, SATA, HD audio, HDMI and legacy I/O (HPET, GPIO. RTC, DMA).

EDIT: According to the Anandtech Moorestown article Langwell (Moorestown's PCH) does support HDMI and SSD.

 

[cbn]

1). Oaktrail will finally allow intel into the tablet markets in a big way .
a). Intel is being very silent on the IGP performance of both oaktrail and SB.
Pretty sure we may see some nice decoding from oaktrail .
b) The reason FCC gave intel untill 2013 to produce these chips was because they were developed before durring and after the FCC investigation. Intel never planned these for PC use but Vendors are wanting them for netbooks , Thus the reason the FCC made its exception rule for Oak Trail.
c Plays blue ray and 1080P movies.
d) under 5watts power consumption . Its said to come in 2 flavors a higher wattage version also.

It will be really interesting to see the impact lower power processors have on the Meego ecosystem.

I have also wondering how much better Oaktrail's Imagination Technologies Power VR SGX 535 will run on Linux compared to Windows 7. (IIRC, Intel is using third part drivers for Power VR SGX on Windows 7 and because of this Oaktrail's GPU is to some degree less efficient on that platform).

P.S. What kind of opinions do people have on Oaktrail's Power VR SGX 535 (on Linux) vs Pineview's GMA 3150 on Windows 7? How much of a difference in performance can we roughly expect?

 

[cbn]

Every new process generation Intel claims >20% increase in performance(frequency) and >30% decrease in power. That's not 1/2 or 2x.

Here's what AMD says and is very similar: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/401/443/html/4.jpg.html

Static Power(leakage) decreased by 32% and Dynamic Power(important for determining TDP) decreased by 16% going from 45nm to 32nm Hi-K.

How much does the information found in this slide (originally posted by grimpr) change the situation?

P.S. I know this is not really 2x speedup, but I remember seeing slides detailing 28nm Krishna and Wichita coming in dual and quad core (compared to the single and dual core variants of Ontario and Zacate).

 

[IntelUser2000]

P.S. Can someone explain to me why Intel is running Oaktrail rather than Moorestown on Meego Linux?

I guess they wanted to run SATA devices using MeeGo?

How much does the information found in this slide (originally posted by grimpr) change the situation?

Well the CPU core is such a small portion compared to the whole die for Ontario/Zacate so doubling cores might not be a problem.

 

[Nemesis 1]

It will be really interesting to see the impact lower power processors have on the Meego ecosystem.

I have also wondering how much better Oaktrail's Imagination Technologies Power VR SGX 535 will run on Linux compared to Windows 7. (IIRC, Intel is using third part drivers for Power VR SGX on Windows 7 and because of this Oaktrail's GPU is to some degree less efficient on that platform).

P.S. What kind of opinions do people have on Oaktrail's Power VR SGX 535 (on Linux) vs Pineview's GMA 3150 on Windows 7? How much of a difference in performance can we roughly expect?

To be 100% honest I am as clueless on OAK trail as anyone else. But. I look at SB IGP and I know Intel did IGP on Oaktrail after SB was completed. Both are Imaginations tech . Intel seems to be doing rather well with its version . AS for performance increase Intel says That increased but not how much . They did say a 50% reduction in power usage that puts it under 5 watts. Other Than that I just guessing but giving intel and its engineers the benefit of being successful.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I really like the Dell convertible Tablet/Laptop shown in that video.

P.S. Can someone explain the reason Intel is combining Oaktrail rather than Moorestown with Meego Linux?

According to this Anandtech article Oaktrail is Moorestown + PCI bus, SATA, HD audio, HDMI and legacy I/O (HPET, GPIO. RTC, DMA).

EDIT: According to the Anandtech Moorestown article Langwell (Moorestown's PCH) does support HDMI and SSD.

Ya that dell even caught my attention . I really don't like these low power devices but that 1 I did like. I don't believe that was OAK trail in that device

 

[Nemesis 1]

To be fair, pretty sure they said 90% of K8, and they seem to have met that goal.

Well I heard that same line at XS. But no one could show a link were AMD was referring to a 2006 products

 

[cbn]

I guess they wanted to run SATA devices using MeeGo?

Thank you. Correct me if I am wrong but so far it looks like Intel is aiming at two different areas with Moorestown vs Oaktrail on Linux:

1. Linux with Oaktrail for the lower cost set-ups using hard disks

2. Linux with Moorestown for set-ups using NAND Flash and optimized for lowest power (due to lack of PCI bus on Moorestown).

P.S. With regard to frugal customers (striving to reduce the number of computers they own): It would have been nice to see Moorestown equipped with USB3. Low levels of Flash memory + SD card (for lower cost) would probably be just fine for mobile.....while the USB3 would have allowed fast access to an external hard drive for home usage.

Ya that dell even caught my attention . I really don't like these low power devices but that 1 I did like. I don't believe that was OAK trail in that device

Yep, It was running Atom N550 and Windows 7 Premium. More details here.

With respect to low power devices, I just wonder how well processors like Bobcat and Atom will run on Meego? Will they seem faster due to the lightweight OS or will early software issues slow things down?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Funny how the Oaktrail needs Special permission from FTC case to build oak trail because it lacks a PCI-E bus. So intel has until 2013 to gett this chip shrunk to 22nm and put millions on the self for future delivery. Are you sure morristown can run windows 7. I a little confused over the PCI/PCI-E thing. As for Intels SB IGP . I just posted an article by 501 a romanian gent. Who showed off the power of broken SB 6EU part like AT had and like I had.

As for Oaktrail being 32nm . I only know what I have read but details are far and few between. I hope it is 45nm . That gives me something to smile about.

 

[cbn]

As for Oaktrail being 32nm . I only know what I have read but details are far and few between. I hope it is 45nm . That gives me something to smile about.

Currently Moorestown and Oaktrail stand at 45nm Low leakage with 65nm low leakage PCH.

More information on the 32nm Medfield Integration here. I haven't read anything yet about the 32nm Oaktrail successor. Will it still use the 65nm Whitney Point PCH?

 

[grimpr]

Rumour opera.

Microsoft chooses AMD Fusion II for XBox 720. (28nm,BD based)

http://www.kitguru.net/software/gaming/jules/microsoft-chooses-amd-fusion-ii-for-xbox-720/

 

[IntelUser2000]

I don't get it. Double the current Brazos graphics(because of process tech advance) is no advancement over the one in the Xbox 360. The article speculates MS using Krishna, which is a future Brazos part, but why?

Maybe a Llano successor makes sense, but they are making no mention of it.

I haven't read anything yet about the 32nm Oaktrail successor. Will it still use the 65nm Whitney Point PCH?

It makes sense to not use it because its likely based off the SoC on Medfield.

 

[cbn]

http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/linux/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=228400218

AMD Unwraps Linux Driver For Ontario Chip

Linux distributions beginning next year will include support for the low-power Fusion processor.

By Alison Diana , InformationWeek
November 30, 2010 12:38 PM

AMD last week unveiled a Linux driver for the Ontario chip, the manufacturer's low-powered Fusion processor for netbooks and other products.

Although it is available today, the driver is slated to appear in new Linux distributions beginning with version 2.6.38. That means users most likely won't see the driver accompany distributions such as Ubuntu until 2011, according to reports.

Since it is open source, users can view and edit the driver's code. The move marks AMD's latest pro-open source step: Earlier this year, the company joined the Linux Foundation's MeeGo Project, which supports a Linux-based open source mobile operating system. AMD and competitor Intel also are supporters of the Linux Foundation's License Compliance Program.

AMD's Ontario chip is the processor manufacturer's first Fusion API slated for release. Designed for use in netbooks and other similar devices, the dual-core chip features integrated Radeon HD 6250 graphics and 3D support. The chip is based on the low-power Bobcat CPU core and requires only 9 watts of power, according to reports.

Fusion chips -- or accelerated processing units (APUs) -- meld together parallel graphics processing cores and high-performance serial computing onto one die, a move designed to enhance both visual and data-heavy tasks. AMD's open source support mirrors its existing support for Radeon HD Evergreen, such as its kernel mode-setting, 2D EXA, X-Video, user-space mode-setting, and 3D/OpenGL support, according to the Phoronix website.

"The graphics portion of Ontario is very similar to the entry-level Evergreen GPU, at least for the portions used by the open drivers," AMD's John Bridgman told Phoronix. "There are a few enhancements, but we haven't looked at those yet."

 

[StrangerGuy]

I don't get it. Double the current Brazos graphics(because of process tech advance) is no advancement over the one in the Xbox 360. The article speculates MS using Krishna, which is a future Brazos part, but why?

Maybe a Llano successor makes sense, but they are making no mention of it.



It makes sense to not use it because its likely based off the SoC on Medfield.

My bet is MS wants to make a profit on their next-gen hardware right from the very start instead of playing another e-penis contest with the PS3 5 years ago.

 

[cbn]

Xbit Labs: Gigabyte to Offer Overclocking Functionality for Fusion Zacate Platform

Gigabyte Technology will offer overclocking capabilities on its mainboard designed for small form-factor (SFF) systems with AMD Zacate dual-core accelerated processing unit (APU). In addition, the company will offer broad multimedia connectivity as well as ability to install a standalone graphics card onto the low-power platform.

As reported previously, Advanced Micro Devices hopes to gain nettop market positions next year when its partners ship micro-ITX mainboards based on Zacate processors for low-power desktop personal computers. About half a dozen of motherboard makers are working on mini-ITX mainboards featuring AMD’s code-named Zacate processors and supporting chipsets. Such motherboards will enable system makers to produce very small systems featuring dual-core microprocessors and DirectX 11 graphics core. Probably, such platforms can also enable all-in-one systems with advanced feature-set.

Based on the picture of Gigabyte GA-E350V-USB3 mainboard, at least one motherboard in mini-ITX form-factor powered by dual-core AMD E350 microprocessor seems to be ready. Moreover, Gigabyte decided to equip the motheboard with rather advanced features, including ability to overclock memory from 1333MHz to 1800MHz and beyond as well as high-quality capacitors. Probably, the company will also provide some ways to overclock the APU itself in order to boost its performance. Typically, such functionality is not included onto mainboards for inexpensive systems as they are mostly aimed at system integrators.

The motherboard is equipped with USB 3.0 controller, multi-channel audio outputs, D-Sub, DVI-I ports and so on. The board can support up to four hard disk drives, the amount that will never fit into any mini-ITX computer cases as well as PCI Express x16 slot for add-on graphics cards, something not common inside low-power SFF systems.

The image of the Gigabyte GA-E350V-USB3 was sent to X-bit labs by an industrial source via e-mail late on Tuesday. Gigabyte Technology and AMD did not comment on the news-story.

AMD E350 APU features two low-power Bobcat cores operating at 1.60GHz, Radeon HD 6310 graphics engine with 80 stream processors and universal video decoder 3.0 engine operating at 500MHz. The chip has 18W thermal design power and comes in BGA form-factor.

AMD Brazos platform for desktops and mobile computers will consist of AMD Fusion accelerated processing unit (APU) code-named Ontario/Zacate as well as code-named Hudson D1 fusion controller hub, which will connect to processor using PCI Express 2.0 x4 bus and will support 4 PCIe x1 ports, PCI bus, 6 Serial ATA-300 ports, 14 USB 2.0 ports as well as integrated clock-generator. The part does not support RAID, Gigabit Ethernet and other capabilities, hence, Brazos platform will hardly be suitable for commercial desktops without additional chips.

 

[Eug]

AMD Fusion is off to a good start. Under $400 retail for a Lenovo machine. I hope the 11.6" screen is decent.

Lenovo ThinkPad X120e Steps Up Ultraportable, Ultra-affordable Laptop Performance for Businesses

RESEARCH TRIANGLE PARK, NC – January 3, 2011: Lenovo (HKSE: 992) (ADR: LNVGY) today announced its latest entry ultraportable, the ThinkPad X120e laptop, that raises the bar for affordable business-class performance. As the first commercial laptop to feature an AMD Fusion E-Series Accelerated Processing Unit (APU), the ThinkPad X120e blends real-world needs for faster applications and graphics processing with enhanced battery life and digital display features starting at less than $400.

“Multimedia elements like audio and video have become important parts of our world, and businesses are embracing this trend in digital content,” said Dilip Bhatia, vice president, ThinkPad Marketing and Product Operations, Lenovo. “We’ve optimized the ThinkPad X120e to not only give businesses an excellent experience creating and consuming multimedia content, but we’ve also made key improvements to an area that has plagued laptops: battery life.”

Professional Performance: The ultraportable ThinkPad X120e is small in stature by design, but it now packs an even more powerful punch for business productivity. Integrating an AMD Fusion E-Series APU gives users 65 percent faster graphics performance1, which speeds up Web searches, page loads and running business applications. At the same time, the ThinkPad X120e gives users longer battery life – up to 30 percent longer – for more than six hours2 and meets Energy Star 5.0 specifications. It also carries the EPEAT Gold rating for its environmental attributes. Additionally, the ThinkPad X120e comes with an HDMI port for projecting content on another monitor or a TV screen.

“Mobile users no longer have to trade battery life for great graphics performance,” said Chris Cloran, corporate vice president and general manager, Client Division AMP Products Group, AMD. “AMD Fusion APUs allow for thinner, cool-running devices that can last the day and do what’s demanded of today’s professional.”

Just-Right Fit: As compact as it is, the ThinkPad X120e is designed to fit just right for business users who need to balance portability and usability. An 11.6 inch screen and a full-size keyboard give users plenty of room to work comfortably, and the contemporary ThinkPad keyboard features a progressively clean look while retaining the same comfortable feel of the ThinkPad classic keyboard.

Cheesy video here with businessman's hair blowing in the wind on a boat.

Good news: Battery life is 30% longer than the previous Lenovo model.
Bad news: Battery life with a 6-cell is only rated at 6 hours, which is significantly less than I get with CULV Pentium SU4100 in the same sized form factor.

More good news: The battery life of the HP dm1 is supposed to be 9.5 hours with dual-core Fusion

 

[beginner99]

...
Professional Performance: The ultraportable ThinkPad X120e is small in stature by design, but it now packs an even more powerful punch for business productivity. Integrating an AMD Fusion E-Series APU gives users 65 percent faster graphics performance1, which speeds up Web searches, page loads and running business applications. At the same time, the ThinkPad X120e gives users longer battery life – up to 30 percent longer – for more than six hours and meets Energy Star 5.0 specifications. It also carries the EPEAT Gold rating for its environmental attributes. Additionally, the ThinkPad X120e comes with an HDMI port for projecting content on another monitor or a TV screen.
...

If 6 hours is true (meaning like about 4-5 in real usage) then epic fail. But then we don't know anything more detailed like battery size. But 6 hours would be less than certain i3/i5 models...

 

[Eug]

Yep. I had added that to the original post when you posting yours.

Good news: Battery life is 30% longer than the previous Lenovo model.
Bad news: Battery life with a 6-cell is only rated at 6 hours, which is significantly less than I get with CULV Pentium SU4100 in the same sized form factor.

However, the HP dm1 is supposed to get 9.5 hours. That's with dual-core.

Specs

 

[IntelUser2000]

However, the HP dm1 is supposed to get 9.5 hours. That's with dual-core.

Specs

That 2nd link says "up to 9.5 hours" with a 55WHr battery. We've got some solid info now folks!

 

[cbn]

http://www.netbooknews.com/18869/am...gn=Feed%3A netbooknews/nbn (Netbook News)

Information on AMD's upcoming 5 watt dual core 1Ghz Ontario.

It's made for Windows 7 Tablets, but couldn't this also work nicely for Windows 7 Starter netbooks?

 

[extra]

Well, one thing is for sure--bobcat sure looks to be on the road to a home run. Tons of products announced with it. Compare that with AMD's previous mobile releases (where OEM reception was "meh"). Bobcat stuff starting to appear in shops like Best Buy, etc, around here in Portland. Couple months and I predict Walmart, etc, will be *flooded* with them. We'll see if I'm right, but I think I will be.... So far i'm mostly seeing low end "HD Internet" stuff, too.

Oh yeah, for laughs: any real OC'ing results yet?