Will i5 2500k keep pace with PS4/Xbox720 CPU?

[ghost03]

HSA is completely irrelevant to anything PC. Embedded is different, but also of little to no concern for PC enthusiasts like us.

Well, anything PC gaming related anyway.

Swapping back and forth between GPu and CPU on the same memory block would be huge for a number of scientific/engineering type applications, assuming it catches on.

 

[Pilum]

Swapping back and forth between GPu and CPU on the same memory block would be huge for a number of scientific/engineering type applications, assuming it catches on.

Well, that's right. But such applications will mostly be run on real CPUs or GPUs, not anemic APUs. Even if an APU would be more efficient, the overall system efficiency probably would be lower. Maybe useful in dense servers like Seamicros, but not widely useful in the PC market as such. And of course we have to wait for more info about Xeon Phi performance, which should be well suited for just such application profiles.

 

[2is]

Yes, but it's not as useful because you need direct access to the system memory, and the bandwidth to support it. Neither of which exist today.

It's not as efficient true, so if we were talking about equally capable hardware, then yes the PS4 would have the advantage over PC. But we aren't talking about equal hardware, we are talking about significantly more powerful CPUs and GPUs on the PC, and that's before we even get into multi-gpu solutions.

In other words, if we were limited to PS4 hardware in PC's, then yes, the PS4 would be the more powerful gaming platform, but as has been stated previously, we aren't limited to that hardware.

 

[Idontcare]

Hey guys, do you think I will have to upgrade my CPU to play the "next gen" PS4/Xbox720 games on my computer or will a GPU update suffice?

Current rig

i5 2500k@ 4.0ghz
Sapphire HD6850 1gb GDDR5
8 GB G.Skill DDR3-1600
@ 1080p

Danke,

You hardware should be good enough but that doesn't mean it will be...we've seen rather crappy ports from consoles to PCs in the past and I doubt we've seen the last.

 

[magomago]

in terms of pure CPU performance the 2500k destroys the 8 core 1.6GHz Jaguar CPU (much lower clock and IPC),
but it all depends on the level of optimization, so in reality I don't know if 4 years from now the 2500k will have problems to keep up with the console ports, but it's possible I think.

Core 2 Duos should also be much faster than the X360 CPU, but, in some games that's not the case.

just fyi the clockspeed isn't decided yet....rumors show it bounce between 1.6-2.0ghz

 

[ghost03]

Well, that's right. But such applications will mostly be run on real CPUs or GPUs, not anemic APUs. Even if an APU would be more efficient, the overall system efficiency probably would be lower. Maybe useful in dense servers like Seamicros, but not widely useful in the PC market as such. And of course we have to wait for more info about Xeon Phi performance, which should be well suited for just such application profiles.

agreed. I would love a xeon with a titan equivalent attached on.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Hey guys, do you think I will have to upgrade my CPU to play the "next gen" PS4/Xbox720 games on my computer or will a GPU update suffice?

Current rig

i5 2500k@ 4.0ghz
Sapphire HD6850 1gb GDDR5
8 GB G.Skill DDR3-1600
@ 1080p

The CPU wouldn't be your bottleneck I think.

But 1 GB high bandwidth GPU memory + 8 GB low bandwidth CPU memory vs. 8 GB high bandwidth unified memory without any necessary copy operations between CPU and GPU mem space might make a big difference in graphics performance.

 

[cytg111]

Hey guys, do you think I will have to upgrade my CPU to play the "next gen" PS4/Xbox720 games on my computer or will a GPU update suffice?

Current rig

i5 2500k@ 4.0ghz
Sapphire HD6850 1gb GDDR5
8 GB G.Skill DDR3-1600
@ 1080p

Danke,

Time will tell! The way the gpu integrates with the cpu in upcoming consoles could make them far more efficient than the traditional PC build even if the PC on paper sports many more flops. But IMO it is up in the air, its schrodingers gaming box, we will have to open it to know for sure.

 

[notty22]

Over the last 20 months, I read posted numerous times how bitcoin was going to bring AMD's gpu to dominance and profits. If anything, both divisions are struggling more than ever. The console contracts are just this weeks gold rush.

 

[StrangerGuy]

You hardware should be good enough but that doesn't mean it will be...we've seen rather crappy ports from consoles to PCs in the past and I doubt we've seen the last.

Ports would probably be better but at the same time it would also be so much easier to extract console performance out of AMD APUs than the Xenos / Cell + RSX frankensteins that PC GPUs will find themselves much harder to keep up for the same graphical quality.

 

[Pilum]

But 1 GB high bandwidth GPU memory + 8 GB low bandwidth CPU memory vs. 8 GB high bandwidth unified memory without any necessary copy operations between CPU and GPU mem space might make a big difference in graphics performance.

If that was true, then graphics cards connected with PCIe 3.0 instead of 2.0 should show significant improvements in gaming performance. But the improvements are nearly undetectable. So the CPU<->GPU bandwidth doesn't really matter with current systems, and probably won't for a few years. And by then we'll have PCIe 4.0 anyway.

 

[2is]

If that was true, then graphics cards connected with PCIe 3.0 instead of 2.0 should show significant improvements in gaming performance. But the improvements are nearly undetectable. So the CPU<->GPU bandwidth doesn't really matter with current systems, and probably won't for a few years. And by then we'll have PCIe 4.0 anyway.

In the case where the video card has enough frame buffer memory, yes, but what happens when you have a 1GB card but the settings you're playing at need more than 1GB? The result is significant performance drop even if you have 16GB of main memory. With the PS4, that 8GB can be allocated however the developer wishes since it's a unified GDDR5 pool.

The [PC] problem here is the bandwidth limit of main memory, which is what ends up being used if you don't have enough VRAM, not a PCIe bandwidth constraint.

PC gamers have a lot more CPU and GPU power on tap, what we don't have enough of [now] compared to PS4 is video memory. If developers start using textures and AA levels that use 4GB of VRAM all but the very highest end GPU's would be SOL since they are the ones with enough memory. That's really the only scenario I can see where the PS4 would outpace MOST gaming PC's. That said, I don't think that will happen as I don't think the GPU in the PS4 is really powerful enough to adequately make use of that big a frame buffer, but time will tell.

 

[cytg111]

http://www.gamefront.com/carmack-we-do-not-see-the-pc-as-the-leading-platform-for-games/

the relevant part here being

"it is unhappily true that we have these consoles here running at sixty frames per second, and we could have these massively more powerful PC systems that struggle sometimes to hold the same framerate because of unnecessary overheads. If we were programming that hardware directly on the metal the same way we do consoles, it would be significantly more powerful."

So, on the PC we have to go through windows, directx, driver layer and so on .. The consoles can take a shortcut.
In that same article he defines that PC as being an order of magnitude more powerful, yet it still struggles to reach console level performance.

 

[StrangerGuy]

http://www.gamefront.com/carmack-we-do-not-see-the-pc-as-the-leading-platform-for-games/

the relevant part here being

"it is unhappily true that we have these consoles here running at sixty frames per second, and we could have these massively more powerful PC systems that struggle sometimes to hold the same framerate because of unnecessary overheads. If we were programming that hardware directly on the metal the same way we do consoles, it would be significantly more powerful."

So, on the PC we have to go through windows, directx, driver layer and so on .. The consoles can take a shortcut.
In that same article he defines that PC as being an order of magnitude more powerful, yet it still struggles to reach console level performance.

Oblivion ran on 720p on a 40 SP AMD GPU (and a terribad PowerPC CPU), IINW, it probably took a 320 SP HD3870 to exceed it in GFX quality and framerate at the same resolution.

How much is 320/40 = 8 times more powerful a PS4 7870 is again? Keep in mind it's going to be a lot more easier to squeeze out performance this gen thanks to it being fully PC. I can hear the video forum crying already.

 

[cytg111]

It is up in the air .. like with haswell, reviews reviews reviews .. cant wait for 'em.

 

[2is]

That sounds a bit sensationalized to me. It wasn't long after PS3 and 360's release that we were hearing developers talk about their limitations compared to PC's, and those consoles started out more powerful compared to PC's than these new ones are compared to PCs.

There's no doubt that PC's have more overhead. There's also no doubt that they can easily beat consoles with competent programing. Like with BF3 for example where my old Q6600 could support 2.5x the players AND maintain a higher frame rate than it's console counterparts

 

[2is]

Oblivion ran on 720p on a 40 SP AMD GPU (and a terribad PowerPC CPU), IINW, it probably took a 320 SP HD3870 to exceed it in GFX quality and framerate at the same resolution.

How much is 320/40 = 8 times more powerful a PS4 7870 is again? Keep in mind it's going to be a lot more easier to squeeze out performance this gen thanks to it being fully PC. I can hear the video forum crying already.

I'm not sure why you think it's going to be able to squeeze out more performance. I'm not sure what you mean by "fully PC" either. It's not PC, it's x86. If anything, this is a bigger benefit to PC's since porting will be far easier and more efficient.

They're not going to squeeze out more performance (comparatively speaking) the main difference is going to be the quality of games between the start of the PS4's life cycle compared to the end is going to be a lot closer with PS4 than it was with PS3 because it's a tried and true instruction set that's been around a good while.

Take the 360 for example, it's a more familiar system then the PS3 was at the time of release. Look at the games. Both platforms have improved since their inception, but the level of improvement on PS3 is far greater. Not saying "better" than 360, but the delta between the first games and the last games is more striking that on the 360 titles.

Also, the 360 GPU is more powerful than your specs compared to the 3870 give it credit for. It wasn't simply because of "programming efficiency" but because the actual hardware (GPU) was quite powerful. The shaders for example are unified, it has lossless AA (up to 4x IIRC), it had other tricks up its sleeve that allowed it to do things in a single pass instead of multiple passes

 

[cytg111]

Carmack has always been an down to earth kinda guy IMO, an exceptional programmer and as enthusiastic about tech as the next of us, i am inclined to believe that what he says he believes to be true.

 

[cytg111]

I'm not sure why you think it's going to be able to squeeze out more performance. I'm not sure what you mean by "fully PC" either. It's not PC, it's x86. If anything, this is a bigger benefit to PC's since porting will be far easier and more efficient.

They're not going to squeeze out more performance (comparatively speaking) the main difference is going to be the quality of games between the start of the PS4's life cycle compared to the end is going to be a lot closer with PS4 than it was with PS3 because it's a tried and true instruction set that's been around a good while.

Take the 360 for example, it's a more familiar system then the PS3 was at the time of release. Look at the games. Both platforms have improved since their inception, but the level of improvement on PS3 is far greater. Not saying "better" than 360, but the delta between the first games and the last games is more striking that on the 360 titles.

I am not so sure that the fact it is x86 will be such a massive benefit to the PC ports, I only see the tried and optimized x86 compilers as being "ahead" of the curve .. the rest could be so massively different that it does not compare.

 

[2is]

Carmack has always been an down to earth kinda guy IMO, an exceptional programmer and as enthusiastic about tech as the next of us, i am inclined to believe that what he says he believes to be true.

Carmack has also had a deep hatred for Direct X since it's inception. His words are hardly without bias. Exceptional programmer or otherwise.

 

[2is]

I am not so sure that the fact it is x86 will be such a massive benefit to the PC ports, I only see the tried and optimized x86 compilers as being "ahead" of the curve .. the rest could be so massively different that it does not compare.

No one is claiming a massive benefit. (well, I'm not anyway) How much of a benefit remains to be seen. The fact is, there's a lot more similarities to PC now than ever before. Not just the x86 processor but the PC like GPU being used as well. I see only positive influences to PC ports with these new consoles. I'm sure there will still be bad ones, but I'm also sure there will be a lot more good and even great ones compared to what we've had the last several years.

Now, we might see a lot more complaints of "shitty port" simply because a lot of people with lower end machines might not get the performance they've expected from current ports from 7 year old consoles, but that's more of a personal problem than a porting issue.

 

[cytg111]

.. I see only positive influences to PC ports with these new consoles. ..

Agreed. We could even hope for some directx/whatever api to yield some of the same benefits as the consoles enjoy.

 

[StrangerGuy]

Agreed. We could even hope for some directx/whatever api to yield some of the same benefits as the consoles enjoy.

The thing is, the PC side probably gets a decent boost on top of a still horribly optimized gaming platform while the console side an already efficient platform becomes even more amazing especially breaking free of the chains of ill-conceived hardware back in 2005.

 

[2is]

The thing is, the PC side probably gets a decent boost on top of a still horribly optimized gaming platform while the console side an already efficient platform becomes even more amazing especially breaking free of the chains of ill-conceived hardware back in 2005.

Correct, the PC platform certainly isn't the most efficient platform for gaming, nor should it be. PC's are general purpose machines. But that's why we have 700+ watt power supplies and 265watt video cards to power through those inefficiencies.

 

[ghost03]

If developers start using textures and AA levels that use 4GB of VRAM all but the very highest end GPU's would be SOL since they are the ones with enough memory. That's really the only scenario I can see where the PS4 would outpace MOST gaming PC's. That said, I don't think that will happen as I don't think the GPU in the PS4 is really powerful enough to adequately make use of that big a frame buffer, but time will tell.

I think you nailed it with the last sentence. Seems to me that if current GPUs had the throughput to process >4GB of graphics data, they would dedicate some more of that enormous die to additional memory controller area instead of all the cores.