Will mini-PCs take over desktop computing?

[cbn]

Seeing how our desktop is a deriative of the workstation that is a deriative of the server space and since I dont see the server space going out of business and neither the workstation ... thus neither the desktop.

That is what I think too.

But the idea that the average person needs uATX for basic computing is long gone.

With that mentioned, we appear to be left with a battle between value desktop processors and certain mobile processors for basic needs desktop.

The mobile processors are in some ways ideal for making a cheap basic needs PC, but then some of this advantage can be offset by a mobile CPU tax (and sometimes a more expensive price for a slim Mini-ITX enclosure---ironically the larger Mini-ITX and uATX cases with ATX PSUs are often times cheaper. Think sale priced Coolermaster Elite 110 and Corsair CX430 vs. Antec ISK 110 or Mini-box M350)

P.S. I own the Antec ISK 110, and sometimes it can be found pretty cheap on sale (I got mine with a Sempron 2650/MSI AM1l/Antec ISK 110 combo deal for $79.99 AR My mistake the price was $69.99 AR), but the Coolermaster Elite 110 and Corsair CX430 PSU win on price the vast majority of the time. In fact, the lowest I think I have seen the Antec ISK 110 on sale as a standalone is $49.99.

 

[MisterLilBig]

I realize you are referring to a server doing heavy lifting for certain programs, but even the lightweight stuff like TV content ...I don't think that is completely online yet.

I don't have "TV content" anymore. Netflix took that role for me. I guess the fact that I don't watch sports helped a lot. I deem most of what is on TV as BS with more BS ads.

 

[poofyhairguy]

After years of building mini atx rigs I just built two full atx for the fun after swearing off them. Small form factor can be so cramped sometime.

As far as a NUC revolution, many take 2.5 drives. I don't think Windows compute sticks have this huge future. Arm boxes and set top boxes will fill that niche.

 

[cbn]

I don't think Windows compute sticks have this huge future. Arm boxes and set top boxes will fill that niche.

As far as small boxes go, I wish there was an x86 equivalent of the raspberry Pi 2 enclosure:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MQLB1N6/ref=s9_hps_bw_g147_i1

Something simple, something inexpensive.

And then release a cheap PCB with some kind of atom or cat core (with iGPU) processor on it.

Maybe even make the enclosure work with the Intel Mini Lake form factor?

P.S. According to this article Mini Lake and Compute Stick are supposed to be about the same cost.

EDIT: However, with the compute stick, we don't need the ac adapter....so that makes it less expensive.

In fact, future compete sticks will be powered through MHL, so no need to even have a micro usb cable.

 

[Binky]

The PC is already dead for the vast majority of users. They only need a tablet to check email, play stupid games, and do their banking. Geeks like us need PC's, but "normal" people don't. I'll be shocked if the vast majority of "home computers" (sans monitor) are larger than my hand within 5, maybe 10 years.

 

[Spungo]

I can't imagine mini PCs taking over. It seems like we're always going in the direction of needing more power and generating more heat. My first computer was a 386DX, and it didn't even have a heat sink. I had a Pentium 1 that had a heatsink and fan, but the heatsink was very small, the fan was very small, and there was no thermal grease between the CPU and heatsink. My Pentium 2 didn't even have a fan. Then we moved up to the Pentium 4 / Athlon period where every CPU had thermal grease, every CPU had a heatsink, every CPU had a fan. We've gone so far into crazy territory that all of my computers have giant heatsinks with giant fans, and the fans blow air across the CPU instead of onto the CPU. It's now standard for heatsinks to have heat pipes.

Video cards are getting crazy as well. My video card by itself uses something like 500W of power. That didn't exist 15 years ago. Look at a GeForce 4 and it's like a joke. My computers consume more power in my home than all other electrical devices combined. Trying to fit that into a smaller container seems silly.

I would also like to point out the difference between a Nintendo and a PS4. Both were top of the line products when they came out. One of them has no fans and doesn't generate heat. The other generates a lot of heat and it has fans.

 

[VirtualLarry]

(and sometimes a more expensive price for a slim Mini-ITX enclosure---ironically the larger Mini-ITX and uATX cases with ATX PSUs are often times cheaper. Think sale priced Coolermaster Elite 110 and Corsair CX430 vs. Antec ISK 110 or Mini-box M350)

P.S. I own the Antec ISK 110, and sometimes it can be found pretty cheap on sale (I got mine with a Sempron 2650/MSI AM1l/Antec ISK 110 combo deal for $79.99 AR My mistake the price was $69.99 AR), but the Coolermaster Elite 110 and Corsair CX430 PSU win on price the vast majority of the time. In fact, the lowest I think I have seen the Antec ISK 110 on sale as a standalone is $49.99.

Until they sold out of them, I was getting Apex / SuperCase / Allied micro-ATX case + 300W PSU combos for $19.99 + $11 ship at Directron.com.

That's close to the cheapest I've gotten case + PSU for.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I can't imagine mini PCs taking over. It seems like we're always going in the direction of needing more power and generating more heat.

My video card by itself uses something like 500W of power.

My computers consume more power in my home than all other electrical devices combined.

While I think that's an exaggeration on the video card, you're right, that modern PCs take quite a bit of power. But with the focus on power-efficiency the last few years (at least by Intel and NVidia), the very most recent PCs are both faster, and more power-efficient (at the same time!) than PC parts built just 5-8 years ago.

At least, mine are.
Old:
Core2Quad Q9300 @ 3.0
HD4850 512MB
New:
G3258 @ 4.0
HD7950 3GB

We're even seeing mobile phones with GPUs comparable to discrete cards from 5 years ago.

 

[ehume]

Would min-ITX boxen make sense? Sure! Is there still a market around the world for cases, motherboards, huge heatsinks, etc? Yes!!!11!!
Lots of manufacturers making these things, so there's a market. I don't know where they are, but people are buying this gear and building their own rigs. Must enjoy making things.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The PC is already dead for the vast majority of users. They only need a tablet to check email, play stupid games, and do their banking. Geeks like us need PC's, but "normal" people don't. I'll be shocked if the vast majority of "home computers" (sans monitor) are larger than my hand within 5, maybe 10 years.

No matter how small and efficient cpus get, there is always the interface problem. Even if a tablet were powerful enough to do all I need, it is still much more pleasant to use a laptop, or better yet full size desktop, mouse, keyboard and big monitor. I actually have all 3 formfactors, desktop, laptop, and tablet, and no way would I give up the desktop, even if I did not use it for gaming. It is just so much more efficient to do things like online banking and shopping than a tablet. Plus, there is no way I would put any personal information over an android tablet with no security software.

 

[jpiniero]

No matter how small and efficient cpus get, there is always the interface problem. Even if a tablet were powerful enough to do all I need, it is still much more pleasant to use a laptop, or better yet full size desktop, mouse, keyboard and big monitor. I actually have all 3 formfactors, desktop, laptop, and tablet, and no way would I give up the desktop, even if I did not use it for gaming. It is just so much more efficient to do things like online banking and shopping than a tablet. Plus, there is no way I would put any personal information over an android tablet with no security software.

See, that's why Intel created those different mini PC form factors. You can still keep the desktop form factor but go much smaller without giving up much. 5x5 with a 35W QC CPU is more than up to the task for pretty much everything a user would want except for hardcore gaming. You'd save plenty of space and power by doing so.

 

[Blue_Max]

I think the end game is a Smartphone. Because it can be used as a "compute stick" and way more things. All it needs is the app support.

And in all honesty, I think we are already there. It just hasn't been pushed.

Makes sense, really... with just a little more hardware improvement, you could just set the phone down at your desk and it automatically senses your keyboard, mouse and larger monitor. Boom. Desktop. Pick it up and walk away when you're done.

For the non-hardcore gamers, I can totally see it.

 

[frozentundra123456]

See, that's why Intel created those different mini PC form factors. You can still keep the desktop form factor but go much smaller without giving up much. 5x5 with a 35W QC CPU is more than up to the task for pretty much everything a user would want except for hardcore gaming. You'd save plenty of space and power by doing so.

They have their place. For instance I recently toured a clinical lab, and each analytical desk had its own computer. A NUC type device for that would be great. Limited space and doesnt require a lot of processing power.

But I have a desk, and a floor beside the desk to fit a computer on. I dont care if the computer is 3"x5"x6" or 8"x24"x30". I do care if it has a slow low power processor, if it doesnt have room for a dgpu, and if the damn thing throttles because of so much crap stuffed in a small box.

 

[escrow4]

I would never drop below a mid-ish tower unless it was a specialized build. My fat hands simply cannot do it. No. Just no. Both my cases look like IS uses them for target practice and they have always done the job - one HAF 912, one HAF XM.

In daily use if it doesn't have grunt I don't use it. I need a system with a fat slab of storage, multiple drives ideally as I SFTP near daily and need that (most of that) data offline and on tap.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I admit, as much fun as "messing around" with mini-PCs and Compute Sticks is, they are limited in terms of thermal dissipation and CPU power. I'm glad I haven't yet gotten rid of my "grunty" systems, to run DC on.

Edit: Speaking of which, I was just thinking... I picked up a Gigabyte Brix box, red, with a quad-core AMD APU. It's going to a relative, but I was just thinking, I could potentially run DC on that, except for one little niggling thing - thermal dissipation. It already has two heavy copper heatsinks in the box, along with two tiny fans, and vented mesh along the side. If I were to run DC on it and put a maximum load on it, I'm pretty sure (going by Newegg reviews), that those tiny fans would be a-howling.

So another benefit of the ATX form-factor, is that it allows bigger heatsinks, and bigger, slower, and most importantly, QUIETER fans.

 

[Shivansps]

I admit, as much fun as "messing around" with mini-PCs and Compute Sticks is, they are limited in terms of thermal dissipation and CPU power. I'm glad I haven't yet gotten rid of my "grunty" systems, to run DC on.

Edit: Speaking of which, I was just thinking... I picked up a Gigabyte Brix box, red, with a quad-core AMD APU. It's going to a relative, but I was just thinking, I could potentially run DC on that, except for one little niggling thing - thermal dissipation. It already has two heavy copper heatsinks in the box, along with two tiny fans, and vented mesh along the side. If I were to run DC on it and put a maximum load on it, I'm pretty sure (going by Newegg reviews), that those tiny fans would be a-howling.

So another benefit of the ATX form-factor, is that it allows bigger heatsinks, and bigger, slower, and most importantly, QUIETER fans.

Its strange how a Z3735D can work well inside a 8" tablet with a aliminium sheet as a passive cooler and then a compute stick with a fan have problems.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Its strange how a Z3735D can work well inside a 8" tablet with a aliminium sheet as a passive cooler and then a compute stick with a fan have problems.

I know, right? I thought that was weird too, that my HP Stream 7 tablet, has a Z3735F in it too (like my MeegoPad T02 Compute Stick), but the Stream 7 could not only maintain clocks while on Skype, it could also "burst" to a higher speed while web browsing.

Whereas, on the MeegoPad T02, it would throttle down from 1.33Ghz to 0.49Ghz when on Skype for 10 minutes, and web browsing besides, would bring it down to 0.24Ghz, and make Skype partially unusable. It would also throttle (though not as bad) during heavy web browsing alone.

 

[Spungo]

But with the focus on power-efficiency the last few years (at least by Intel and NVidia), the very most recent PCs are both faster, and more power-efficient (at the same time!) than PC parts built just 5-8 years ago.

But you still need high speed processors to get anything done. I'm not sure who wrote Firefox, but the thing barely runs on a Phenom II. Start the task manager and go to any website. The CPU will be maxed out while the page loads, and it still seems to take forever to load the page. With task manager still open and set to always be on top, scroll any website up and down. The CPU will be pinned at 100% on at least 1 core because the page content is not static. Javascript is constantly checking where things are supposed to be and how much of the page should be loaded. If you scroll down, pages like Facebook will automatically load more content, and scripts start thinking about how that content should be displayed. On youtube, scrolling down causes it to load comments, and this seems to be a CPU limited process.

You can see how much CPU power is required for websites just by using a cell phone. On my iphone 4, browsing the web in Chrome took so much CPU power that it would drain the battery from full to automatic shutdown in about an hour. For that reason, I would always browse the web in Opera. Opera would act as a proxy and send static content. Things like dropdown menus on newegg didn't work in Opera Mini, but the battery would last at least twice as long because it's not processing so much garbage on every website.

 

[ShintaiDK]

After years of building mini atx rigs I just built two full atx for the fun after swearing off them. Small form factor can be so cramped sometime.

As far as a NUC revolution, many take 2.5 drives. I don't think Windows compute sticks have this huge future. Arm boxes and set top boxes will fill that niche.

A good mITX build that doesn't drive you crazy pretty much requires M.2 storage only and a modular PSU.

 

[jihe]

Just musing. I've been accumulating SSDs lately, from all of the sales, just to have on hand for new PCs and whatnot.

Then, for the heck of it, I dug out my MeegoPad T02 Compute Stick. It throttles down like a mofo, when it's under any type of CPU load (like a ten minute Skype call), and even now, not doing anything else but typing in the newest version of Firefox, and listening to internet radio, the radio is skipping as I'm typing (but it's not throttling right now, 8C away from TJmax).

It makes for a... hmm, insert your own colorful word here... computing experience. Not quite the experience that one would hope for.

My point is, I've been accumulating "Desktop parts" (like 2.5" SSDs), and I'm wondering if there is going to be an accelerated push in 6-12 months, away from full desktops, towards nearly exclusively mini-PCs for desktop duties? Core M Skylake should propel that, along with the Skylake NUCs. And that my "stockpile" of 2.5" SSDs, SATA cables, and ATX PSUs, are very soon now going to be completely obsolete?

People have been predicting the "death of the desktop PC" for some time now, but I'm wondering if now is the cusp of the death of the desktop PC form-factor.

I don't know what you are talking about. Stockpiling computer parts has never made any financial sense.

 

[MisterLilBig]

I don't think a "Desktop form factor" takes into account the size of the PC.
Screen size, screen distance and Inputs are what most differentiates a platform.
Ergonomics. I can program pretty much anywhere and with any "device" but sitting on a desk and having a keyboard is better. A smartphone, a stick, a NUC, an ITX or ATX does not matter, If I can only have an Output(or 2, 3...) and the preferred Input for the activity, what runs the activity should not concern me at all.

Which again makes me believe that a smartphone or an extremely similar device is the end game. A device that can project interactive visual objects that our eyes can see with no help from another device(eyewear) and that we can touch without another device(gloves).

 

[Engineer]

That's basically my hobby; I spend what money I have on ramen and computer parts. Ok, not exactly, but that's pretty close to the truth. (I do eat more than ramen, occasionally some pizza and BK, and subs from the local convenience store, but I did order three cases of ramen from walmart.com recently. Should last me a month or so.)

And some of the money came from a (late) friend that was wealthy.

Edit: But yeah, I'm a major bargain-hunter too, I make sure I get a deal on stuff; it makes the money go farther.

Edit: For example, the Intel Compute Stick was originally $150 with Win8.1. I bought the MeegoPad T02 Ubuntu version Computer Stick instead for $83 ea., and put my own copy of Win10 32-bit on. (Although I thought I got a deal, and people complained about the fan noise on the Intel Compute Stick, I think I would rather have had a small fan, rather than throttling down to almost nothing. So perhaps, not one of my best purchases.)

Another example, my ATX gaming / DC PCs, I paid roughly $435 for each of them, but if I had to pay list price for the components, they would have cost more than $600.

The SSDs, when I say "accumulate", I mean, not just recent sales, but over the last, oh, maybe 3-4 years.

I've got some 30GB OCZ Agility (used) drives (cost $40 ea), that I decommissioned from my Q9300 rigs, I've got some refurb 50GB OCZ Vertex 2 drives (a few barely used, one NIB, cost $36), a refurb 240GB OCZ Vertex Plus R2 (pretty heavily used, before I got it, cost $82), some Intel 80GB X25-M drives (purchased at TigerDirect for $40 AR in one Hot Deal from a few years ago), some 30GB Transcend drives that I got from TigerDirect more recently, for around $30 shipped, and some others, like my 100GB Intel 710 Enterprise SSDs with HET eMLC NAND, picked up a pair at NeweggFlash during a sale for $70 ea. (List price is $300!)

It's a sickness....

<----- Raises hand....grew up in the age of building lots of rigs of all type and can't get it out of my blood. Always wanting to do more things. Building a new pfsense router from a very low power itx board (N3700 rig with 8GB or DDR3L and 128GB SSD - 11 watts at the wall - no fans at all). SlickDeals kills my wallet....especially this time of year.

 

[cbn]

I know, right? I thought that was weird too, that my HP Stream 7 tablet, has a Z3735F in it too (like my MeegoPad T02 Compute Stick), but the Stream 7 could not only maintain clocks while on Skype, it could also "burst" to a higher speed while web browsing.

Whereas, on the MeegoPad T02, it would throttle down from 1.33Ghz to 0.49Ghz when on Skype for 10 minutes, and web browsing besides, would bring it down to 0.24Ghz, and make Skype partially unusable. It would also throttle (though not as bad) during heavy web browsing alone.

Shouldn't be too long before compute stick atom doesn't throttle (much) without a fan.

Maybe @ 10nm....then the lower SKU(s) CPU hold clocks during various loads? With maybe the highest 10nm bins having some CPU throttling?

I just wonder how the chip will be configured? large iGPU? Small iGPU? Will Rockchip have their own SKU?

Also will we be able to plug these into other types of devices beyond TVs? Maybe a compute stick plugged into some kind of lapdock form factor as well?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Lets hope 10nm when it finally arrives brings more benefits than 14nm did. Cherry Trail has to be one of the most disappointing products intel has produced recently.

 

[cbn]

I know, right? I thought that was weird too, that my HP Stream 7 tablet, has a Z3735F in it too (like my MeegoPad T02 Compute Stick), but the Stream 7 could not only maintain clocks while on Skype, it could also "burst" to a higher speed while web browsing.

Whereas, on the MeegoPad T02, it would throttle down from 1.33Ghz to 0.49Ghz when on Skype for 10 minutes, and web browsing besides, would bring it down to 0.24Ghz, and make Skype partially unusable. It would also throttle (though not as bad) during heavy web browsing alone.

Shouldn't be too long before compute stick atom doesn't throttle (much) without a fan.

Maybe @ 10nm....then the lower SKU(s) CPU hold clocks during various loads? With maybe the highest 10nm bins having some CPU throttling?

I just wonder how the chip will be configured? large iGPU? Small iGPU? Will Rockchip have their own SKU?

Also will we be able to plug these into other types of devices beyond TVs? Maybe a compute stick plugged into some kind of lapdock form factor as well?

Lets hope 10nm when it finally arrives brings more benefits than 14nm did. Cherry Trail has to be one of the most disappointing products intel has produced recently.

Well there is Broxton (14nm Goldmont atom CPU core) coming up and hopefully it does better than Cherry Trail (14nm Airmont atom CPU core).

P.S. There will be a compute stick for Broxton as well called Falls City 2:

(In addition to my hopes of it having a better CPU than Cherry Trail, it should support H.265 decode purely in hardware. This , in contrast, to Braswell/Cherry Trail that needs the iGPU to assist the decode process. Also notice MHL listed in the spec of Falls City 2, that means the compute stick will be able draw power directly from the TV through a single port. While MHL will not affect performance I think it is a technology that could help open the door to new uses for compute sticks (a benefit from the less complicated/cleaner installation)).