Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
Originally posted by: glutenberg
Those statistics vary from study to study unfortunately, but yes, I agree. Money doesn't necessarily guarantee happiness but as you said, happiness is relative.
Regarding Warren Buffett. The guy can be a philanthropist only because he is rich. If he was making just enough to survive or even enough to live comfortably, do you think he would be a philanthropist. He sees there is more to life because he has the means to make it that way. Also, he's donating 85% of his assets to Bill Gate's foundation because he sees an opportunity to use his mass fortune to affect the world's condition. He receives happiness in the fact that he can make a difference in this world. Him not changing his lifestyle doesn't mean much other than the fact that he came from humbler beginnings and understands the value of not being flamboyant with one's wealth.
Regarding JK Rowling, did they also ask her if being homeless was wearing her down? She doesn't have an obligation to finish the books but it's her own ambition that drives her. Do you actually think she'd rather still be homeless and struggling to support her and her daughter? Sure, she was inspired by her condition to strive but that doesn't mean that she can't strive now that she's become rich. She merely has to strive for even greater feats.
If you look at the two extremes of being in abject poverty and wealthy, you will find that wealthier people are happier. When you have to skip meals because you can't afford to spend money on food, when you have to skip taking your sick child to the doctor because you can't afford it, when you don't know if you'll be sleeping on the streets one night or a bed the other, your worries are much greater in scale than, "do my friends like me only for my money?"
How do you become content with your life if you're restricted by monetary means? You ask why we don't just do whatever we want and yet that's the easiest question to answer. It generally stems back to money. We can't do whatever we want because people have to weigh the risks of differing levels of happiness. Most will have to settle for doing something they may not particularly enjoy because you can't live on your dreams as much as Hollywood has told us that we can. Dreams don't feed, clothe, or shelter you. At most they feed the soul.
Regarding your last point. You can definitely help people around you with an average income but with pure financial security, you can not only focus more on helping but you also have more means to affect a larger amount of people. That may not be what makes you happy in life but it leaves open that option.
You're getting into gray area. Remember, black or white.Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Honestly, I think murder is up for toss in terms of good/evil.Originally posted by: her209
Yes or no. Black or white.
Is it wrong to murder someone who is trying to murder you? What if the government makes self defense illegal? The government certainly is not to define what is and isn't "right/wrong. I just said you'd have to be insane to risk doing it.
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Look back on history! Freedom and the independent mind has been the important factors in the advancement of human civilization. Your morality is blurred. You speak like a theoretical physicist where anything can go.
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
The proof is in our history! Since the dawn of mankind humans have STRIVED to be free.
Just like certain animals know what to do from the day they're born because of their instinct, such is our instinct. Freedom is our survival instinct.
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: JS80
BlinderBomber: Is one truly happy even if his state of "happiness" is based on a lie or propaganda?
I think JLG makes a good point about freedom and true happiness. I tend to agree with him that people who are brainwashed to be "happy" are truly not happy inside (e.g. North Koreans, communists). They may show they are happy on the surface but are truly miserable inside because no matter how you see it repression is repression.
Absolutely not. True happiness is both a culturally-influenced and highly personal state of being. I think you're confusing what I'm saying, and that's probably because I'm not articulating myself very well.
What I mean to say is that cultures (not governments) help determine what makes you happy. Living under a repressive regime that takes everything you own and tortures you won't make you happy. Living under a regime that emphasizes collective good over individuality may lead to a genuine state of happiness.
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks etc. might disagree with you.
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Look back on history! Freedom and the independent mind has been the important factors in the advancement of human civilization. Your morality is blurred. You speak like a theoretical physicist where anything can go.
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
The proof is in our history! Since the dawn of mankind humans have STRIVED to be free.
Just like certain animals know what to do from the day they're born because of their instinct, such is our instinct. Freedom is our survival instinct.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: glutenberg
Those statistics vary from study to study unfortunately, but yes, I agree. Money doesn't necessarily guarantee happiness but as you said, happiness is relative.
Regarding Warren Buffett. The guy can be a philanthropist only because he is rich. If he was making just enough to survive or even enough to live comfortably, do you think he would be a philanthropist. He sees there is more to life because he has the means to make it that way. Also, he's donating 85% of his assets to Bill Gate's foundation because he sees an opportunity to use his mass fortune to affect the world's condition. He receives happiness in the fact that he can make a difference in this world. Him not changing his lifestyle doesn't mean much other than the fact that he came from humbler beginnings and understands the value of not being flamboyant with one's wealth.
Regarding JK Rowling, did they also ask her if being homeless was wearing her down? She doesn't have an obligation to finish the books but it's her own ambition that drives her. Do you actually think she'd rather still be homeless and struggling to support her and her daughter? Sure, she was inspired by her condition to strive but that doesn't mean that she can't strive now that she's become rich. She merely has to strive for even greater feats.
If you look at the two extremes of being in abject poverty and wealthy, you will find that wealthier people are happier. When you have to skip meals because you can't afford to spend money on food, when you have to skip taking your sick child to the doctor because you can't afford it, when you don't know if you'll be sleeping on the streets one night or a bed the other, your worries are much greater in scale than, "do my friends like me only for my money?"
How do you become content with your life if you're restricted by monetary means? You ask why we don't just do whatever we want and yet that's the easiest question to answer. It generally stems back to money. We can't do whatever we want because people have to weigh the risks of differing levels of happiness. Most will have to settle for doing something they may not particularly enjoy because you can't live on your dreams as much as Hollywood has told us that we can. Dreams don't feed, clothe, or shelter you. At most they feed the soul.
Regarding your last point. You can definitely help people around you with an average income but with pure financial security, you can not only focus more on helping but you also have more means to affect a larger amount of people. That may not be what makes you happy in life but it leaves open that option.
Ask yourself how many people when they become "rich" actually go out of there way to help others? It is quite rare. The people that do realize that money is transitory and doesn't offer happiness.
Also, another point, by all world standards, I would say the vast majority of people that post on ATOT are at least in the top 15% richest people in the world. How are we restricted other than the restrictions we put on ourselves? For many of us, spending $100-300 on a plane ticket for a vacation (freedom again) is nothing, but to many people in the world that is more than a years salary.
As for J.K. Rowling, yes she was relatively unhappy homeless, but my point was to talk about the extremes and to point out that both sides have their own forms of happiness and unhappiness. Some homeless people would say they are more free to do what they want because they are not tied down to any money system or any system whatsoever. Again, it is a mentallity thing.
I say middle of the road and avoid extremes is probably the most calm life, but that doesn't even guarantee happiness. My point is this, to even put money and happiness together, is invariably a wrong way of thinking. You can make excuses saying that it buys freedom, which it doesn't because freedom is a mentallity again. Money can buy a relative amount of time, but what do you fill it with? Unless you are filling it with what makes you happy (what fulfills you), then you won't be happy, and chances are what fulfills you can be done whther you win the lottery or not.
Originally posted by: desy
No such thing as freedom in a society, as soon as more than two people enter a room compromises are made. . .
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The ancient Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks etc. might disagree with you.
No the educated of their society would agree. From the beginning of time people have revolted and fought wars over their freedom. Just because a society 3000 years ago was "successfully" enslaved that doesn't mean they didn't want to be free.
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
That simply isn't true. People have STRIVED to survive, which often means sacrificing freedom in order to participate in a system where they are guaranteed benefits - protection and food mostly.
Freedom has been willing sacrificed for thousands of years for survival.
My questions from my earlier post still stand: If "Freedom" is biological, where is the gene?
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Look back on history! Freedom and the independent mind has been the important factors in the advancement of human civilization. Your morality is blurred. You speak like a theoretical physicist where anything can go.
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
The proof is in our history! Since the dawn of mankind humans have STRIVED to be free.
Just like certain animals know what to do from the day they're born because of their instinct, such is our instinct. Freedom is our survival instinct.
That simply isn't true. People have STRIVED to survive, which often means sacrificing freedom in order to participate in a system where they are guaranteed benefits - protection and food mostly.
Freedom has been willing sacrificed for thousands of years for survival.
My questions from my earlier post still stand: If "Freedom" is biological, where is the gene?
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: JS80
BlinderBomber: Is one truly happy even if his state of "happiness" is based on a lie or propaganda?
I think JLG makes a good point about freedom and true happiness. I tend to agree with him that people who are brainwashed to be "happy" are truly not happy inside (e.g. North Koreans, communists). They may show they are happy on the surface but are truly miserable inside because no matter how you see it repression is repression.
Absolutely not. True happiness is both a culturally-influenced and highly personal state of being. I think you're confusing what I'm saying, and that's probably because I'm not articulating myself very well.
What I mean to say is that cultures (not governments) help determine what makes you happy. Living under a repressive regime that takes everything you own and tortures you won't make you happy. Living under a regime that emphasizes collective good over individuality may lead to a genuine state of happiness.
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Obviously I can't say for sure because I've never been in that situation. However, I had seen interviews of NK escapees who claim even though they *thought* they were happy, deep inside they felt that something was wrong and not everything was as it seemed.
But to directly answer your question, I would ask you to present evidence on how I am brainwashed, and reject your claim that I am truly not free and not happy. Tell that to a North Korean living in Pyongyang, then present to him evidence and I speculate he would realize he had been living a lie his whole life.
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The idea that freedom or the desire for it is biologically encoded in us is bunk, drivel and, demonstrably incorrect.
Originally posted by: glutenberg
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Look back on history! Freedom and the independent mind has been the important factors in the advancement of human civilization. Your morality is blurred. You speak like a theoretical physicist where anything can go.
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
The proof is in our history! Since the dawn of mankind humans have STRIVED to be free.
Just like certain animals know what to do from the day they're born because of their instinct, such is our instinct. Freedom is our survival instinct.
That simply isn't true. People have STRIVED to survive, which often means sacrificing freedom in order to participate in a system where they are guaranteed benefits - protection and food mostly.
Freedom has been willing sacrificed for thousands of years for survival.
My questions from my earlier post still stand: If "Freedom" is biological, where is the gene?
As you have said, people have a basic instinct to survive, hence, the reasoning for society and community development. It's a stronger guarantee of food and survival. In the current world, food has been replaced by money in essence. Survival depends on your monetary standing. More money means more insurance that you'll have at least the basics for life. Once you have the basics covered, that's when you can feel secure in pursuing other forms of happiness.
Originally posted by: slayer202
I think anyone who says no is either lying, or just doesn't realize it.
EVERYTHING is about money. Wouldn't you be happier if you didn't have to work? Or if you like your job, you can continue without really NEEDING it.
You can do anything you want, and give the people you love the things they need and want
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: glutenberg
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
What if I claimed you were brainwashed into believing that freedom was the key to true happiness? Isn't that the same, on some level, as being told what is best for the group is best for you?
Look back on history! Freedom and the independent mind has been the important factors in the advancement of human civilization. Your morality is blurred. You speak like a theoretical physicist where anything can go.
Biological? Find me the "Freedom" gene. Find any proof whatsoever that freedom is a biologically transmitted trait.
The proof is in our history! Since the dawn of mankind humans have STRIVED to be free.
Just like certain animals know what to do from the day they're born because of their instinct, such is our instinct. Freedom is our survival instinct.
That simply isn't true. People have STRIVED to survive, which often means sacrificing freedom in order to participate in a system where they are guaranteed benefits - protection and food mostly.
Freedom has been willing sacrificed for thousands of years for survival.
My questions from my earlier post still stand: If "Freedom" is biological, where is the gene?
As you have said, people have a basic instinct to survive, hence, the reasoning for society and community development. It's a stronger guarantee of food and survival. In the current world, food has been replaced by money in essence. Survival depends on your monetary standing. More money means more insurance that you'll have at least the basics for life. Once you have the basics covered, that's when you can feel secure in pursuing other forms of happiness.
I mostly agree, but the infusion of money was artificial, no?