Will PS4/Xbox One increase the need of Cores?

[NTMBK]

Sure about that? It doesnt take much to extrapolate the data:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/5

Pretty sure, yes. Take a look at a decent multithreaded benchmark:

(Since all XBone/PS4 games will be written for a fixed platform with 8 cores, we can safely assume that they will be well multithreaded.)

Double core count, higher memory bandwidth (on the PS4 anyway) and marginally higher clock speed should give slightly over double the performance of Kabini there. Let's say the Pentium Haswell is about 3GHz, so that's 25% high clock than the 2020M used there, and maybe 5% IPC improvement (remember, no AVX in the Pentiums). The PS4 chip comes out faster- not massively, but decently. As I said, the i3 would probably exceed it (especially using code tuned for AVX2, as it certainly would be in a console). And certainly the Celerons would be far behind.

 

[SiliconWars]

And don't forget Cinebench is horribly biased in favour of HT as well. An 8 core Jaguar will probably defeat a dual+HT Haswell in most MT benchmarks capable of using 8 threads.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Pretty sure, yes. Take a look at a decent multithreaded benchmark:

(Since all XBone/PS4 games will be written for a fixed platform with 8 cores, we can safely assume that they will be well multithreaded.)

Double core count, higher memory bandwidth (on the PS4 anyway) and marginally higher clock speed should give slightly over double the performance of Kabini there. Let's say the Pentium Haswell is about 3GHz, so that's 25% high clock than the 2020M used there, and maybe 5% IPC improvement (remember, no AVX in the Pentiums). The PS4 chip comes out faster- not massively, but decently. As I said, the i3 would probably exceed it (especially using code tuned for AVX2, as it certainly would be in a console). And certainly the Celerons would be far behind.

There are no games that will use 8 cores due to core reservation. Plus there is already 3.3Ghz Pentiums. Not to mention the scaling issue for the consoles. You are not getting 8 times the performance with 8 cores.

 

[blackened23]

I still feel like you're basing your argument on prior generation consoles, which isn't entirely a valid comparison since porting to/from the 360/ps3 to the PC is a far different process than it will be with the next generation.

I don't know what kind of scaling there will be, but I feel like more games will definitely take advantage of multiple cores with the next generation. x86 is the baseline for coding with the XB1 and PS4, which was clearly not the case before - even if the 360 and ps3 allowed multiple threads, that just did not translate directly to PC ports because the coding and porting process was so different. That (coding difference) won't be an issue with the next generation. The extent of porting with the next generation will mostly focus on control differences, FOV, higher resolutions, etc. Whereas, with the 360 and PS3 you essentially had to start from near-scratch to port a game to the PC.

Now, we can all speculate on what type of scaling will be present, but I really feel like more games will take advantage of additional cores/threads. It isn't far-fetched as you make it seem.

 

[NTMBK]

There are no games that will use 8 cores due to core reservation. Plus there is already 3.3Ghz Pentiums. Not to mention the scaling issue for the consoles. You are not getting 8 times the performance with 8 cores.

I'm still not utterly convinced about the core reservation stuff. *shrug* If its true, then fair enough- I was working under the assumption that it is not, though.

As for 3.3GHz Pentiums- oops I thought that they ended about 2.9GHz, with the 2020- looks like I missed a few SKUs. Still, that's ~10% on top, still not enough to let it beat an 8 core Jaguar.

As for scaling to 8 cores- pleeeeease. We write workstation apps that scale to 32 threads quite comfortably- it's all about using the right algorithms and design. It's certainly very doable, though.

 

[SiliconWars]

Guys seriously - The A4 5000 can run Skyrim 720p at 30fps.

http://techreport.com/review/24856/amd-a4-5000-kabini-apu-reviewed/7

Yes, that's with the IGP running the most single threaded game out there. Are we supposed to believe that 6 or more cores won't be capable of running games exceptionally well?

More to the point, why are we entertaining Shintai's idea in the first place? Both Sony and Microsoft are betting billions on this, you think they have some idea of what the hardware is capable of?

 

[NTMBK]

Guys seriously - The A4 5000 can run Skyrim 720p at 30fps.

http://techreport.com/review/24856/amd-a4-5000-kabini-apu-reviewed/7

Yes, that's with the IGP running the most single threaded game out there. Are we supposed to believe that 6 or more cores won't be capable of running games exceptionally well?

More to the point, why are we entertaining Shintai's idea in the first place? Both Sony and Microsoft are betting billions on this, you think they have some idea of what the hardware is capable of?

Holy cow, that's an impressive improvement over Bobcat:

 

[ShintaiDK]

Guys seriously - The A4 5000 can run Skyrim 720p at 30fps.

http://techreport.com/review/24856/amd-a4-5000-kabini-apu-reviewed/7

Yes, that's with the IGP running the most single threaded game out there. Are we supposed to believe that 6 or more cores won't be capable of running games exceptionally well?

More to the point, why are we entertaining Shintai's idea in the first place? Both Sony and Microsoft are betting billions on this, you think they have some idea of what the hardware is capable of?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/6

The short summary is that not a single game manages to crest the 30FPS mark, and I even ran additional tests at the minimum quality settings (at 1366x768) to see if I could improve the results. Sadly, I couldn’t, at least not enough to make the games playable; the best I managed was around 25 FPS in Bioshock, Skyrim, and Tomb Raider at minimum detail, and most titles remained in the sub-20 FPS range. Titles that tend to be more taxing on the CPU side of things like StarCraft II are even worse, with frame rates in StarCraft II being half of what IVB ULV gets at our Value (medium quality minus antialiasing) preset.

 

[NTMBK]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/6

Yes, oddly enough games which are optimised for lots of threads do better on higher core count CPUs than titles which are not. Which type of game do you think developers on an 8 core console are going to make?

 

[Silverforce11]

That's because its StarCraft 2, it doesn't even care if you have a quad or hex or 8 cores, blizzard games are pretty lame when it comes to hardware usage.

And entirely different when THEY BUILD THE GAME GROUND UP to take advantage of Jaguar on consoles. So your comparisons are pointless.

How hard is the concept for you to understand? Comparing current or old PC benches to future titles with full optimization for both console platform... really??

 

[blackened23]

Indeed, blizzard games have always had completely horrible multi-core implementations. I remember when they patched WoW to support more than 1 core, and the performance change was non-existent. I wouldn't use a blizzard game for any type of argument related to multi core.

Only recently did WoW add support for x64. I find it really sad that it has taken this long for x64 / multi core to become implemented in most games, backwards compatibility has always been the strength of x86 - yet by the same token, it has always been the Achilles heel especially for gaming. Here we are in 2013 and game developers are coding for backwards compatibility in windows XP completely ridiculous, I say. I hope that changes this fall when everything is coded x86-x64 from the ground up.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Yes, oddly enough games which are optimised for lots of threads do better on higher core count CPUs than titles which are not. Which type of game do you think developers on an 8 core console are going to make?

Yes, but point is none of the games in the AT test were playable. You are going to be gpu limited, so it doesn't really matter how many CPU cores you code for.

 

[tential]

Games aren't CPU bound anyway. Even if we get multicore support in next gen, I don't really think it'll change much. So the load gets distributed more evenly between cores? That may even make things worse off since you'd have to have all 4 cores active rather than 2 active (power usage wise).

I dunno if I'm making this clear or not:
Lets say game supports dual core and takes up 90% usage on both cores.

Next gen comes around and now it supports four cores and takes up 45% usage on all four cores.

Just was saying/wondering, there really is no point in hoping for multithreaded unless we're getting a better game because of it. I just hope that is actually the case.

 

[galego]

An 8-core Jaguar @ 1.6GHz would barely match a 3.2GHz 2M/4C Piledriver, so no, I doesnt come remotely close to a 4C/8T Haswell CPU >3.5GHz (and developers will only have access to either 6 or 7 of those cores in X1/PS4).

The performance of the jaguar cores and how the CPU matches a i7 was mentioned before several times. You can extrapolate the argument to a FX chip. Moreover, the dev kits use 8-core FX chips.

There are no games that will use 8 cores due to core reservation.

You repeat this, but you have not posted a source.

In any case, it is irrelevant if it is true or only another rumour that you spread (recall your no AMD APU on PS4 and Xbox One?). We know that 6-thread games are being already developed for consoles. Neither Ivi nor Haswell i5 cannot run four game threads at once. That is why game developers choice was a FX-8350.

 

[2is]

The performance of the jaguar cores and how the CPU matches a i7 was mentioned before several times. You can extrapolate the argument to a FX chip. Moreover, the dev kits use 8-core FX chips.

The performance of jaguar cores and how it cannot match an i7 has also been mentioned. It also has the benefit of being accurate.

 

[SlowSpyder]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/6

See? This is EXACTLY why developers will be forced to make games more multithreaded. Hence, why I see FX 8xxx and probably FX 6xxx chips aging favorably compared to i5.

 

[Schmide]

There are no games that will use 8 cores due to core reservation.

WTH does that even mean?

I think core reservation does the opposite of what you're saying? Yes it allows core affinity, but it doesn't restrict the use of other cores.

Do you make these random statements just to rage against the world?

Programmers code to the least common denominator. Then optimize to a the broadest range possible without getting too specific.

If an 8-core CPU holds a broad range of the install base, you can bet there will be some utilization of those extra cores.

PS I still want to know if you think an ARM core is more powerful than the Jaguar?

 

[ShintaiDK]

WTH does that even mean?

I think core reservation does the opposite of what you're saying? Yes it allows core affinity, but it doesn't restrict the use of other cores.

Do you make these random statements just to rage against the world?

Programmers code to the least common denominator. Then optimize to a the broadest range possible without getting too specific.

If an 8-core CPU holds a broad range of the install base, you can bet there will be some utilization of those extra cores.

PS I still want to know if you think an ARM core is more powerful than the Jaguar?

The Xbox One will have atleast 2 cores reserved for OS. The PS4 atleast 1. Meaning a game can maximum use 6 and 7 cores if it holds.
http://geartacular.com/xbox-one-vs-playstation-4-ps4/

You ever asked me about ARM? The answer is obviously no.

 

[Sweepr]

In case there is still any doubt about OS reservation (it exists, its the number of cores reserved that is not set in stone yet):

Interestingly, Guerrilla's presentation explicitly refers to "every" core being used, but the screenshots of the profiling tools - developed by the team itself owing to the work-in-progress nature of Sony's own analysis software - only seems to be explicitly identifying five worker threads. As of right now, we have no real idea of how much CPU time the PS4's new operating system sucks up and how much is left to game developers, and we understand that the system reservation is up in the air. However, the profiling tool shows that in the here and now there are indeed five workers threads, plus the "orchestrator" and each of them is locked to a single core. The inference we can draw right now is that while OS reservation hasn't been locked down, developers have access to at least six of the eight cores of the PS4's CPU.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-killzone-shadow-fall

 

[Schmide]

The Xbox One will have atleast 2 cores reserved for OS. The PS4 atleast 1. Meaning a game can maximum use 6 and 7 cores if it holds.
http://geartacular.com/xbox-one-vs-playstation-4-ps4/

You do understand that the OS is doing work for the game? It's not sitting idle or folding at home dude!

You ever asked me about ARM? The answer is obviously no.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35218349&postcount=45

Good to know, because using the ARM core to decode graphics would be stupid.

 

[2is]

In case there is still any doubt about OS reservation (it exists, its the number of cores reserved that is not set in stone yet):

lol, I don't think that quote removes any doubt.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You do understand that the OS is doing work for the game? It's not sitting idle or folding at home dude!



http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35218349&postcount=45

Good to know, because using the ARM core to decode graphics would be stupid.

The cores reserved to the OS will not do any game work. Else it would be pointless to reserve them. And they will have plenty of other tasks.

And decode graphics? What are you talking about? Reread the post you quote again please.

 

[Sweepr]

lol, I don't think that quote removes any doubt.

The fact that both X360/PS3 reserve some CPU power to the OS (example: 1 of the 7 SPEs in PS3s Cell, leaving 6 to games), there are rumours of 1-2 reserved cores in X1/PS4 and Guerrilla Games, one of Sony's first-party studios is shown to be using 6/8 Jaguar cores inside PS4 devkit clearly gives you a hint. Let me help you with this: not all cores are available to game developers.

Sony's own PS4 performance analysis tools are still at their formative stages, so Guerrilla made its own. This is the CPU profile - we see five worker threads in addition the main scheduler, suggesting that in the here and now at least, PS4 devs have access to six of the eight AMD processor cores.

 

[2is]

The fact that both X360/PS3 reserve some CPU power to the OS (example: 1 of the 7 SPEs in PS3s Cell, leaving 6 to games), there are rumours of 1-2 reserved cores in X1/PS4 and Guerrilla Games, one of Sony's first-party studios is shown to be using 6/8 Jaguar cores inside PS4 devkit clearly gives you a hint. Let me help you with this: not all cores are available to game developers.

Let me help you... From your own quote (which you either didn't read or need help deciphering)

The inference we can draw right now is that while OS reservation hasn't been locked down, developers have access to at least six of the eight cores of the PS4's CPU.

The first bolded part means they have no idea. That means there's still doubt to be had.

The second bolded, area "at least" means it could be more. That also means there's still doubt to be had.

Then there's the opening sentence that says "every" core can be used.

If anything, that created more doubt, not less.

You're welcome.

 

[Sweepr]

Let me help you... From your own quote (which you either didn't read or need help deciphering)



The first bolded part means they have no idea. That means there's still doubt to be had.

The second bolded, area "at least" means it could be more. That also means there's still doubt to be had.

You're welcome.

Hasnt been locked down refers to the number of cores reserved (not the fact that there will be CPU reservation). PS4 is expected to have only 1 out of 8 cores reserved at some point (more mature devkits?), not 2 out of 8 like the current devkit.