Will science ever wipe out organized religion?

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Here's something I've been wondering about, and anyone else believes in a singular God can feel free to chime in.

Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

What you're referring to is theological fatalism.

From the scientific argument, it is flawed because it assumes that God (should He exist) exists in and experiences time the same way we do.

From the theological argument, it assumes that God is not omnipotent. If He said we have Free Will, then we have it.

Remember, He is supposed to be the Alpha and Omega. That doesn't mean that He knows the future, that means He's already there.

Hmm... so he's not necessarily omniscient?

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Whisper
SNIP



I agree, religion and science are not in conflict with each other any more than Isaac Newton was in conflict with the easter bunny. Science does not conflict with fairy tales, science is above all that. Science shows what is and lets the fairy tales evaporate under the weight of their own lies. I really don't understand you Vic, I truly don't know whether you're truly ignorant, just a troll looking to fight or if you've been so brainwashed by your false mytholigies that you don't even listen to the foolishness that spews forth from you every time religion is called into question. It's absolutely mesmerizing to watch your fly into a spittle-flecked rage every time someone with an education understands what a twisted web of lies your religion is.

I consider myself to be a fairly educated individual, yet I also consider myself to be religious. This has done little to cause me any internal distress, and I have yet to see anything that would adamantly label my personal religion as mythology or a fairy tale.

it really depends on how you interpret your holy texts. Since we're in America I'll guess you're Christian (feel free to correct me), do you take the Bible literally? Do you believe in creationism and that all the animals in the world were created in their present form?

I won't get too in-depth in terms of my religious beliefs, but I don't know that I'd technically label myself as Christian. As for the bible, no, I don't interpret it literally because I know those who recorded it were human, and as such were capable of inaccuracy.

Perhaps the easiest way to explain my personal religiosity would be to say that I don't use it to explain anything. If I want to find out why something is the way that it is, I use science; that's what science is for, and why it was developed. Religion is a personal journey used to examine a multitude of things, the findings of science among them.

Edit: a better way to describe myself would likely be spiritual rather than religious.

Fair enough, personally I look at those two things differently. So just curious, do u believe in God, universal creator, mover of things yadda yadda yadda? Or that theres merely something beyond the physical that we are not aware of
[/quote]

I do believe in God specifically, rather than believing in a more vague-ish something beyond the physical, yes.

Edit: and damn, I should stop nesting quotations right about now.[/quote]
Here's something I've been wondering about, and anyone else believes in a singular God can feel free to chime in.

Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient[/quote]

I honestly haven't been able to resolve this issue to any degree within myself yet, and it's something on which I frequently reflect. I don't know if it's that God is omniscient and chose to impose limits on His own abilities for whatever reason, if it's that He chose to allow these events/actions/happenings to occur so as to spur the further development of multitudes of individuals, if it's that He isn't in fact omniscient, or if it's a host of other possibilities.

However, I will say that for many years now, I've had a fundamental problem believing in the concept of Hell. In my mind, and the way I see Him, God is perfect in all respects. Being perfect, why would he choose to relegate a soul to eternal damnation for a series of decisions made in a finite amount of time (i.e., life)?

In all honesty, and as it stands now, I tend to see Hell as a creation of man, initially proposed and perpetuated as a way of easing the minds of individuals who, at seeing a veritable laundry list of commandments, rules, regulations, etc., wanted some way of ensuring that by adhering to said principles, they would eventually be paid back in relation to those who likely get ahead by not "playing by the book" so to speak.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Crono
To all those who put their faith in science: How can you put your faith in something that is always changing? And even if science could be perfected and complete (which it can't), you or I will never live long enough to see it become so.

I'm not saying science is a bad thing, but rather how you use it (technology) can either be for good or bad. And the researchers of science are imperfect people, just like the rest of us, and science is definitely subject to the biases and will of those who use it (science is knowledge, and knowledge is power). Science is merely a tool for us to better understand the physical workings of the universe, and not a means for salvation. No matter how much scientific knowledge increases, it will never be able to address sin, which is, whether you acknowledge it or not, the single greatest problem with mankind. No matter how many contributions science has given us, mankind is still depraved and corrupt. Don't think people aren't so bad? Just take a look at the news. And before you say "not everyone is evil", yes, everyone is evil. The quality of man extends to sin; the only thing preventing many of from committing the same crimes that land others in jail for life is the fear of consequences. Even "Mother" Teresa was an evil person by nature, no matter what good deeds she did. To say that one person is any more moral or just then any other person is prideful and ignorant of the sad nature that every person is born with. The only one who can save you from sin is the God, by Jesus Christ His Son, who died on the cross for your sins.

I believe people can be led to do good things (good in the sense that it benefits others) without being motivated by religion. And how would you define "people are evil?" Seems a rather ambiguous term given that everyone has commited SOME kind of misdeed yet most have commited many more good deeds. And I think your assertion that you can't describe one person as being more moral than anyother is just silly. Mother Teresa is more moral than Hitler. Maybe not by nature (although this could easily be argued) but atleast by their actions.

Yes, people can do things that benefit others. But look how often it is that these deeds are done for selfish reasons; the world often gives in order to feel good about themselves, to justify themselves morally out of guilt, or in order to boast before men. Selfless and unconditional love is rare, but it is the type of love that God has in abundance even towards all of us, who don't deserve it, and it is the type of love that Christians are called to show by the grace and Spirit of God.

Evil is defined as pride that leads to disobedience to God's Word (sinning against God). Any other definition would be ambiguous or would be wrong. The word "moral" is the wrong word (sorry), but Mother Teresa wasn't any less guilty of sin or evil than Hitler, even if she did not do as many evil acts or as on a large scale. By nature, she was as evil as any other human being that has ever lived.

Righteousness is not a relative matter. There is no magic number or level of sins that you can get away with and be considered righteous and be saved. Righteousness is imputed by God, and is something that no man can achieve of his own works or merits; this is one of the fundamental facts that separates Christianity from religion. Man cannot save himself from sin, which condemns man to physical and then eternal death, but only God can save man. To deny the need for salvation is to deny truth.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

Read this
and
this

God has predestined some to salvation from before the foundation of this world. God is perfectly just to do so, and we cannot impose our ideas of righteousness on almighty God.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Here's something I've been wondering about, and anyone else believes in a singular God can feel free to chime in.

Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

What you're referring to is theological fatalism.

From the scientific argument, it is flawed because it assumes that God (should He exist) exists in and experiences time the same way we do.

From the theological argument, it assumes that God is not omnipotent. If He said we have Free Will, then we have it.

Remember, He is supposed to be the Alpha and Omega. That doesn't mean that He knows the future, that means He's already there.

Hmm... so he's not necessarily omniscient?

Answering purely hypothetically: no, He is, but He's also omnipotent. Just because He sees doesn't mean that He is forced to interfere. That's the religious argument.

And like I said, theological fatalism also makes the assumption that this omnipotent/omniscient God also experiences time the same way we do. And even just considered the concept of this God from the strictest hypothetical basis, you should be able to see that that would be a ridiculous assumption.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

Read this
and
this

God has predestined some to salvation from before the foundation of this world. God is perfectly just to do so, and we cannot impose our ideas of righteousness on almighty God.

Calvinism is a heresy. Contrary to the most basic principles of Christianity.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Hmm... so he's not necessarily omniscient?

God is omniscient. If He weren't, He would not be God. He created all things, He knows all things, He is immortal, He is all-powerful, He is perfectly loving, He is perfectly righteous, and is perfect in all His ways and actions.

 

[3NF]

All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens. Maybe Vic is one of them.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: 3NF
All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens. Maybe Vic is one of them.

So long as the aliens are hot, I'm all for it.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Hmm... so he's not necessarily omniscient?

God is omniscient. If He weren't, He would not be God. He created all things, He knows all things, He is immortal, He is all-powerful, He is perfectly loving, He is perfectly righteous, and is perfect in all His ways and actions.

So does that mean everything in heaven is perfect? My wife is Catholic - I harass her all the time about. I once asked her, what happens in heaven. She said your spirit floats around and everything is perfect. I told her I'd rather stay here and keep my penis.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Whisper

I honestly haven't been able to resolve this issue to any degree within myself yet, and it's something on which I frequently reflect. I don't know if it's that God is omniscient and chose to impose limits on His own abilities for whatever reason, if it's that He chose to allow these events/actions/happenings to occur so as to spur the further development of multitudes of individuals, if it's that He isn't in fact omniscient, or if it's a host of other possibilities.

God does allow individuals and even angels to make their decisions, right or wrong, but His Will is not affected by these things, because before the creation of the World He saw what was going to happen and His perfect plan takes all things into account.

However, I will say that for many years now, I've had a fundamental problem believing in the concept of Hell. In my mind, and the way I see Him, God is perfect in all respects. Being perfect, why would he choose to relegate a soul to eternal damnation for a series of decisions made in a finite amount of time (i.e., life)?

God is perfectly just. If it is His will to deliver some for all eternity into heaven, and condemn sinners to eternal separation from Him, that is His prerogative. Those who truly love God will accept His gift of salvation, and those who don't will go to hell. Hell is ultimately separation from God, which is what those who do not believe deserve. You cannot judge God's righteousness by your own standard.

In all honesty, and as it stands now, I tend to see Hell as a creation of man, initially proposed and perpetuated as a way of easing the minds of individuals who, at seeing a veritable laundry list of commandments, rules, regulations, etc., wanted some way of ensuring that by adhering to said principles, they would eventually be paid back in relation to those who likely get ahead by not "playing by the book" so to speak.

Hell is not a creation of man. It is biblical and it is what God has said is awaiting those who reject Him. It is the "lake of fire", or "outer darkness" that is referred to many times in the New Testament.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

Read this
and
this

God has predestined some to salvation from before the foundation of this world. God is perfectly just to do so, and we cannot impose our ideas of righteousness on almighty God.

Calvinism is a heresy. Contrary to the most basic principles of Christianity.

Calvinism is not heresy, and could not be so because it is taught many tiems throughout the Word of God. What is found in the Bible is not "contrary to the most basic principles of Christianity", but is the very basis for Christian living and truth.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Whisper

I honestly haven't been able to resolve this issue to any degree within myself yet, and it's something on which I frequently reflect. I don't know if it's that God is omniscient and chose to impose limits on His own abilities for whatever reason, if it's that He chose to allow these events/actions/happenings to occur so as to spur the further development of multitudes of individuals, if it's that He isn't in fact omniscient, or if it's a host of other possibilities.

God does allow individuals and even angels to make their decisions, right or wrong, but His Will is not affected by these things, because before the creation of the World He saw what was going to happen and His perfect plan takes all things into account.

However, I will say that for many years now, I've had a fundamental problem believing in the concept of Hell. In my mind, and the way I see Him, God is perfect in all respects. Being perfect, why would he choose to relegate a soul to eternal damnation for a series of decisions made in a finite amount of time (i.e., life)?

God is perfectly just. If it is His will to deliver some for all eternity into heaven, and condemn sinners to eternal separation from Him, that is His prerogative. Those who truly love God will accept His gift of salvation, and those who don't will go to hell. Hell is ultimately separation from God, which is what those who do not believe deserve. You cannot judge God's righteousness by your own standard.

In all honesty, and as it stands now, I tend to see Hell as a creation of man, initially proposed and perpetuated as a way of easing the minds of individuals who, at seeing a veritable laundry list of commandments, rules, regulations, etc., wanted some way of ensuring that by adhering to said principles, they would eventually be paid back in relation to those who likely get ahead by not "playing by the book" so to speak.

Hell is not a creation of man. It is biblical and it is what God has said is awaiting those who reject Him. It is the "lake of fire", or "outer darkness" that is referred to many times in the New Testament.

As I said before, I choose not to take the bible literally, nor believe necessarily all that it puts forth. This is because, as I said earlier, it was recorded by humans, and therefore subject to their personal biases and world views. I feel Hell to be one of these biases, although I very well could be wrong, and might change my opinion at some later point.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

Read this
and
this

God has predestined some to salvation from before the foundation of this world. God is perfectly just to do so, and we cannot impose our ideas of righteousness on almighty God.

seems rather unloving for him to create children that are doomed to go to hell.

 

[Kanalua]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Kanalua
Whoa...so all instruments of war are derived from religion? You are obviously NOT a scientist.

Nuclear weapons, explosives, high explosives, guns, bullets, barb wire, torpedoes, missiles, nerve agents, biological weapons, spears, knifes, swords, iron, steel, depleted uranium, thermo-nuclear weapons... I can go on...

Surely there is more hope for science than your example of it...

Don't feed the troll with ideas like that. It might make him unstable and then he'll go atop a bell tower and start murdering people with his religious dogma. Bam... buddha speech right through the brain. Look at the blood... and the brain matter. Wow, what a powerful weapon.

I almost sprayed my laptop with Dr. Pepper...LOL...

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: 3NF

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Hmm... so he's not necessarily omniscient?

God is omniscient. If He weren't, He would not be God. He created all things, He knows all things, He is immortal, He is all-powerful, He is perfectly loving, He is perfectly righteous, and is perfect in all His ways and actions.

So does that mean everything in heaven is perfect? My wife is Catholic - I harass her all the time about. I once asked her, what happens in heaven. She said your spirit floats around and everything is perfect. I told her I'd rather stay here and keep my penis.

Everything in heaven is perfect. Heaven, contrary to popular culture, is not some mystical clouds in the sky type thing that you see in those Philly cream cheese commercials. Heaven (the heaven that believers go to after death and the return of Christ) is actually the combined kingdom of Heaven (spiritual in nature, where God's throne is and where the angels are) and the new, perfect Earth and universe that will be created by Christ. In the Kingdom of God (kingdom of the new heavens and earth) there will be an abundance of learning, praising God, and other glorious things that we cannot even imagine. People in the Kingdom of God will have physical bodies, but they will be new, perfect, immortal and incorruptible bodies.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Supposedly God is omniscient, the alpha and the omega so he knows the future. Which would also mean, he knows what choices you will make and God has already seen the future. WHich would mean he has put souls onto this Earth with full knowledge they will make the series of choices that ultimately damn them to hell. THese peopel can't escape from their future because any free choice they make is mere illusion since the future has already been seen by God. Assuming you CAN make a free choice that God can not predict, it would mean God is NOT omnisciient

Read this
and
this

God has predestined some to salvation from before the foundation of this world. God is perfectly just to do so, and we cannot impose our ideas of righteousness on almighty God.

seems rather unloving for him to create children that are doomed to go to hell.

I agree, hence my current beliefs.

 

[Mo0o]

I also want to add that if heaven is just praising god all day long it seems like a reall yboring place. anyone wanna carpool to hell?

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: 3NF
All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens. Maybe Vic is one of them.

So long as the aliens are hot, I'm all for it.

I'm not so sure they themselves are, but they can probably whip up (genetically engineer) your ideal women

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 3NF
All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens. Maybe Vic is one of them.

You should read my infamous "What's the difference between believing in God and believing in Aliens?" thread.

The problem I have with most AT'ers is that they are no where near skeptical enough. The religious faithful are bad enough, but at least they know they're practicing a faith, and so aren't deluded like the faithful who treat science like a religion.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 3NF
All life on this planet was genetically engineered by aliens. Maybe Vic is one of them.

You should read my infamous "What's the difference between believing in God and believing in Aliens?" thread.

The problem I have with most AT'ers is that they are no where near skeptical enough. The religious faithful are bad enough, but at least they know they're practicing a faith, and so aren't deluded like the faithful who treat science like a religion.

anyone who follows science should read Kundt. really interesting ideas

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
I also want to add that if heaven is just praising god all day long it seems like a reall yboring place. anyone wanna carpool to hell?

The next book you should read.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: Crono

Everything in heaven is perfect. Heaven, contrary to popular culture, is not some mystical clouds in the sky type thing that you see in those Philly cream cheese commercials. Heaven (the heaven that believers go to after death and the return of Christ) is actually the combined kingdom of Heaven (spiritual in nature, where God's throne is and where the angels are) and the new, perfect Earth and universe that will be created by Christ. In the Kingdom of God (kingdom of the new heavens and earth) there will be an abundance of learning, praising God, and other glorious things that we cannot even imagine. People in the Kingdom of God will have physical bodies, but they will be new, perfect, immortal and incorruptible bodies.

If man has free will in heaven, then I don't see how "perfection" is possible

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Crono
To all those who put their faith in science: How can you put your faith in something that is always changing? And even if science could be perfected and complete (which it can't), you or I will never live long enough to see it become so.

Your question is rather vague. What do you mean by science "is always changing"? "Cutting-edge" theories may change quite a bit, however theories that have been established as facts beyond reasonable doubt rarely change. For example, I can confidently say that the fundamentals of evolutionary theory will probably not change, however I can do no such thing for current speculations on the precise evolutionary path from primates to modern day humans. I can confindently say that the physics equations you [hopefully] learned in high school will probably not change, however I cannot do that for string theory, which may not even be a verifiable theory (I don't even know anything about it beyond simple summaries).

 

[magomago]

I read it all of this - man I love Vic HE may have a pointed tongue at times, but he clearly has no bias for or against religion.


As far as I'm concerned - the two aren't really related...

I can be a "scientist" and try to understand the basic fundamentals by which things in nature work and STILL believe in God...

And Vic brought up good points - MANY people who really propelled our sciences were religious. Aside from the list he came up with, names like Cauchy (who was a very devout catholic) who absolutely dominate continuum mechanics appear left and right.