Will science ever wipe out organized religion?

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Wow, this thread has PROVEN the theory of evolution. Look at it's evolution:

6000SUX vs. Vic
6000SUX vs. BigJ
6000SUX vs. tealk

I think there may have even been a 6000SUX vs. Crono in there somewhere too.

I wonder where the next evolutionary step will bring us to?

Some would probably prefer to label this "survival of the dumbest" or at least "survival of the stubbornest". Incidentally, a positive comment on your religion: I noticed that Mormons are considered an exception to the negative correlation between education and religiosity.

Thanks for the compliment. We always like those.

I've enjoyed reading the comments back and forth and try not to call any dumb (when I can control myself), so I'll stick with mine, but thanks again!

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Crono
Science has never proven anything wrong that is written in the Bible.

I don't know...science has yet to observe asexual reproduction occuring within mammals, or vertebrates...or multicellular organisms for that matter (if you discount plant propagation, which is really cloning...)

Where do you find asexual reproduction in the Bible?

Define virgin birth for me Then hit yourself on the head.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Wow, this thread has PROVEN the theory of evolution. Look at it's evolution:

6000SUX vs. Vic
6000SUX vs. BigJ
6000SUX vs. tealk

I think there may have even been a 6000SUX vs. Crono in there somewhere too.

I wonder where the next evolutionary step will bring us to?

I would call that "de-volution"

 

[TheSlamma]

I "Pray" for that every night

 

[RapidSnail]

Science can never wipe out religion.

Done.

 

[JEDIYoda]

why would science want to wipe out organized religion?
This is one of those subjects that assumes that science is always right and organized religion is always wrong.
Yet there are many promenint scientist who attend church regularly or Mass and worship a God on a regular basis!!

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
I'm not arguing, just asking. My heart is open, sincerely. If God is real I want to believe. Right now, I don't.

You don't have to believe.

The desire to know, or at least understand, is a good part of the impetus to believe. Belief for many is a temporary suspension of disbelief here and there, a gathering of information, in a quest for greater understanding and a quest for meaning and purpose.

Belief and faith by definition are adopted frames of mind, temporary and changing. These get changed to conviction and knowledge if things go well.

Belief has a spiritual aspect and a logical aspect. God is simply too profound to prove or disprove with limited means. The desire for miraculous proofs is a misunderstanding of proof and a lack of spirituality.

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
1) How can I possibly begin to believe in something without belief? For instance, how can I believe in a supernatural savior that seems to be fictional?

Again, you don't have to believe.

The "savior" business IMO, is largely a marketing phenomenon designed to sell you on one particular religion for the benefit of its priests and community, etc. That's a bit harsh. I believe that savior concept is of some importance to seekers, but that it's misapplied by the masses and the priests who actually don't really understand it well, but have attached a great significance to it.

In your case, this is an apparent barrier to belief. Where it is a barrier to your own spirituality, you should not let yourself get hung up on it.

You might understand this savior business a bit better if you go deeper into different religions. You do not have to understand it to start. The marketing folks want to impress you with their books that their savior is where it's that. It's just that.

Is Jesus the savior of humanity? Quite possibly, literally. The world might have been much more savage and unpleasant without his message of love.

Would he have been taken quite as seriously and with the same sort of impact of compassion had he not been crucified? Probably not. So perhaps he did literally suffer on the cross for the benefit of humanity.

Do you need more than that to start? Of course.., but perhaps that'll help get over some barriers.

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
2) How can I accept a savior that seems to be fictional?

You don't have to; it's marketing, etc. If you believe that all but the Christians are essentially sub-human and not deserving of heaven despite leading saintly lives, then you need to understand Jesus better, and to develop a better heart.

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
3) Why should I believe in the Christian religion instead of other ones, each of which claims to be the one true religion?

This is one of the questions for our times. The beginning of the answer, obviously, is the attitude of taking this business of one true religion with a grain of salt; seeing it as chauvinism and marketing propaganda.

Mohammad for example was asked a form of this question (I'll paraphrase here and so also exemplify the loss of historical detail) -- were not the Jews or Christians given the word of God? His answer was essentially, yes, they received part of the word of God. But the word of God is infinite (something about if all the seas were ink and all the trees were pens, they wouldn't be enough, etc.), so not contained in any single religion or even the collection of all religions to date.

If you look further, you'll see similarities in other religions. Where you see significant contradictions, you can try to exercise discrimination -- is it because of the time of the giving of a particular religion? Is it a misunderstand or misinterpretation willful or accidental by the various translators, interpreters or priests? Probably. For the most part these are very very old words. They have been twisted and expanded, etc., over time. The core may or may not still be present and pure, but the husk may very well not be what it once was.

You don't have to believe. You can live a good life as a strong atheist. You can live a bad life as a regular church attendee who satisfies superficial requirement without the underlying spirit. Which one do you really think would be better?

However, the point about "better" here stands without a dependence on belief -- rather, it is given independently. This is to say that you don't get to be a strong atheist and throw away everything that people by large call the good and still be able claim to have led a good life. Or the opposite, to have fulfilled every apparent requirement of a specific religion, but lived a full lie underneath and still claim to be good. Those are paths of self-delusion, madness and regret.

When Jesus said that he was the word beyond the existing words in the book, he was referring to this fact -- that there is truth that goes beyond the statement of the current religions. This applies to current Christianity as much as anything else.

We have words. We have words and words and words. The current world has no shortage of the words of God and others. With some effort one can easily go and round up the accepted classics and some gems even which aren't as generally well known and learn and interpret all of this and understand it much better.

Or you can try to have a good heart, lead a good life, and quiet your mind to try to better hear the living word of God. In that spirit, I'm going to shut up now.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: tealk
I have no comment to Scientology, you, your religion about aliens, are self suffient in what you are. No additional comment needed here. Good luck on Mars!

Read the book. I think you'll find it's a bit different than Scientology

 

[verndewd]

Originally posted by: Xdreamer
people have a psychological need to believe in somthing.. therefore religion will never die. You may get the cult of science tho

Christians should check themselves for codependance,and self victimization,I did I learned alot about faith and my beliefs in god.

Christians have thrown away the facts of existence,Evolution.

I am god come to collect on the ignorance my people have persued ;I am what you periceve as science,You study
The whole of existence as I BREATHE it into bieng;you see it yet you dont see it.

My own children disown the facts you uncover save for an elect few.You have found me in your science yet your ignorance blocks the definition.You will see me and wonder and throw away my bieng to suit the cold that serves logic.

You have known my ultimate glory in your world yet turned to numbers as god of what you have seen,It is numbers that will own you in the end,there your judgement has spoken through your own voice and become your peril.

You have seen me in my most intimate fashion as I breathe to you life.You witnessed the very speck of my breath and turned.So it must be as you turn so i must ,and your numbers become your powerless god.

You chose,I simply called. And I called all men in subtle and kind ways.Your logic has assumed it can know my time,and can predict my time.My time relies upon you and the nature of your interactions.i speak of times and a half times as it measures the time of man and it is not chronological,Times are the times of sentiment and courses of action taken by man in my stead.
You will not know my time,your actions will create it.As sodom and gomorrah created their time so do you.And what you create is near.You stray from me and run to a machine that is controlled by the enemy of all man and will in time bear its mark.Its time is near the harvest will fuel the growth of my glory.In it are all that choose,burned are all that chose not.

sons and daughters you are seeds of unfathomable worth,planted to grow within the scope of infinity;you cannot deny me and survive.Do you not realize how important every seed is?All you learn, in your own way adds to the glory like a mans child who does him great justice in learning and action,yet for your fathers is the glory given and not to all mens father,myself. While you are yet a seed you contend it is right to rebuke that which planted you,will you so callously throw your inheritance to the flames,as chaff is to wheat?
Will your profound ignorance limit your own infinity? Will you in the end chose an end?When things beyond the science of man await?I created you in my image and your science is based on the study of me and yourselves;This is but a speck in what I am and you could be.

I have called you ;will you answer me?

Thats what god says.The chaff must be burned,all who have not realized cannot survive infinity.

My great great grandmother was a prophetess for the mormon church,50 years ago she said something that has finally come to pass.

enjoy it while it lasts friends,make a good go on all of it.Let us be friends till the end,and at the end we must part enemies.until then we may as well enjoy each other.

BTW her gene in me predicted something very bad at the election of bush and then 9/11 happened.I have witnesses to my prediction.They dont believe in god either.At least they didnt.
And the fat lady aint sung yet.9/11 was a speck.For anyone who is mormon that can access her prophesies,her name was eva nielsen.

 

[verndewd]

I remember 9/11, I wasnt surprised ay all. My employers were 11 blocks away when it happened.I said when they returned"Its amazing how some people think nothing bad will transpire in their life time" to a fellow employee while watching my boss out of the corner of my eye.
LMAO should have seen how wide her pretty blues became.I had told them prior to their departure that something bad would happen during this presidency.When I came off with the smart azz comment I knew she'd remembered what I said.

You number lovers cant handle the ultimate truth,as your god is an equation.Theres alot more alot more here girls.You dont need to know we dont share the same master.God tells his children ahead of time so that they will be prepared.Lmao.

No boyscouts in science.No room for them.

I spoke to a paid psychic a few months later,and she said right off the bat "you knew about 9/11 before it happened" I replied"maybe I knew a little".I was calling her about an unrequited love issue lmao........

Put your boots on ladies and get your gloves ready.were a stones throw from some serious ******.It all depend on what man does he can delay it.

CALL TO ALL BELIEVERS
dont cast the pearls before swine,The doctrines are for you ;I speak to you about the times in your hearts,tell them my message and let them ridicule you.few of you will help to correct their paths and a time nears when the total will be definite and beyond correction.

Take their observations of me and make them whole:I am your heart I speak to you personally,what you learn from them is what i am yet it is more for you.to think god needs no scientific minds is to accuse god of bieng like mans pastors,and let me assure you this could not be anymore erroneous.
Science will return to me,I AM the alpha and omega.And all those of science and god will be my scientists,one with me in creation,and not counted among the meek.Mans science is like a burden unto him a weight that holds him down for his own good.You have shown me your science and it has desecrated the sanctuary i made for you,you that do not believe offer me nothing but contempt as you propose to think that this planes science can undo my glory or take it over.
You have seen me and made yourselves blind,and you will know me before I come for what is mine,I am your persuit,I am beyond your equations;let me tell you that your equations define your existence and not anything remotely close to the whole of what I am .
You could have more yet you choose less.You will never touch my infinity without belief.

 

[3NF]

Verndewd - I have no idea what you are trying to say. Ease up on the drugs and alcohol, and use a space between sentences

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: verndewd
I remember 9/11, I wasnt surprised ay all. My employers were 11 blocks away when it happened.I said when they returned"Its amazing how some people think nothing bad will transpire in their life time" to a fellow employee while watching my boss out of the corner of my eye.
LMAO should have seen how wide her pretty blues became.I had told them prior to their departure that something bad would happen during this presidency.When I came off with the smart azz comment I knew she'd remembered what I said.

You number lovers cant handle the ultimate truth,as your god is an equation.Theres alot more alot more here girls.You dont need to know we dont share the same master.God tells his children ahead of time so that they will be prepared.Lmao.

No boyscouts in science.No room for them.

I spoke to a paid psychic a few months later,and she said right off the bat "you knew about 9/11 before it happened" I replied"maybe I knew a little".I was calling her about an unrequited love issue lmao........

Put your boots on ladies and get your gloves ready.were a stones throw from some serious ******.It all depend on what man does he can delay it.

Have another beer :beer:

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Crono
Science has never proven anything wrong that is written in the Bible.

I don't know...science has yet to observe asexual reproduction occuring within mammals, or vertebrates...or multicellular organisms for that matter (if you discount plant propagation, which is really cloning...)

Where do you find asexual reproduction in the Bible?

Define virgin birth for me Then hit yourself on the head.

Kamodo Dragon?

 

[verndewd]

just a few quotes from a book I am reading.

 

[verndewd]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: verndewd
I remember 9/11, I wasnt surprised ay all. My employers were 11 blocks away when it happened.I said when they returned"Its amazing how some people think nothing bad will transpire in their life time" to a fellow employee while watching my boss out of the corner of my eye.
LMAO should have seen how wide her pretty blues became.I had told them prior to their departure that something bad would happen during this presidency.When I came off with the smart azz comment I knew she'd remembered what I said.

You number lovers cant handle the ultimate truth,as your god is an equation.Theres alot more alot more here girls.You dont need to know we dont share the same master.God tells his children ahead of time so that they will be prepared.Lmao.

No boyscouts in science.No room for them.

I spoke to a paid psychic a few months later,and she said right off the bat "you knew about 9/11 before it happened" I replied"maybe I knew a little".I was calling her about an unrequited love issue lmao........

Put your boots on ladies and get your gloves ready.were a stones throw from some serious ******.It all depend on what man does he can delay it.

Have another beer :beer:

Just go back to sleep,this doesnt concern you. I wish to address those who are awake ,and you are not. Awakened souls have seen god and accepted him or denied him. Its safer that you sleep. seriously.

An awakened soul will do 1 of 2 things;Question my quotes and compare them to text;while feeling his own words coming out.
or debate each statement point for point as thats what it takes for denial of god.His attempt would be to marr the charachter of my self to prove that his view is superior.

So where are the awakened ones? Got any here? yall talk a good game,whos awake?
If you are you know it.we can put this war to words.

I am awake and i believe in god. You pretenders with your regurgitated classroom garbage need to step aside.I want to see whos awake and has denied god; Most of you arent even close.

 

[RedArmy]

Wow, I've watched this topic and can't believe it's gone up to 22 pages. I haven't read nearly all the pages of it but I can guess that it's just people fighting back and forth over something that'll never change anyways.

Also, wtf verndewd, you're just asking for trouble posting that kind of stuff. I'm guessing that's what you want but I'd watch where you take it. Making insidious statements and trying to goad other people doesn't usually pan out.

Anyways, I offer my quote to this thread since I wouldn't be able to say it any better:

"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can?t be taken on its own merits."

Edit: 23 pages.

 

[verndewd]

Fair enough Red Army; And exactly correct in the goading assumption.What some folks Dont seem to understand is the fact that some people find styrength and insight in faith.

Its not like the view has a record of respect here; Faith is only a cop out if you use it as one.

Some of us have witnessed things beyond science and of totally sober mind;The persuit of these radically unsensible things actually can be a consistent payoff.

You dont get there from the no faith zone,You will never even smell it.

My apologies for goading;Faith is not a blind mans persuit and those who are awake in it are very powerful as inner power goes.Whats more,,,,, I wont tell you,,,,,,Its real.the whole thing is real.

I do not think man has an advanced view that is more appropriate to the times in faith.But I dont think thats the point either;although its good to have higher minds as well.

I think lack of faith stems from spiritual irresponsibility,selfishness,rebeliousness,ETC. and can be considered a cop out.

Ultimately who cares;If the truth is that god exists,alot of so called christians may get tossed to the furnace as well.

so who cares if I become eternal and you dont?or vis versa? We as a race do the best we can nearly every man has been introduced to god. choose or choose not.I am hoping on eternity. Self discipline is a pain in the azz sometimes.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: verndewd
just a few quotes from a book I am reading.

What book is that?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: verndewd

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: verndewd
I remember 9/11, I wasnt surprised ay all. My employers were 11 blocks away when it happened.I said when they returned"Its amazing how some people think nothing bad will transpire in their life time" to a fellow employee while watching my boss out of the corner of my eye.
LMAO should have seen how wide her pretty blues became.I had told them prior to their departure that something bad would happen during this presidency.When I came off with the smart azz comment I knew she'd remembered what I said.

You number lovers cant handle the ultimate truth,as your god is an equation.Theres alot more alot more here girls.You dont need to know we dont share the same master.God tells his children ahead of time so that they will be prepared.Lmao.

No boyscouts in science.No room for them.

I spoke to a paid psychic a few months later,and she said right off the bat "you knew about 9/11 before it happened" I replied"maybe I knew a little".I was calling her about an unrequited love issue lmao........

Put your boots on ladies and get your gloves ready.were a stones throw from some serious ******.It all depend on what man does he can delay it.

Have another beer :beer:

Just go back to sleep,this doesnt concern you. I wish to address those who are awake ,and you are not. Awakened souls have seen god and accepted him or denied him. Its safer that you sleep. seriously.

An awakened soul will do 1 of 2 things;Question my quotes and compare them to text;while feeling his own words coming out.
or debate each statement point for point as thats what it takes for denial of god.His attempt would be to marr the charachter of my self to prove that his view is superior.

So where are the awakened ones? Got any here? yall talk a good game,whos awake?
If you are you know it.we can put this war to words.

I am awake and i believe in god. You pretenders with your regurgitated classroom garbage need to step aside.I want to see whos awake and has denied god; Most of you arent even close.

Apparently I wasn't the only one who couldn't figure out what you were saying.

 

[verndewd]

I am playing the devils advocate of the middle ground.Christianity supposes it can force dogma upon the masses through fear And that runs against the grain of their own doctrines.

It says specifically that you should not seek to convert people,The underlying motives for such forcefullness arent good at all. It means a person has come to faith by fear alone; and that is not the purpose of faith.

While it is sad that we manifest such contentions ,and ill feelings about faith it also speaks volumes about the minds involved in both sides of the argument.

Faith is not a self fulfilling mechanism,but you wouldnt know unless you looked; and that demands reason. I dont promote that any man ascribe to a religion as even the bible referrs to religiosity as abhored. I say if it suits you to look ,look in a way that suits you.

And the bible joins me in that timothy says "persevere in YOUR life and YOUR doctrine..."
We were not meant to be the cattle of men who do not enter into the chambers we were meant to enter. We each have a doctrine to add yet men find it important to cling to their self worship and claim its gods worship as they seperate the body into pieces.

our ideas on god are all vastly different and it is mentioned in the bible that when you are with others of faith that you pay attention to your ways and theirs; as your ways may be sensible to you but bring a brother to sin .

There is no argument needed from science and religion; Both should learn from the other. Man has had many teachers for philosophy and science ,yet science at least is disciplined in its fact finding.

in my honest opinion religious thinkers should all think as scientists do; I never read a word of revelation without severe skepticism. There is no church on the land who will tell you what the book actually means ,without sounding insane.

As all books of prophecy sound insane.case in point; Nostradamus.

In the end you ,I,we are all free to do as we wish;There is no reason to not find common interest ,regardless of belief. Jesus sat with tax collectors, he taught about things that were in open rebellion to the sanhedrin, The highewst jewish law in the land at the time.

Theres alot more to god than some blind mans delusions of religion bieng some kind of answer. We are the only answer , we create the solutions ;Those of faith gain inspiration and it is not meant that a man force upon the world his one view over others.

This is where the process of science could help men of faith; Unfalsification in faith is crucial. The boreans were held in high regard for their approach which was like this process.

You can never come to faith by my force and manipulation of your fears; You must see for yourself what is true for you. So yes I am accusing modern religion of emotional manipulation ,Even the words of the bible do that. Set an example and for those who choose to see and ask can hear you witness of god. SET AN EXAMPLE.

When I was living in a metropolitan area there were street pastors praying on the fear of men; I told them they were wrong; They would come to my circle and preach uselessly; because we were already ahead of them. And I would correct them saying "how do you show a man god in your manipulative words?" "Show them god in your ways and become as one with them in friendship and you will fulfill the word"

They never took my advice that I know of. I dont blame folk for staying away from religion. Should they find faith in their observation I give them praise.

I believe but I am as much a sinner as any,so my stone hits the ground ,not another man.This is my love for all walks of life. I see my sin first. So yours and your trials are kin to me ,believer or non believer.

If you find reason for faith , find your own reason so that it will be of YOUR life and conviction ,and not anothers. Dont sacrifice your own message to the herdmen of cattle and live their doctrine and faith. If you can stand on your own , do so.

And should you choose the cold of science; so be it. It is simply that you have been introduced and declined faith. You are free in that choice.

 

[verndewd]

Originally posted by: 3NF

Originally posted by: verndewd
just a few quotes from a book I am reading.

What book is that?

since I was playing devils advocate i decline to mention the book,or how much of it i perverted to manipulate both sides of the argument. My final points are above. And weigh against both and niether ; Myself included.

 

[tealk]

Sounds like garbage.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: verndewd

Originally posted by: Xdreamer
people have a psychological need to believe in somthing.. therefore religion will never die. You may get the cult of science tho

Christians should check themselves for codependance,and self victimization,I did I learned alot about faith and my beliefs in god.

Christians have thrown away the facts of existence,Evolution.

I am god come to collect on the ignorance my people have persued ;I am what you periceve as science,You study
The whole of existence as I BREATHE it into bieng;you see it yet you dont see it.

My own children disown the facts you uncover save for an elect few.You have found me in your science yet your ignorance blocks the definition.You will see me and wonder and throw away my bieng to suit the cold that serves logic.

You have known my ultimate glory in your world yet turned to numbers as god of what you have seen,It is numbers that will own you in the end,there your judgement has spoken through your own voice and become your peril.

You have seen me in my most intimate fashion as I breathe to you life.You witnessed the very speck of my breath and turned.So it must be as you turn so i must ,and your numbers become your powerless god.

You chose,I simply called. And I called all men in subtle and kind ways.Your logic has assumed it can know my time,and can predict my time.My time relies upon you and the nature of your interactions.i speak of times and a half times as it measures the time of man and it is not chronological,Times are the times of sentiment and courses of action taken by man in my stead.
You will not know my time,your actions will create it.As sodom and gomorrah created their time so do you.And what you create is near.You stray from me and run to a machine that is controlled by the enemy of all man and will in time bear its mark.Its time is near the harvest will fuel the growth of my glory.In it are all that choose,burned are all that chose not.

sons and daughters you are seeds of unfathomable worth,planted to grow within the scope of infinity;you cannot deny me and survive.Do you not realize how important every seed is?All you learn, in your own way adds to the glory like a mans child who does him great justice in learning and action,yet for your fathers is the glory given and not to all mens father,myself. While you are yet a seed you contend it is right to rebuke that which planted you,will you so callously throw your inheritance to the flames,as chaff is to wheat?
Will your profound ignorance limit your own infinity? Will you in the end chose an end?When things beyond the science of man await?I created you in my image and your science is based on the study of me and yourselves;This is but a speck in what I am and you could be.

I have called you ;will you answer me?

Thats what god says.The chaff must be burned,all who have not realized cannot survive infinity.

My great great grandmother was a prophetess for the mormon church,50 years ago she said something that has finally come to pass.

enjoy it while it lasts friends,make a good go on all of it.Let us be friends till the end,and at the end we must part enemies.until then we may as well enjoy each other.

BTW her gene in me predicted something very bad at the election of bush and then 9/11 happened.I have witnesses to my prediction.They dont believe in god either.At least they didnt.
And the fat lady aint sung yet.9/11 was a speck.For anyone who is mormon that can access her prophesies,her name was eva nielsen.

Again...Verndewd: BC Hydro + internet forum posting does not mix well

 

[verndewd]

Zin ,buddy,pal; I am high on the spirit.If you want to call the spirit JD or BC you may be correct ,or you may be incorrect as well. God made it all. We need to be responsible in our use of it

I dont know if anyone has read the book of Thomas ,But thats one seriously intriguing set of ideas. Its been currupted through time thos ,to diminish its use. There are mysoginistic themes in it that are contradictory to other themes within the writing,

Also many people dont know that the swastica was first a hindu symbol and mysticism was aided in its formulation for jews by a hindu sage.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 3NF's sig
The Gospel according to 3NF
3NF 1:1 "All life on this planet was gentically engineered by aliens."
3NF 1:2 "Goto 1:1"

God is an alien