Will the $49 Win 7 "upgrade" work on a new HDD?

[ajskydiver]

Here's a quick bit from Harold Wong's latest blog:

"7. The requirements for using the Windows 7 Upgrade Media seems to not be fully documented and publicized. I received emails from folks who have said a Microsoft representative had told them that an activated copy of Windows must already be installed onto the computer. I had stated that the original media would be required. Since I cannot get a solid answer internally at this point, I?m going to take the egg on my face and say that I may be wrong in my previous statement. I am not sure yet. Since I don?t have access to the Upgrade Media myself, I cannot test it to know for sure so I am waiting for the Windows 7 Team to post an update to their blog that states all the requirements. Just like the rest of you, I will have to wait for further ?official? news. I am very sorry for jumping the gun on this one and stating what I heard were the requirements for using the Upgrade Media."

You'd think some member of the Windows 7 Team would just clarify this...maybe they still haven't officially finalized their decision due to all the questions/complaining of their customers.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
A policy of only allowing upgrades on computers with a pre-installed prior OS is untenable over more than one generationn of OS.

It's not supposed to be. A one-time upgrade is what they are trying to implement.

For example: People like me whose Windows licenses are based an original Windows 3.11 Full Retail install from 1993 ...

...are extremely rare. Most people have preinstalled licenses of a much more recent vintage and most upgrades are for those types of installations. And actually, Microsoft really doesn't care about inconveniencing "people like you". What Microsoft is out to do is generate revenue by getting everyone who is running XP or earlier to something newer. That is its priority.

Having PC enthusiasts upset over complicated, time-consuming upgrades and having "average" PC owners upset over having to buy a pricey Full Retail license to get Windows back onto a replacment hard drive is NOT the way to sell OSes.

"Enthusiasts" who build their own machines are an extremely small market segment that really doesn't enter into plans like this and "average" PC owners do not replace primary disks and reinstall the OS.

I'm not saying that the "upgrade" license might not disappear ... just not for the reasons you cite.

 

[NicColt]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
For example: People like me whose Windows licenses are based an original Windows 3.11 Full Retail install from 1993 would not accept having to re-install five generations of OS just to put Windows 7 on an empty hard drive.

I'm not sure you understand...

What W7 is doing is actually fixing this. An upgrade is an upgrade. Once you Upgrade W7 over an existing and activated installation of Vista, XP or Win2K you do not ever need to have that previous OS installed again nor will you ever need the older OS media ever again. Once you Upgrade with W7 over Vista, XP or W2K you can chuck the physical media disk. You may need to keep your Key but all the previous physical media will now be useless.

If you have anything other than Vista, XP or Win2K, the W7 Upgrade is not an option so anything between win 3.1 and Win98 is not an approved upgrade path.

Let's pretend that you installed.

Installed Full version of Windows for Workgroups
Upgraded to Windows 95
Upgraded to NT Workstation
Upgraded to Windows 98
Upgraded to Windows 2000 (approved for Windows 7 Upgrade, clean install only)
Upgraded to Windows XP (approved for Windows 7 Upgrade, clean install only)
Upgraded to Windows Vista (approved for Windows 7 Upgrade)
Upgraded to Windows 7

Basically in one way or another the original full version key from Windows for Workgroups was migrated to Win95 then to NT Workstation then to Win98 then to Win2K then to XP then to Vista and now onto W7.

But now the difference is that if you upgrade to Windows 7 all of the information keys from previous installs will be migrated into a master W7 Key. That master key will now be held onto Microsoft's WGA servers. You can now take the media from all of those previous OS and chuck them into the garbage. The WGA servers will now contain the MASTER key for all your upgrades. The physical media will no longer be necessary.

Once that is done and you then get a new HDD or new computer and take your Windows 7 Upgrade disk and do a custom install you will have 30 days to goto the WGA servers where it will recognize your Windows 7 Upgrade Master Key and proceed with the authentication of your W7.

Once you migrate all those keys into one master W7 key, your Windows 7 Upgrade disk will now work as if you have a full version and will NOT necessitate the pre-installation or activation of a prior OS.

However, once you migrate your Win2K, XP and Vista upgrade keys into your master W7 Key, WGA will de-activate those keys and you will no longer be able to authenticate those previous operating systems.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: Athena
"Enthusiasts" who build their own machines are an extremely small market segment that really doesn't enter into plans like this and "average" PC owners do not replace primary disks and reinstall the OS.

I'm not disagreeing about the small market for "Enthusiasts". However, enthuiasts ARE very important in selling a new OS. It's not the "normal" user who named Vista a "failure". Look at the "Mojave Experiment". The average person who bought a new Vista PC at Best Buy had no problems with Vista.

Originally posted by: NicColt
However, once you migrate your Win2K, XP and Vista upgrade keys into your master W7 Key, WGA will de-activate those keys and you will no longer be able to authenticate those previous operating systems.

How does that work when you decide to move the "Upgrade" license to a different PC? Now all your previous licenses have been deactivated. You call up MS and re-Activate five or six old Keys?

My point is: This is a lot of added complication to a system that could be extremely simple. Drop the cost of the OS to fifty bucks and make all copies of the OS "Full licenses". No, this won't happen with the "business" versions of Windows. MS will maintain higher prices on these and will push volume licensing. But I think consumer OSes will have to go this way.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: ajskydiver
Here's a quick bit from Harold Wong's latest blog:

Umm... I posted that in this same thread the other day. The most important part of his post was where he admits that he has no direct knowlege about what is supposed to happen.

You'd think some member of the Windows 7 Team would just clarify this...maybe they still haven't officially finalized their decision due to all the questions/complaining of their customers.

There is no "decision" to be made at this point -- setup in the RTM version of Windows 7 already has the hooks to implement whatever was decided months ago. The only lingering issues might be working out the kinks at the activation server to effect the merging that NicColt discussed.

Upgrade licenses won't be available until October so there is no economic risk associated with postponing the posting of details and no benefit at all to saying anything before they are sure that it will work exactly according to the specifications.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: Athena
There is no "decision" to be made at this point -- setup in the RTM version of Windows 7 already has the hooks to implement whatever was decided months ago. The only lingering issues might be working out the kinks at the activation server to effect the merging that NicColt discussed.

Agreed. The decision should have been made and tested long ago. It's pretty weird that MS seems to be intentionally withholding this information.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: NicColt
[Once that is done and you then get a new HDD or new computer and take your Windows 7 Upgrade disk and do a custom install you will have 30 days to goto the WGA servers where it will recognize your Windows 7 Upgrade Master Key and proceed with the authentication of your W7.

Now we get to the nub of the issue: How do they ensure that there is only one machine with that master key in operation.

 

[NicColt]

ComputerWorld did a bit on it here.

http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?...-67EA-E4E20C8E604E7C7D

"And if you're upgrading from XP to Windows 7, no matter how you acquired the license for XP, the activation key on the XP CD will probably not work. (During the upgrade, the PC sends a key-cancellation request to Microsoft's servers to nullify the XP activation/product key and link the machine to the new Windows 7 key.)"


So everything I'm reading is pointing to this type of upgrade. The problem is that if you want to return to XP your old XP CD and Key won't work you will need to do some sort of downgrade to XP from the W7 install.

I think all of this will become very clear once the RTM really does hit.

 

[NicColt]

I've just read that the W7 Upgrade will come with an option to install XP but with the W7 Master Key.

If you have W7 Upgrade and do an install over your existing XP it will de-activate that key.
However you will then be able to do a custom install with the W7 disk to install XP with the W7 Key. In other words W7 comes with a license to run W7 and XP.

I know it seems confusing but it's all about licensing. You can skip all that and just get the full retail version.


Basically what all this comes down to is this. A W7 Upgrade install over an previously activated Vista, XP or Win2K will migrate your keys into a master W7 key but you only need to do this once and the previous OS media will become obsolete, and with this the W7 Upgrade disk you will also be able to re-install XP if you wish but not both at the same time. It's either W7 or XP.

I understand why MS didn't fully release this info because it confuses some to hell but when you think about it, it's quite ingenious.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: NicColt
I think all of this will become very clear once the RTM really does hit.

It's interesting to speculate. The main thing that has bothered me is when folks change speculation into "fact". No, I'm not saying that is happening in this discussion.

I've long wondered if MS would ever try to "read" old Keys and keep them in an "Activation History Databae", either the one that's kept on the PC or on Microsoft's online Activation site. But it's struck me as being impractical.

What I think will kill all this is that, since over 90% of all new PCs COME with an OS pre-installed, that means that there's a 90% chance that any PC you are trying to upgrade already has a valid OS license. Why introduce added cost and hassle to the User to "catch" that other ten percent? They are legitimate purchasers with a legitimate new W7 disk and a legitimate license Key. Just let them install the damn software and not have to dig up previous OS install disks and license Keys.

And the whole "key cancellation" routine is a waste. Remember that most Windows licenses are BIOS-linked OEM versions, and they all have the same "Key". You can't cancel it, and even if you did, it wouldn't make any difference. "Key Cancellation" will only punish those who build their own PCs. And those are the people who advise others on purchases. You want them to say, "Oh, yeah. Get Windows 7. It's easy to install and works great!". You don't want them to say, "Windows 7? It's a pain to install. Stick with XP."

As much as (I'm sure) we all hate MS' Activation system, it works reasonably well as-is. If I was Microsoft, I'd take the money needed to develop a new "Upgrade Activation System" and put it into improving the reliability and effectiveness of the current Activation system.

 

[NicColt]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
I've long wondered if MS would ever try to "read" old Keys and keep them in an "Activation History Databae", either the one that's kept on the PC or on Microsoft's online Activation site. But it's struck me as being impractical.

What I think will kill all this is that, since over 90% of all new PCs COME with an OS pre-installed, that means that there's a 90% chance that any PC you are trying to upgrade already has a valid OS license. Why introduce added cost and hassle to the User to "catch" that other ten percent? They are legitimate purchasers with a legitimate new W7 disk and a legitimate license Key. Just let them install the damn software and not have to dig up previous OS install disks and license Keys.

And the whole "key cancellation" routine is a waste. Remember that most Windows licenses are BIOS-linked OEM versions, and they all have the same "Key". You can't cancel it, and even if you did, it wouldn't make any difference. "Key Cancellation" will only punish those who build their own PCs. And those are the people who advise others on purchases. You want them to say, "Oh, yeah. Get Windows 7. It's easy to install and works great!". You don't want them to say, "Windows 7? It's a pain to install. Stick with XP."

As much as (I'm sure) we all hate MS' Activation system, it works reasonably well as-is. If I was Microsoft, I'd take the money needed to develop a new "Upgrade Activation System" and put it into improving the reliability and effectiveness of the current Activation system.

Please do not think that I claim to know anything about this, I just post my opinions from the numerous posts that I have read on the issue and simply offer a humble compilation of what I have read.

On your first point, MS will not read Old Keys nor keep them. That's why W7 Upgrade will require a previous activated OS installed. However it will only de-activate XP Vista and maybe Win2K but I'm not sure about Win2K.

I assume it will go like this.

1 - install W7U - do you have a pre-activated Win2K, XP or Vista if yes go and do the "Upgrade"
Activate the W7U Key as a full blown retail key, keep that key on the WGA servers and de-activate the XP or Vista Key that is has upgraded from.

Or

2 - install W7U - do you have a pre-activated Win2K, XP or Vista if no then W7 can only do a Custom Install with 30 days for activation.
a) Once you run the activation - Do you have a master migrated key with WGA servers, if Yes then full authentication.
b) Once you run the activation - Do you have a master migrated key with WGA servers, if No then run System Anytime Upgrade to buy license.

On your second point, the W7 Full retail version will install anywhere and won't be a hassle. Windows 7 Upgrade is just that, an Upgrade with a requirement that the Upgrade be installed over an existing and activated OS. No matter how you slice or dice it, the first time you install W7 Upgrade it will only install over a pre-installed pre-activated system, that's the requirement. But you would only have to do this once. If you want to go back to XP it will have an XP mode or you can re-install a full XP system from the W7 Upgrade disk but with that disk's Key. You will be able to run a full version of XP or W7 but only one activated OS at a time.

All that MS is saying with W7U is that if you use this over an existing XP or Vista license, you cannot use those keys in another computer install. If you want to keep your prior XP or Vista license then buy the full retail version. But what MS is also saying is that if you do migrate those keys I will give you a full blow retail version of W7.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: NicColt
2) The W7 Upgrade can / will only be installed on a pre-activated install. Either Vista, XP or W2K must all have been run through WGA once. For Vista and XP WGA is done at the time of install and you have 30 days to activate. For W2K the WGA is only activated through IE Updates.

Regardless of what MS does this time, I believe MS is going to abandon the whole "Upgrade Licensing" concept eventually because the model is unsustainable. A policy of only allowing upgrades on computers with a pre-installed prior OS is untenable over more than one generationn of OS.

For example: People like me whose Windows licenses are based an original Windows 3.11 Full Retail install from 1993 would not accept having to re-install five generations of OS just to put Windows 7 on an empty hard drive.

Microsoft will drop the entire "Upgrade" concept and will drop the price of the OS. It makes sense. It will mimimize MS' support costs, mimimize the cost of maintaining and owning MS operating systems, and will greatly improve customer satisfaction. Having PC enthusiasts upset over complicated, time-consuming upgrades and having "average" PC owners upset over having to buy a pricey Full Retail license to get Windows back onto a replacment hard drive is NOT the way to sell OSes.

Oh, if that were only true. But MS is a greedy SOB, they'll never drop the price of windows.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: NicColt
ComputerWorld did a bit on it here.

http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?...-67EA-E4E20C8E604E7C7D

"And if you're upgrading from XP to Windows 7, no matter how you acquired the license for XP, the activation key on the XP CD will probably not work. (During the upgrade, the PC sends a key-cancellation request to Microsoft's servers to nullify the XP activation/product key and link the machine to the new Windows 7 key.)"


So everything I'm reading is pointing to this type of upgrade. The problem is that if you want to return to XP your old XP CD and Key won't work you will need to do some sort of downgrade to XP from the W7 install.

I think all of this will become very clear once the RTM really does hit.

I think that this is a giant clusterf**k from MS.

What happens if you don't want to run Win7, and want to re-install your old copy of XP. Are they saying that this is no longer possible? What about installing two copies of XP onto seperate partitions on the same hardware, and then upgrading one of those partitions to Win7. Are they saying that that wont work either?
'
Lastly, what happens to the OEM keys that are slipstreamed into an XP re-install DVD? They activate using SLP, but they have an embedded XP product key just like any XP install (retrievable using Magic Jellybean). Those keys cannot be used for internet or phone activation, but they are used across a wide swath of OEM machines.

I assume that the Win7 installer or MS's WGA servers are smart enough to know those widely-used keys, and wont deactivate them based on a single machine having upgraded to Win7. Otherwise, the first person with a dell that upgrades to win7, will cause all other dell users to have an invalid (according to WGA) OS.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
What happens if you don't want to run Win7, and want to re-install your old copy of XP. Are they saying that this is no longer possible? What about installing two copies of XP onto seperate partitions on the same hardware, and then upgrading one of those partitions to Win7. Are they saying that that wont work either?

As I understand it, consumers will be able to get a downgrade key by telephone. For the second scenario though, you would need a full retail Windows 7 license -- your Windows XP license is either upgraded or it isn't, it can't be both.

 

[Raduque]

How about Windows 7 RC? I bought 3 W7 Upgrades because you can upgrade the RC to final using the Upgrade license - what happens if I need to re-install on any of these computers? Do I have to now waste 3 of my 4 Vista Retail licenses?

 

[zod96]

All these conditions that Microsoft puts on W7 upgrades is why people will start turning to pirate copies. Why they couldn't just make it like before, where you are prompted to insert a disc from your previous OS then you could continue with your fresh install is beyond me. I'll be totally honest. If I am not able to install my W7 upgrade on a fresh hard with nothing on it, I will go the bit torrent route. I still paided $50 for the upgrade for Home Premium legit and when I install the bit torrent version which will allow me to do an install with a fresh hard drive I will install only the home premium version. But I'm not forking out $200 for the full version of W7 just to do a fresh install. And I know a lot of people that in the past would never consider going the bit torrent route, needless to say they are changing their minds.......Microsoft is just being plain greedy.....

 

[armstrda]

Originally posted by: zod96
All these conditions that Microsoft puts on W7 upgrades is why people will start turning to pirate copies. Why they couldn't just make it like before, where you are prompted to insert a disc from your previous OS then you could continue with your fresh install is beyond me. I'll be totally honest. If I am not able to install my W7 upgrade on a fresh hard with nothing on it, I will go the bit torrent route. I still paided $50 for the upgrade for Home Premium legit and when I install the bit torrent version which will allow me to do an install with a fresh hard drive I will install only the home premium version. But I'm not forking out $200 for the full version of W7 just to do a fresh install. And I know a lot of people that in the past would never consider going the bit torrent route, needless to say they are changing their minds.......Microsoft is just being plain greedy.....

Because there's no way to stop someone from using 1 old XP disc to be able to buy any number of W7 upgrades, and therefore never really pay for a full OS for those other installs beyond the first with the real disc.

 

[wgoldfarb]

Athena:

Based on what you know to date, here is my question:

- I own a full version of XP that I installed and activated on a new machine I built.
- I also own an upgrade version of Vista, but I never installed it anywhere.
- I recently installed Win 7 RC on the same hard disk as XP, but on a different partition, so right now I am dual booting my PC to either Win Xp or Win 7 RC.

My original plan was to do a complete switch to Win 7 upon its official release in October. My goal was to get a SSD and install Windows 7 on it. I do NOT want to have a dual boot with XP -- my current HDD will be used for data, and the new SDD will be a boot/application drive. So, by the time it is all said and done, I want to have Win 7 installed on the SDD drive, my current HDD will only be used for data, and XP will be nowhere on my system.

From your current understanding of how the upgrade process might work, will I be able to achieve this with an upgrade version of Windows 7? Technically I qualify for the upgrade, because I do own a full version of Windows XP. But since I want to install Win 7 on a new SSD, if the Win 7 installer is going to look for an activated XP on the same drive, it will not find it.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!


EDIT: Thinking a bit more about it, would I be able to do a fresh install and activation of my copy of XP or of the RC on the new SDD (Using the key I already have), and *then* install Win 7 upgrade on it?

 

[armstrda]

Originally posted by: wgoldfarb
Athena:

Based on what you know to date, here is my question:

- I own a full version of XP that I installed and activated on a new machine I built.
- I also own an upgrade version of Vista, but I never installed it anywhere.
- I recently installed Win 7 RC on the same hard disk as XP, but on a different partition, so right now I am dual booting my PC to either Win Xp or Win 7 RC.

My original plan was to do a complete switch to Win 7 upon its official release in October. My goal was to get a SSD and install Windows 7 on it. I do NOT want to have a dual boot with XP -- my current HDD will be used for data, and the new SDD will be a boot/application drive. So, by the time it is all said and done, I want to have Win 7 installed on the SDD drive, my current HDD will only be used for data, and XP will be nowhere on my system.

From your current understanding of how the upgrade process might work, will I be able to achieve this with an upgrade version of Windows 7? Technically I qualify for the upgrade, because I do own a full version of Windows XP. But since I want to install Win 7 on a new SSD, if the Win 7 installer is going to look for an activated XP on the same drive, it will not find it.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!


EDIT: Thinking a bit more about it, would I be able to do a fresh install and activation of my copy of XP or of the RC on the new SDD (Using the key I already have), and *then* install Win 7 upgrade on it?

You should be able to do it without reinstalling on the SSD now. Windows setup when launched should find your activated version of XP. Then when you get to the disk setup screen, just tell it you want to install on the SSD. Done!

 

[wgoldfarb]

armstrda,

Thanks for the info! I do have a follow up question: will the Win 7 installer automatically "deactivate" or "uninstall" my other Windows installations (XP and 7 RC)? I DO want this to happen, as I do NOT want to have a dual boot on my system after Win 7 is in place. I essentially just want Win 7 to take over so I can delete Win Xp and Win 7 RC from my system after Win 7 is successfully installed.

When I installed Win 7 RC it detected my XP installation and automatically modified the boot loader into a dual boot configuration (even though I don't recall explicitly asking for that to happen). Back then a dual boot was what I wanted because I wasn't yet ready to eliminate XP from my system, but once I get the final release of Win 7 I do want to completely switch over. Or will I have to then manually delete the Win Xp and 7 RC partitions, and then "fix" the boot loader using the Win 7 install disk repair utility?

 

[armstrda]

Not sure EXACTLY how it will work, but if it reads the validated XP copy before the HDD screen, there's no reason that you couldn't then blow that partition away at the HDD screen and then install to your SSD. However, if that partition needs to remain active, you will just have a temporary dual boot setup (win7 will automatically set this up - but make sure your SSD is your first HDD in your BIOS boot order) then after install is complete and you've register w7, delete the partition on the old drive. Then you will need to edit the boot info on W7 to get rid of the stale "Boot from previous version of Windows" option.

 

[wgoldfarb]

Got it -- thanks.

I guess the worst case scenario is what you mention: have a dual boot right after install, and then I can manually delete the old partitions to get a newly "clean" HDD, and "fix" the boot info.

Thanks again!

 

[NicColt]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
What happens if you don't want to run Win7, and want to re-install your old copy of XP. Are they saying that this is no longer possible? What about installing two copies of XP onto seperate partitions on the same hardware, and then upgrading one of those partitions to Win7. Are they saying that that wont work either?

VL I think that once you upgrade and migrate your XP key to the W7 key and once the WGA servers deactivates the XP key, you will be able to re-install XP with the W7 Key only and XP will also be on the W7 disk. The old XP key and media won't be valid anymore.

It's all about licensing, you can only have one XP or W7 activated at one time but not both. If you want two copies of XP or one XP and one W7 then you will need two licenses.

I agree with Athena that your Windows XP license is either upgraded or it isn't, it can't be both.

But there is give and take, like I said if you upgrade over an existing W2K, XP or Vista key then MS will convert your W7 Upgrade just like a full blown W7 Retail, meaning that you will no longer need the old W2K, XP or Vista key or Media to reinstall W7.

The only difference between W7 Upgrade and W7 Retail is that W7U will force you to migrate an existing key to a master key while W7R will create a new master key with no requirement for an existing key.

Here's what I think I need to do for my upgrade path. I want to keep my XP install on my present system, but I have pre-ordered W7 Upgrade for my new build. Since W7U will require an activated W2K, XP or Vista I will need to install my W2K Pro Retail that is not in use on my new build and just do one Windows Update to activate my W2KPro with the WGA servers. Once that's done I think that I can then do a W7 Upgrade custom install.

The advantage of that is that I'd rather deactivate and discard my W2K Pro Retail rather than my XP Pro retail that way I could still use both XP and W7.

I however still can't believe that W7 Upgrade will install over an WGA activated W2K system.

 

[NicColt]

Well there go my plans to upgrade from my Win2K Pro Retail.

According to this site
http://mossblog.allthingsd.com...es-the-official-chart/

Walter Mossberg asked Microsoft for a Windows 7 Upgrade chart which they provided.
http://mossblog.allthingsd.com...dows-upgrade-chart.png

and if you scroll down it says;
"To upgrade an earlier operating system than Windows XP (eg Windows 95 or Windows 2000) you will need to purchase a full license of Windows 7 and perform a custom installation."

However, if you go to Microsoft's site here;
http://store.microsoft.com/mic...Windows-7/category/102

"Running earlier versions? If you have Windows XP or Windows 2000, you can purchase Windows 7 Upgrade versions. But you must back up your files, clean install, and reinstall your applications."


Oh brother.

 

[totalnoob]

Quick question: After the upgrade version detects a valid installed XP license, and Windows 7 is fully installed and activated, can the upgrade disk be used to do a fresh install later? Does the "upgrade" key essentially become a RETAIL key that can be installed on a fresh HD later?