Will the real Colin Powel please stand up!! :)

[Pennstate]

Well. if we agree on that issue, then it'll make the second time that we agree on something.

 

[Pennstate]

What they did with that government died with them.

On the contrary, that's not true. There have been many changes of governments in many countries. One prevailing practice is to honor all treaties that the predecessor government signed and accept all debts of the predecessor government.

 

[etech]

Pennstate,

Can I use that in my argument to get the Italian government to pay for the Roman invasion of England?

 

[Pennstate]

Pennstate,

Can I use that in my argument to get the Italian government to pay for the Roman invasion of England?

THe Roman Empire is not Italy. The US government is the US government. Can I say that the US Constitution doesn't matter because the people in the government that wrote are now dead?

AS I have said, I do not agree with Affirmative Action in Principle. However, I support it for it practicallity. In other words, the net effect is more good than harm. I do propose that students from poor families should get preference. I mean if George W Bush can get into Yale because his dad is rich and famous, why can't we do the same for poor families. You see there's AA for the Rich and Famous also. Ever wonder why applications to all Ivy Leagues ask who your parents are?

 

[etech]

PennState
"There have been many changes of governments in many countries. One prevailing practice is to honor all treaties that the predecessor government signed and accept all debts of the predecessor government."


Same country, different government, by your logic they are still liable. My great great great grandfather would be so happy to hear that those Roman/Italians are finally going to pay for invading merry Olde England.

 

[Pennstate]

Same country, different government

I resecpectfully dissent that statement. AA will and should end in the future. Now is not the time.

 

[etech]

When will be the time to end AA Penn? 10 years from now?, 50, one hundred years?

The question should be is AA the best program to help people advance.

You can "dissent" that statement all you want, it is your logic that makes it viable.

 

[Pennstate]

I think a good indicator of when AA should end is when when minority test scores are on par witht he national average. WHen graduation rates is on par. If you've read my earlier post in this thread, I outlined some proposals in achieving such.

 

[etech]

Penn, I read your earlier post and agree with it.

I do have to ask one question.

What are the parents of the kids in these underachieving schools doing?
Why aren't they fighting the school board, the city and the state to force improvemtns? If I did not feel my kids were receiving an adequate education, I'd be yelling and screaming at every school board meeting.

 

[Pennstate]

etech, read Jonathan Kozol's "Amazing Grace" or "Savage Inequalities". You'll understand. These two books are fast read too. Not because they are simplistic, but because once you start reading it, you wouldn't want to stop. Answers to your questions are answered in great detail in these 2 books; especially Savage inequalities.

Amazon Link to Savage Inequalities: Children in America's Schools $11.20

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I think a good indicator of when AA should end is when when minority test scores are on par witht he national average. WHen graduation rates is on par.

Throughout most of my public education here in Berkeley, black and latino kids generally haven't performed at the same level as white and asian kids. Why? Because less was always expected of them. No one expected them to come to class on a regular basis, to pay attention, and to turn their work in. It's almost treated as a given that they won't. The beauty of all this is that the Berkeley Public School teachers and administrators aren't racist or anything like that. No, they are stupid white-guilt liberal dipsh!ts who feel like they owe something, so basically they don't hold those minority students accountable. They feel too guilty to come down on the ones who aren't performing at par, and after all, it's easier to blame it on lack of proper school funding.

Or there's also the possibility that this is intended. They want to keep minorities down, doom them to Government dependance, make them think they need programs like AA, and basically secure their vote for life.

 

[Pennstate]

black and latino kids generally haven't performed at the same level as white and asian kids. Why? Because less was always expected of them.

WHile that may be true for some individuals, studies have shown that the main factor is due to the sub-par quality of their secondary educations.

 

[Michael]

Brooks - I would like to point out that you have now posted that Native Americans in reservations are responsible for their destitution (have you read about the rape and abuse of the northern Indians that the government sponsors, religiously run boarding schools inflicted on Indians) and that Blacks gathering on street corners in the bad area of town (in Halifax, hell you don't know a bad area if you're using Halifax as an example) are demonic with intentions of doing physical harm to you because you are white.

And you wonder why Classy gets so pissed?

Russ - Amen. I don't think that Classy's anger is the solution, but I'll be damned if I'll just sit here and allow people to dismiss it.

Chess9 - I'm 1/2 Slavic. Slave comes from the Slavs. I'm not owed any reparations and neither are any many generations removed descendants of slaves in this country. Hell, the existing government warred with a rebellious government who wanted to perpetuate slavery and paid in blood for their freedom.

I do owe them whatever is in my power to insure that they have as equal a chance as everyone else gets. I do owe them my forgiveness for their righteous anger.

Michael

 

[XL]

All this BS over Collin. I have seen alot of racial BS in quite a few threads and most of it is about nothing. You people need to just take what people say as is and leave it at that.

<< You people >>

Hey ain't that what Ross Perot said at a NAACP convention here in Detroit during his run for President? I wonder if that was racist? Hmmm..... Don't want to keep the sh!t alive.

 

[chess9]

Reductio ad absurdem is a wonderful debating technique, but one full of peril. If someone wants to complain that their great-grandfather was a Cherokee Indian who was forced from his land, I think they should. I see that as a very serious issue, as do many of the Cherokee poeple. A little time in Cherokee, N.C. would enhance your understanding of that problem. I wouldn't make light of it. If you consider the degree of separation between you and the harm very great, and if you consider the harm small, I doubt you would conclude you were entitled to any reparations. But to compare the Irish, Germans, or even discrimination in America against Jews (which was and is much greater than the Irish ever endured and the Irish deserved it ), is like comparing a sidewalk puddle to the Pacific Ocean. Magnitude matters.

Japanese Americans, not your average whiners, managed to get a reparations bill through Congress for their illegal internment during WWII. Did everyone here oppose that bill? Does anyone here think we should take back the land we've &quot;given&quot; the American Indians?

Skoorb:

Pennstate answered correctly. Governments frequently recognize their transgressions and make amends. The government paid the Japanese, for instance. The taxes of Americans were not affected significantly. Of course, Canada has similar problems with it's Native Americans thanks to the colonialism of England and France.

Interestingly, the Republicans will be more than happy to raise the oil depletion allowance for millionaire oilmen next year, but will do everything they can to prevent AA from advancing. Giving a $25,000 a year job to a black secretary is wrong, but giving an oilman an extra $100,000 isn't?

Ignoring the harms we have caused blacks is a prescription for disaster. I remember the riots of the '60s. We have a practical problem that calls for a practical solution. This really has little to do with philosophy, politics or religion. Blacks are p*ssed off and justifiably so. The fact we refuse to address the problem raises the legitimate question whether we are actually deeper into racism than we comprehend. If we have helped the Indians and the Japanese, why can't we help the blacks? Do you think they didn't notice?

Russ:

You missed the post of LooseCaboose.

Edit: &quot;libberish&quot;!? ROTFLMAO! Who came up with that, Limbaugh? Too funny, but, of course, not true.

Pennstate:

You made many fine arguments while I was sleeping (been sick). I agree that education is often the path to enlightenment. On the other hand, for some people learning can be a stumbling block placed in front of compassion.

To iterate, I hope Colin Powell does a great job and I wish him well. His selection by Bush is a wonderful sign. Let's hope he never forgets where he came from AND does something about it.

 

[StageLeft]

chess9

I agree that pushing the problem aside is a recipe for disaster and unfair to the minorities. I really just don't like AA, however. I do agree that something better - much better than AA - can be done to help the minorities. More money for housing and education in poverty stricken communities (minority and other) is probably the best way to help the situation out, because really thats the problem. I just think that AA is an inadequate patch for a great problem, a problem of poverty. With better housing, schooling, social programs it opens up so many doors to minorities - far more doors than AA could ever hope to open.

I suppose I say that I don't want to be held to blame directly and I don't, but that doesn't mean I would be unwilling to pay higher taxes to aid in the pursuit of what I mentioned above. I'd love to live in a society where there are few less people scraping by even if it costs me a bit. Eventually the economy would be so much better and a stronger nation that my investment would come back to be 10 fold if I look at only the economics of it, not that getting money back would be my primary motivator.

 

[chess9]

Skoorb:

What I like about AA is it gives someone a JOB. A job for some people is a big step up the ladder. It gives them an opportunity to rent an apartment where they want to live, not in Section 8 housing in the middle of a ghetto. The other remedies you mention are also necessary for some people who can't work.

Yes, this is an intractable social problem, made somewhat better by a strong economy, but greatly aggravated during downturns. I don't see this as the lynchpin of any ideology, but simply a question of how to solve a problem without exacerbating it. The Republicans tend to ignore these problems, which, as I said, is a prescription for disaster.

Your race relation problems in Canada aren't as severe as ours are they?

 

[StageLeft]

I certainly don't get the impression our race relation problems are as bad - as somebody mentioned below in Halifax I think the biggest thing we hear on the news is of a local highschool where race fights often break out. I'm not sure how the problems are in larger cities, but I'd say the problems aren't as bad...I would guess because minorities make up a smaller percentage of the population, or perhaps asians make up a greater percentage of the minorities and many asians who immigrate are financially stable from the get go.

 

[Michael]

Brooks - the real difference is poverty. Canada has such a huge safety net that even the most poor are better off than in the US. The unemployment insurance is also broader and easier to qualify for. That actually encourages people to work at least 20 weeks every years and once you get a job you tend to stay at it.

The total % of minorities is smaller and the immigration policy of letting more people in if they have money has certainly helped.

Montreal (where I grew up) has always had a low level of problems, but nothing like what I've seen in the US. I also noted that there is less segregation as to where people live. The suburb that I grew up in had many different races all living on the same block and my elementry school (I went to a private high school but my friends that went to the public school were just as diverse) was pretty diverse.

Canada still does have some race problems and racism is alive and well there.

Michael

 

[reitz]

<< What I like about AA is it gives someone a JOB. A job for some people is a big step up the ladder. It gives them an opportunity to rent an apartment where they want to live, not in Section 8 housing in the middle of a ghetto. The other remedies you mention are also necessary for some people who can't work. >>

chess9,

What I don't like about AA is that it gives the wrong person a job. Even with affirmative action, one must have the skills and education necessary to land said job; your example of the person on Section 8 in the ghetto is NOT the person who benefits from AA. Affirmative action does nothing to end the viscious cycle of violence and poverty that has become everyday life in the inner-cities.

If the intention of affirmative action is simply to make amends for four hundred years of slavery and descrimination, that's fine, but let's call it that. Don't play it off as a wonderful plan designed to level the playing field, when those who benefit most from it are the ones already in a position to have a relatively successful life.

I am all for helping anyone who, through no fault of his own, is placed in a disadvantaged position in life. AA, in its present form at least, is not the answer to that.

 

[chess9]

Reitz:

I could not disagree more.

AA has helped millions of individuals and small contractors get jobs and experience they wouldn't have had otherwise. It works. But it has become the political whipping boy for those who think white superiority isn't getting it's due deference. I'm thinking of Bakke, in particular. Most job offerings, like college openings, have many qualified applicants. Giving an occasional job preference to someone who is black, or female, is not wrong in my view.

But conservative jurisprudence is winning the AA policy battles at this time. Let's hope we don't ever have to pay a heavy price for the stupidity of those policies.

 

[Vikaden]

chess9-To iterate, I hope Colin Powell does a great job and I wish him well. His selection by Bush is a wonderful sign. Let's hope he never forgets where he came from AND does something about it.

what is that supposed to mean? if you think i am going to pay any amount of money to anybody that i dont dont owe it to, you have another think comming, I would rather rot in jail.

 

[chess9]

Vikaden:

No one is asking or expecting you to pay money you don't owe.

If you are saying you wouldn't obey any order to employ blacks, you have nothing to fear because such an order is not forthcoming in the near future. Keep voting for Jeb Bush and the Florida Republican members of the legislature and that won't change. AA was near the top of their list when they took power.

Frankly, I'm not certain what you mean. Perhaps you would care to clarify your comments?

 

[Vikaden]

Maybe i misunderstood you comment, i have no problem with the employment of blacks but would you hire an unskilled black man over a highly qualified white man? just because AA told you too?

 

[etech]

I often give money to people I don't owe, it's called charity.

Sounds a lot like what Chess wants more of.