Will the real Colin Powel please stand up!! :)

[TSDible]

<< Anyway, I wholeheartedly endorse Classy's views. Colin Powell IS a fine man, but not a black leader. >>



Aren't we all missing the point? We don't need anyone to lead the &quot;black people,&quot; the &quot;white people,&quot; or any &quot;other people.&quot; We need an &quot;American Leader.&quot; Powell is that. I think Bush made an excellent decision.



<< I would have appointed him Secretary of Defense, not Secretary of State, but let's give the guy a chance and see how he does. >>



Yes... let's give him a chance and see... With that I agree.

 

[reitz]

chess9,

<< Most job offerings, like college openings, have many qualified applicants. Giving an occasional job preference to someone who is black, or female, is not wrong in my view. >>

But how many of those people are the ones who need it most? I'm not going to debate the merits of helping minorities, or state my opinions on the morality AA, but I seriously question any assertion that it helps the most disadvantaged.

If affirmative action has been helping those in the inner-cities, then why does the population in those communities continue to grow? Why do the numbers of black Americans under the poverty level increase every year? If affirmative action is truly helping the situation, then why is it that the vast majority of black college students come from suburbia?

Again, I am not debating the merits of helping those who may be disadvantaged due to race or gender, but affirmative action is not doing a thing for those most in need.

 

[chess9]

Vikaden:

No, but such clear cut choices rarely presnt themselves. I've probably hired 500+ people in my lifetime. Of course, for every position we had one or two clearly unqualified applicants. But we also had 5-10 very qualified applicants. Between qualified applicants, I am in favor of preferences for the following groups:

1. Veterans;
2. Blacks;
3. Women;
4. Hispanics;
5. American Indians.

On a somewhat humorous note, back in the '80s a black, female, veteran applied for some job in Illinois, I believe, and got the job over many other equally qualified white males, who were none too happy. A law suit ensued and her employer won. But for every person who got a job through AA, I'm sure many more were denied jobs (or promotions, or equal pay) because they were black, Hispanic, female, etc.)

 

[chess9]

Reitz:

Are you paraphrasing a study? In other words, do you have actual data that AA has not worked in the past?

 

[chess9]

TSDible:

I agree Powell IS an American leader and we need good ones. The point I was making is an oblique reference to Classy's thoroughly correct notion that Powell is not seen as a leader in the black community. This problem is widespread everywhere in America. Among women, it is a very serious problem. Very often, a woman president is a mid-level female manager's worst nightmare. Once THEY'VE made it, they don't mentor others, but inhibit other women. (this is happening less and less as pressure about this problem has been brought to bear on women managers). A similar phenomenon happens with blacks, and many blacks are aware of it. Once someone gets out of the ghetto, they are sometimes never heard from again, unless they are making a Wheaties commercial. I hope at some time before he retires General Powell will take the turn Jimmy Carter took-giving back in a very big way. He is such a wonderful human being, I'm sure it WILL happen sometime.

By the way, I worked directly under a black female CEO in the '70s. She was one autocratic b*tch, and treated every woman under her like dirt. Men she treated like dirt with grass on it. She was a rabid right wing Republican as well. I'm sure that was just a coincidence.

 

[reitz]

chess9, no, AFAIK, there has never been a study done that accurately supports either position. I am simply using facts that are out there to support my opinion.

Maybe I'll have time to dig up some hard numbers when I get home from work, but for now:

The population of inner-city blacks under the poverty level has been increasing for some time. Common sense tells me that the programs designed to help these people are not doing their job. The population of middle-class blacks, overall, has been increasing steadily for two decades, though, which does lend some support to AA. Again, I am not debating the merits of that kind of program. I am only stating that the people AA has been designed to help the most are the ones being left behind.

The state of California determined the same when it decided to eliminate all raced-based preferences for college admissions. Part of the reasoning was that AA for college admission did no more than give an unfair advantage to middle-class blacks, while those that actually needed the assistance were being ignored. Remember, that change was spearheaded by a black man, so accusations of white superiority are totally unfounded.



<< The point I was making is an oblique reference to Classy's thoroughly correct notion that Powell is not seen as a leader in the black community. >>

That the black community does not see him as a leader is a pretty poor argument. IMAO, he is the best kind of leader anyone can have. Rather than emulate a true role model who gained the respect of millions through his integrity and hard work, they choose to rally behind a loud-mouthed jackass, who's only concern is his place in the spotlight. &quot;True black leaders&quot; are the ones that alienate those who would otherwise be supportive, and do more to hurt the cause of equality than advance it.

 

[TSDible]

Chess9

Alow me to clarify. I did not mean to disagree with what you said. I understand that the &quot;black community&quot; does not see Powell as a leader of the African American population.

I was actually only trying to state that I belived this thread to be looking at Powell (and other selections) the wrong way. Members of the Cabinet are meant to be leaders of nations, not of individuals. In that respect, I believe that up to this point, Bush has done a fabulous job in selecting it's members.

Perhaps Powell is not the leader, but he sure makes a damn fine role model IMHO. I'm not sure that anyone could disagree with that.

Classy...

I'm sure that your convictions are strong and that many of your points are valid. However, you really need to work on your delivery.

 

[Russ]

<< Very often, a woman president is a mid-level female manager's worst nightmare. Once THEY'VE made it, they don't mentor others, but inhibit other women. (this is happening less and less as pressure about this problem has been brought to bear on women managers). A similar phenomenon happens with blacks, and many blacks are aware of it. Once someone gets out of the ghetto, they are sometimes never heard from again, unless they are making a Wheaties commercial. >>



I am always amazed by these broad-based unilateral assumptions coming from Guilty White Liberals. But, I suppose this is NOT racist or sexist?

Russ, NCNE

 

[chess9]

Russ:

Those aren't assumptions nor are they unilateral.

Who are you trying to convince I'm a racist/sexist? This is the 3rd time you've intimated as much. Are you formulating a radical new theory that presupposes that Democrats are actually racist pigs in Commie clothing?

The variant that AA is racism has played already to modest success. Perhaps your extension will resonate with your &quot;train&quot; of followers.

 

[Russ]

<< Are you formulating a radical new theory that presupposes that Democrats are actually racist pigs in Commie clothing? >>



Theory? New?

Russ, NCNE

 

[chess9]

Apparently, Bush's appointments haven't gone over well with the black community.

We'd rather burn this Bush....

 

[Russ]

<< Only about one in five blacks say that Bush will work hard to represent their views. >>



HMM...that works out to about TWICE the percentage that voted for him to begin with. Nice try.

Russ, NCNE

 

[SJ]

Powell is not a black leaders hs IS a LEADER for EVERYONE hes done more for blacks and other miniortiy children than the people you call black leaders.

 

[aenima]

What has Colin Powell done that so great? I'm black and its cool to have a black person appointed to such a job but besides helping spank Iraq why does everyone think he's so great? He seems like a nice guy and he's probably smarter then George W I know Chaney is.But republicans like voting for people dumber then them(GW and Reagan).

 

[JellyBaby]

aenima,

Powell's role in the Gulf War is no minor bullet on his resume. Have you ever heard him speak? He's inspirational, knows his Ps and Qs and oozes with leadership qualities. He could be a great general, SOS, VP or even P.