Will we ever see "Dynamic Water" in games?

[Coldkilla]

Your thoughts? I think it'll be impossible unless we develop a way to do away with wires and have data sent through light waves.

 

[Kntx]

you'll probably see it in 5 - 10 years.

light waves? lol.

 

[gorcorps]

Originally posted by: Coldkilla
Your thoughts? I think it'll be impossible unless we develop a way to do away with wires and have data sent through light waves.

We have that now... it's called optical. We just don't use it in most computer parts because it's unnecessary. The circuits of copper and gold in the PC are so short lengthwise that you wouldn't see any improvement. Except maybe in your sata cables and the like.

 

[Coldkilla]

5-10 years? Even the fastest computers in the world cannot produce a cup of water, nontheless an ocean. 5 Years? Bach!

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Coldkilla
5-10 years? Even the fastest computers in the world cannot produce a cup of water, nontheless an ocean. 5 Years? Bach!

What exactly do you mean by dynamic water? If you mean we should simulate each molecule and the interactions between them, then no, the fastest computers probably cannot produce it. If you mean a reasonable mathematical model of fluid which reacts realisticly then I don't see why that's not possible. If you mean simply doing waves and droplets in nice smooth 3D then that's certainly possible right now...

 

[cmdrdredd]

Can anyone give me an example of dynamic water? I mean Half-Life 2 has nice water, F.E.A.R had decent water effects.

I'm having a hard time painting a picture of what dynamic water would be.

 

[Auryg]

There's actually an engine (and game) coming out within the next few years that supposedly has pretty lifelike water. I think the main point of the game is rushing through corridors where water is coming in behind you, or something like that.

I forget it's name though.

Of course, it's not calculating every molecule

 

[imported_chrisbtx]

Originally posted by: Auryg
There's actually an engine (and game) coming out within the next few years that supposedly has pretty lifelike water. I think the main point of the game is rushing through corridors where water is coming in behind you, or something like that.

I forget it's name though.

Of course, it's not calculating every molecule

I think you're talking about Hydrophobia, correct? I haven't been keeping up with my gaming and whatnot lately, so I could be wrong....
(information pulled from IGN Xbox360)


The game has my interest and hopefully will be able to deliver on (or close to) the level of realism with the water as the maker claims.

This link has a quick tidbit on the water system stating it will use a new engine called the HydroEngine for fluid dynamics (and has a pic on the page with the link to the gallery like most all these articles do on IGN).

Here's another update from IGN on the HydroEngine with a link to a YouTube vid about the "new water technology." (the video does not show any actual game video or anything though... )

 

[BoberFett]

Perhaps the OP means volumetric water? For instance, shoot a hole in a barrel of water and shoots out a stream until it's to the level of the hole. Those are some intense physics and outside of actually simulating molecules I'm not sure how you'd do it accurately. You wouldn't necessarily have to stay at molecular size, but it would have to be sufficiently small that it could simulate a liquid.

You may have seen physics engine demos that involved piles of primitives (cubes, spheres, etc) and how they interacted when you dropped something into the pile. Most physics engines I've seen really bog down modern processors with only a couple hundred objects being tracked. Imagine having millions to billions of those objects and calculating for each of them for 60 frames per second and you can imagine the kind of processing power it would take. It'll be a long time before we see this in games.

 

[Coldkilla]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Perhaps the OP means volumetric water? For instance, shoot a hole in a barrel of water and shoots out a stream until it's to the level of the hole. Those are some intense physics and outside of actually simulating molecules I'm not sure how you'd do it accurately. You wouldn't necessarily have to stay at molecular size, but it would have to be sufficiently small that it could simulate a liquid.

You may have seen physics engine demos that involved piles of primitives (cubes, spheres, etc) and how they interacted when you dropped something into the pile. Most physics engines I've seen really bog down modern processors with only a couple hundred objects being tracked. Imagine having millions to billions of those objects and calculating for each of them for 60 frames per second and you can imagine the kind of processing power it would take. It'll be a long time before we see this in games.

Agreed. With Half Life 2's engine, you can break wood nicely - however, if you place a dynamite charge and break 200 wooden beams, you kill the speed of your PC. That's just 200-1000 parts flying all over the place. Molecular size would take millions and millions of parts, so I don't even think we've hit the 1% mark of what we need to hit in order to see realistic water in games.

What I mean by water is: You dip a cup in a tank of water, the glass fills with liquid and the tank looses that much water respectively. You can have realistic water falling off a waterfall without and prerendered effects, whereas the water actually breaks when hitting the rocks underneath and flows down the river dynamically. Or just like in that Hydro demonstration: Hitting a tank of water with a crowbar and having the water all rush out - in real time, with no prerendering.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

ohhh...that sounds really cool. i cant wait for that stuff...i'm a sucker for physics and graphics. To me, it adds to the gameplay experience tremendously.

 

[Piblokto]

As with any "visual" effect, the only test is whether it fools the human eye into thinking it looks like what it purports to be. Our eyes can't see each molecule, so that level of computing power won't be needed for graphics purposes. Given that there are very real limits on human vision, I think it's only a matter of a few years before essentially "real" liquid effects are available.

Now if you wanted to do a scientific calculation that required tracking each molecule, that's another question.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Piblokto
As with any "visual" effect, the only test is whether it fools the human eye into thinking it looks like what it purports to be. Our eyes can't see each molecule, so that level of computing power won't be needed for graphics purposes. Given that there are very real limits on human vision, I think it's only a matter of a few years before essentially "real" liquid effects are available.

Now if you wanted to do a scientific calculation that required tracking each molecule, that's another question.

I agree, although it may be impossible to develop an "empirical" algorithm without figuring out the more complex one.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

The water in Lair Is actually amazing.

Edit- In other words, the Water is amazingly lifelike

 

[Coldkilla]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
The water in Lair I actually amazing.

Has anyone successfully decyphered what tenshodo13 said?

-- true as it may be with molecular sized particles not being able to be seen by the human eye. I just mean in very small, not necessarily "molecule" sized but perhaps "pixel sized".

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: Coldkilla

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
The water in Lair I actually amazing.

Has anyone successfully decyphered what tenshodo13 said?

-- true as it may be with molecular sized particles not being able to be seen by the human eye. I just mean in very small, not necessarily "molecule" sized but perhaps "pixel sized".

thats exactly what I was thinking. You only need to calculate what your monitor can display. Anything smaller than a pixel is a useless waste of processing power.

To answer your question though I expect this to happen in the next 5 years. If you look back 5 years to 2002 and the cutting edge graphics then and extrapolate it I can see it easily happening in the next 5.

Here are some games from 2002 to compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_in_video_gaming
If you click on a game some of them have screen shots.

 

[imported_Imp]

Think this would fall into the physics area. It'd be amazing if water actually flowed around objects with real waves. But you'd have to calculate every globule/pixel cluster of it and with the trouble they have rendering a few barrels now, I don't see this happening soon. Personally, I'm happy with them getting the light reflecting off water 'realistically'. Also, I doubt there'd be much use for 'dynamic water' unless a they made a firefighter game or....???

 

[miniMUNCH]

Crysis will probably have the best by far when it comes out.

Check out some of the cryengine2 demos.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: Coldkilla

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
The water in Lair I actually amazing.

Has anyone successfully decyphered what tenshodo13 said?

-- true as it may be with molecular sized particles not being able to be seen by the human eye. I just mean in very small, not necessarily "molecule" sized but perhaps "pixel sized".

thats exactly what I was thinking. You only need to calculate what your monitor can display. Anything smaller than a pixel is a useless waste of processing power.

To answer your question though I expect this to happen in the next 5 years. If you look back 5 years to 2002 and the cutting edge graphics then and extrapolate it I can see it easily happening in the next 5.

Here are some games from 2002 to compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_in_video_gaming
If you click on a game some of them have screen shots.

It depends completely on the scale of water involved. It sure would be neat to overturn a table in a game and see liquids spill and pool realistically. I'm sure we'll see that in five years. But it will be a long time until we see a dam burst and watch calculated water spill over a town.

 

[skace]

There was a good interview with one of the developers of Bioshock awhile back that was strictly about the water. For those who don't know, Bioshock is a game that takes place in an underwater facility, so water is playing a large part, flooding, pressure breaches, that type of stuff. Anyhow, the interesting part of the interview was the discussion of how much processing power they decided to put into water. Bioshock doesn't do 'real' water, it fakes it, it fakes it very well. See, water presents a 3d object with a limitless number of surfaces, which becomes a problem that cannot be rectified very easily. Almost every developer comes to the same conclusion, create an invisible 3d object with a water-esque top texture. I can't begin to imagine when we will be able to process water truly, but most developers have come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary and won't be for a very long time.

 

[Coldkilla]

Originally posted by: Imp
Think this would fall into the physics area. It'd be amazing if water actually flowed around objects with real waves. But you'd have to calculate every globule/pixel cluster of it and with the trouble they have rendering a few barrels now, I don't see this happening soon. Personally, I'm happy with them getting the light reflecting off water 'realistically'. Also, I doubt there'd be much use for 'dynamic water' unless a they made a firefighter game or....???

Are you kidding? Half Life, Bioshock, any game with a blasted water tank, first personshooters inside restaurants with table glasses, waterfalls in games like Crysis. Theres thousands of games that would use this technology. Rain too, most games can incorperate rain, and to see the rain puddle up and/or fill up a glass would be awesome.

To miniMUNCH: yea, the cryengine2 will blow everyones socks off. The 'simulated' water seems nice too. Youtube Linky: 1:09 3D Ocean Mapping.

But yes,
A gallon of water: 5 years.
A Dam: 7-10 years.

 

[KeithTalent]

I want to feel wet when I play.

KT

 

[Canai]

Bioshock looks great, and the water effects are amazing.

As far as full fledged water simulation, no, we probably won't see it.

 

[KeithTalent]

I thought SM4.0 was supposed to bring some sort of dynamic water effects into games. Can't remember where I read that though...

KT

 

[40sTheme]

There have already been small amounts of 'dynamic' water in games (FEAR is one example), but water itself still looks unrealistic. I'm not worried about the simulation so much as the actual appearance.