Win98 vs 2000

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
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0
I am pretty savvy and comfortable with Win98. It is extremely stable and compatible for me, works great, I am happy. Why would I want to try anything else? Because I know sooner or later Win98 will be cut out of the loop for current software and I will be forced to upgrade. I was given a legitimate copy of Windows 2000 some time ago, but I never touched it. I have heard alot of rumors about game and software incompatibility and I love to play games. A friend of mine recently upgraded to 2000 and said everything worked just as well as 98 in terms of compatibility. My question is; will switching to Windows 2000 ruin my gaming fun? Is 2000 a big waste and maybe I should just shell out some cash for Windows XP? I would like to get some good use out of my Windows 2000 cd, but not if it's gonna be a giant hassle.
 

TheOmegaCode

Platinum Member
Aug 7, 2001
2,954
1
0
The only games you have problems with are the really old games.
2k is not a waste of time, it's a great OS. As a matter of fact a lot of people prefer 2k to XP...
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Windows 9x is a big wate of time, the NT based OS's are far supperior in every way, except DOC compatibility.

Just make sure you install the application compatibility tools, they're on the Win2K CD but arent installed by default.
Look under X:\support\tools (I think, long time agi since I did that...).
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
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I have 256MB of RAM now, should I bother to upgrade to 512MB? DDR is expensive now!
 

GoHAnSoN

Senior member
Mar 21, 2001
732
0
0
no, 256 ram works just fine.

but i would say xp is better.
but 2k/xp memory handling is definately better than 98 based system.
just go for it , y not ?, u can always reinstall !
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
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Update: I waited a week for testing with a dual boot and here is my opinion.

Win2000 Pro is no more stable than Win98SE. In one week I haven't had a single crash or freeze in either one. But then, as I have said before, I go months without one single problem in Win98 with a highly overclocked computer playing a million games constantly. The only thing going for Win2000 Pro is it is actually easier to set up. But is is much slower than Win98, even when I borrowed another 256MB of DDR for 512MB total. All my applications load a little slower and my desktop feels slower too. I went into service and turned off a bunch of worthless crap, but it didn't help. Also I have a nice scanner that is about 2 or 3 years old that has no NTFS driver available in the known universe. I run a highly stripped down version of Win98, it is lean, mean, fast and incredibly stable. Win2000 Pro really isn't that bad, but I am putting it down hard because it really should be superior to Win98 in every way, and it doesn't come close. At least for me NTFS doesn't do squat, I don't see any superior memory management or stability, I just notice a bloated lethargic OS. Go ahead and flame me and say I don't have things set up correctly and what not, but that's not the problem. I guess for a server that stays on 24/7 NTFS is better, but for a desktop gaming rig it just blows hot air. Since I am displaying a sour and prejudiced opinion here, I 'll go one step further to provoke some flaming. For everybody using Win2000Pro for non server use and insisting that it is far superior to Win98, this means two things.

(1) you never took the time to tweak and set up Win98 properly
(2) your trying really hard to convince yourself that the money you gave to Microshaft was worth it


I'll say it one more time, Win2000 Pro actually runs OK, I just expected so much more after reading all these threads in here about how Win98 sucks compared to 2000/XP.
 

Derango

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2002
3,113
1
0
Originally posted by: rogue1979
Win2000 Pro really isn't that bad, but I am putting it down hard because it really should be superior to Win98 in every way, and it doesn't come close.

Speak for yourself. When I put win2k on a year ago, it was a night and day difference between win98 and win2k.

I respect your opinion of win2k...I just don't agree with it

 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
0
0
Windows 2000 Pro is better in a lot of ways. It supports the more reliable and faster (On partitions over about 30GB) NTFS filing system. It also supports a whole host of networking features that you may find useful in the future. The improved security is another reason to switch over. Also, the memory management technique is infinitely better with 2000 because it doesn't try to maintain 16-bit program compatibility (16-bit programs are all but extinct). Stability is improved massively as well. Mostly this is because software runs on a different layer from the OS. So, a program crash is less likely to bring down the whole system in the process. Compatibility hasn't really been a problem for me with Windows 2000. I have been using it for around 2 years now.
 

HeinekinMan

Senior member
Nov 2, 2000
207
0
0
Like you, I resisted leaving Win98SE for a long, long time as I had no problems with stability. But since upgrading to Win2K a year ago I'm glad I made the move! We just recently migrated to it at my place of work as well.

As far as being slower, in my personal experience, Win2K blows Win98SE out of the water as far as speed is concerned. My apps open faster and function smoother under Win2K. As a stress test (I work in s/w integration and do a lot of stress testing), this is what all of my Win2K systems can do SIMULTANEOUSLY: burn CDs on-the-fly from my DVDROM drive to my CDRW drive (using WinOnCD or Diskjuggler), scan documents from my USB scanner, print a document to both my LPT laser printer and my USB printer, upload digital pics from my USB digicam, transfer files across my LAN to other nodes, surf the web with IE6 (10-20 open windows to different websites; I had a max of 25 open at one time but I end up running out of room on the task bar!), surf the web with Netscape 6.2.3 (10-20 open windows), play an mp3 track using WMP from the HD, edit/send an email message from Netscape 6.2.3, and view newsgroups using Netscape 6.2.3. The burned CD-R's always turn out perfectly BTW!

While I'm doing this testing, I can still open MS-Office 2000 apps (ALL of them at the same time including Access, Powerpoint, Excel, Word, etc) with various documents, Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, and Acrobat. Oh I can even distill a Word document into a .pdf while all of these activities are occuring!! I can't vouch for games since I'm not a gamer except for @hit like Duke, Doom, Solitaire, Elf Bowling, etc.

My systems all have 512 MB RAM and vary at CPU levels: P4-2.0, PIII-800, and PIII-800 mobile. The biggest reason for the move to Win2K was for multitasking in which it is SUPERIOR to Win98SE. I'll probably be ready for XP sometime next year after the next service pack!

Now on my work PC (PIII-700), it starts to stutter (256 MB RAM) bigtime if I attempt to compile several files containing C++ source code (using Green Hills MULTI 2000 C++ compiler); mouse and screen response almost comes to a halt! Even on our build machine (dual PIII-733 with 1 GB of ECC RAM) if we attempt to compile multiple images but each of these machines use an EIDE HD so that would explain things; maybe with a faster SCSI-based or even a FC HD setup this would not be a problem...

If you're using an Intel P4-based system, you will see a HUGE improvement in application response by using the Intel Application Accelerator...also, 256 MB is adequate but you really need 512 MB or even more IMHO although you mentioned that you tried using 512 MB. Other things that help would be having at least a 7200 RPM HD with DMA enabled which you probably have.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: rogue1979
Update: I waited a week for testing with a dual boot and here is my opinion.

Win2000 Pro is no more stable than Win98SE. In one week I haven't had a single crash or freeze in either one.
You are one of the few lucky people who has one of the very few lucky combinations of hardware who's drivers do not interfere in a Win9x based OS. In Windows 98, rebooting every few days is considered preventative maintenance; that's probably why you've never noticed any stability problems with '98. I can run my Windows 2000 (and .NET server) systems for several weeks under heavy workloads, and they never show any signs of slowing down or getting instable.
But then, as I have said before, I go months without one single problem in Win98 with a highly overclocked computer playing a million games constantly. The only thing going for Win2000 Pro is it is actually easier to set up. But is is much slower than Win98, even when I borrowed another 256MB of DDR for 512MB total.
Sounds like a DMA-not-enabled-on-the-harddisk problem to me. When I went from Windows ME (similar to 98) on a low end HP Pavilion to Windows 2000 Pro, the speed and stability of the system went up quite noticeably. Applications didn't start a whole lot faster, but you could start a lot of applications at once, and they'd all work quite reliably and smoothly. FWIW, that system was dedicated to sound recording and Powerpoint, and under Windows ME it was almost impossible to do both at the same time; now, with Windows 2000 Pro, I can record, show a presentation on the 2nd monitor (incidentally, the ATI Xpert@Play 98 PCI used for said monitor was not compatible with the integrated Intel chipset gfx under Windows ME, but it works fine under Win2k), and do a gazillion other things at once. This is on a 766MHz Celeron with 128MB of RAM, FYI.
All my applications load a little slower and my desktop feels slower too. I went into service and turned off a bunch of worthless crap, but it didn't help. Also I have a nice scanner that is about 2 or 3 years old that has no NTFS driver available in the known universe.
Old scanners can be a problem for WinNT-based OSes. Luckily, my HP scanner has drivers; though they don't work perfectly, they work well enough to hold me over until I can get a nicer scanner. Oh, and FYI, NTFS is a file system type, not a driver type.
I run a highly stripped down version of Win98, it is lean, mean, fast and incredibly stable. Win2000 Pro really isn't that bad, but I am putting it down hard because it really should be superior to Win98 in every way, and it doesn't come close.
For most everyone else, Windows 2000 far surpasses Windows 98 in every way. I sense some sort of PICNIC issue here.
At least for me NTFS doesn't do squat, I don't see any superior memory management or stability, I just notice a bloated lethargic OS.
NTFS provides better reliability, and security (which is non-existant in FAT32). Maybe you don't care about either, but I do, and I much prefer the NTFS to the FAT32 filesystem. Also, did it ever occur to you that maybe you're not seeing any advantages in the memory management dept. because you're not stressing your system. Gaming is not a particularly stressful activity for anything other than the CPU and video card (although modern games are starting to use more RAM, that's not what stresses the memory management subsystem; heavy multitasking with lots of apps that all use lots of RAM is what will stress the aforementioned subsystem).
Go ahead and flame me and say I don't have things set up correctly and what not, but that's not the problem. I guess for a server that stays on 24/7 NTFS is better, but for a desktop gaming rig it just blows hot air. Since I am displaying a sour and prejudiced opinion here, I 'll go one step further to provoke some flaming. For everybody using Win2000Pro for non server use and insisting that it is far superior to Win98, this means two things.

(1) you never took the time to tweak and set up Win98 properly
(2) your trying really hard to convince yourself that the money you gave to Microshaft was worth it
Then why are so many gamers around here using Windows 2000 or XP instead of Windows 98?

Although you'll instantly throw out my opinion, because I prefer Windows 2000, I will say that back in the day when I was using Windows 98, I had it tweaked to the max; no extra system tray applications, no unneeded background stuff (\HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Currentversion\Run\ was as clean as it could be) was running, and all drivers were up to date. My hardware, although not top of the line, was not cheap and crappy stuff either. Nevertheless, Windows 98 would not stay up more than a day or two before becoming extremely sluggish and having to be rebooted. It would BSOD at least a few times each week, and "this program has performed an illegal operation"s were very common.

I paid for Windows 2000 OEM version, which I got when I also purchased some other hardware for my computer. It was well worth what I paid for it. Currently, I'm using Linux more and more, and find that it's even better than Windows 2000, but that's not really on topic here, so I digress...
I'll say it one more time, Win2000 Pro actually runs OK, I just expected so much more after reading all these threads in here about how Win98 sucks compared to 2000/XP.
I'll say it one more time (if I have said it already): If your computing habits are to reboot your computer each day (or shut it off at night), and if you never run more than one or two apps at one time, you'll probably not see any benefit to Windows 2000. For those of us who run distributed computing projects, or do other CPU-intensive things with our computers, 24/7/365.25, and also do a lot of multitasking with applications like SoundForge, Photoshop, VMWare, Premiere, etc., Windows 2000 / XP provides many compelling reasons why it should be used rather than Windows 98.
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
0
0
Now we are getting down to the nitty gritty. I value all your opinions, I figured I'd provoke some good responses and it's working

I really want to like 2000, and you guys are giving me some excellent insights. I play alot of games, burn a few CD's and do light desktop programs as well as a lot of web surfing (obviously). I rarely multi-task more than two or three apps at once, maybe this is one area that is improved but I wouldn't notice.

I have to disagree about Window 98 stability still, I have four highly overclocked machines in the house with all different devices running flawlessly. This brings me to my next subject, IRQ assignments. In Win98, I make sure that the sound card, video card and modem/lan are all running on different IRQ's. I use the bios settings as well as actually switching PCI slots to make sure the assignments are all evenly distributed, not a bunch jammed on one. This might sound like extra work, but I have been doing it this way for a long time with excellent results. I noticed with my dual boot configuration Win2K put everything on IRQ 11, modem, sound, lan, and video. It seems to work fine, I have the latest AGP and IDE drivers loaded and my 3DMark score is equal to Win98 results.
Now the device manager won't allow me to change IRQ's, and I don't want to switch PCI slots because everything is configured as I want in Win98. Is there a way to change IRQ assignments in Win2K in the device manager or anywhere else without changing my Win98? Also is there any advantage to upgrading all the way to 1GB of DDR? Remember, I rarely tax my hardware or OS, nothing more than scorching the video card with an intense gaming session.
 

Axoliien

Senior member
Mar 6, 2002
342
0
0
One thing I always noticed about Windows98 was how it could suddenly boot up and give you some "Missing ****.dll" error.

At first it freaked me out...
"Great, now I have to reinstall. Backup all my programs. Run the repair. Tweak all my settings again..." and so forth

but after some time it would go like this...
"Great, now I have to reboot... hmmm, maybe one more time... oh, yep, windows SOMEHOW found it. YAAY now I don't have to reinstall"

Crazy windows.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I make sure that the sound card, video card and modem/lan are all running on different IRQ's. I use the bios settings as well as actually switching PCI slots to make sure the assignments are all evenly distributed, not a bunch jammed on one. This might sound like extra work, but I have been doing it this way for a long time with excellent results.

What a waste of time, at the most you save maybe 1 or 2 microsends per interrupt which even adding that up over weeks isn't going to be noticable. Current PICs only have 4 real wired interrupts anyway, (A, B, C and D) all the numbers you see are there for legacy compatibility. Some really non-PCI 2.1 compliant hardware/drivers need their own interrupt *cough*sblive*cough* but most of the devices are designed with interrupt sharing in mind because it's so common.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: StanTheMan
How do u run win9x for months without running out of resources?
Simple answer: you don't. He obviously shuts down the computers at night; there's no way Win9x could have a multi-month uptime with that kind of usage. The only Win9x machine that I've heard of with a high uptime was a stripped WinME box running only ICS and nothing else.
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
I make sure that the sound card, video card and modem/lan are all running on different IRQ's. I use the bios settings as well as actually switching PCI slots to make sure the assignments are all evenly distributed, not a bunch jammed on one. This might sound like extra work, but I have been doing it this way for a long time with excellent results.

What a waste of time, at the most you save maybe 1 or 2 microsends per interrupt which even adding that up over weeks isn't going to be noticable. Current PICs only have 4 real wired interrupts anyway, (A, B, C and D) all the numbers you see are there for legacy compatibility. Some really non-PCI 2.1 compliant hardware/drivers need their own interrupt *cough*sblive*cough* but most of the devices are designed with interrupt sharing in mind because it's so common.

Maybe that's why Win98 runs rock solid for me with no stability problems while most other people say that it doesn't.

I rarely run my computer for more than 3 or 4 hours without shutting down.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Maybe that's why Win98 runs rock solid for me with no stability problems while most other people say that it doesn't.

I rarely run my computer for more than 3 or 4 hours without shutting down.

Christ, anything will run great if you shut it down every 4 hours. I'd bet money the IRQ 'tweaking' you do has nothing to do with it.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Maybe that's why Win98 runs rock solid for me with no stability problems while most other people say that it doesn't.

I rarely run my computer for more than 3 or 4 hours without shutting down.
Christ, anything will run great if you shut it down every 4 hours. I'd bet money the IRQ 'tweaking' you do has nothing to do with it.
Exactly. IRQ tweaking rarely helps anything in reality, though it makes some people think their computers are faster; no real testing (AFAIK) has confirmed this.

FWIW, some older computers (my old now non-existant K6-2, for example) require Windows 2000 to be installed with the Standard PC HAL to force Win98-style IRQs or else they will not work properly. Any modern computer (excepting ones with certain Via chipsets and SBLives) can (and should) be installed with the ACPI HAL in Windows 2000. No performance drop will be noticable, and you will get some powersaving and other misc. features as benefits.

And, BTW, he independently confirmed my musings about his uptime requirements. Heck, even Windows 3.11 or NT 3.51 would be considered stable if it only had to run for that long! :Q
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
0
0
Gee, sorry to disappoint you guys, but I use my computer for work or fun and then turn it off, no need to run it 24/7. My wife runs hers 10-12 hours at a time without rebooting, no problems.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Gee, sorry to disappoint you guys, but I use my computer for work or fun and then turn it off, no need to run it 24/7

I just hate restarting all my programs back up so I leave my boxes on (well I have to for some to do their job, like the one that handles my mail) and I hibernate the laptop when I turn it off.

My wife runs hers 10-12 hours at a time without rebooting, no problems.

My work box has 3/4 devices sharing IRQs and it's been running for over a year straight (with the occassional power flicker, so it's currently only at ~70 days) without problems.

All I'm saying is that forcing devices on seperate IRQs gains you nothing (well except for SBLives because they're technically non-compliant devices).
 
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