Win98SE driver issues on a Biostar NF325-A7 w/nForce 3 250 chipset

[computer]

Hi all. First I need to say that I haven't messed with Win98 in many years, so I can't recall much of this. Sorry for the long post, but details are necessary. I appreciate any info.

I went through HELL getting Win98SE drivers installed on a Biostar NF325-A7 mobo. (Not for me, it's for a customer). Once again I reaffirmed my belief that mobo manufacturers are insane, or, know absolutely NOTHING about English. Or, both. :disgust: First, when you put the CD, and then click "Drivers", it says "Scanning [blah blah].......", then NOTHING at all happens. The drivers are a bitch to install manually because they are in either cab files or those self-extracting Winzip executable files (which go to the Windows Temp folder, then are immediately deleted!!), and are in totally cryptic folders that have nothing to do with the mobo's model number! :frown: The PDF also allegedly says where the 9x drivers are, but that path is for.........WINDOWS XP!!!! [where is the banging head against the wall icon when you need it] LOL. And when you nav to that folder trying to get drivers installed, it says there are no drivers in that folder for the hardware!! Furthermore, the Ethernet drivers on the mobo's CD, were not even for the LAN on this mobo!!!! They were for "81xx" and this mobo has the 8201 chipset!! :beer:

After several hours of trial and error, and trying to get rid of "PCI Bridge" yellow marks in the DM, and the constant "New Hardware Wizard" for it even AFTER the yellow mark was gone.....finally no more yellow marks.

Now the first issue is I first installed those WRONG LAN drivers, and they installed without any complaint. When I remembered the mobo has the 8201 chipset, I then got the 98SE chipset drivers from Biostar and updated the Network adapter in the DM with the (supposedly) correctly drivers. I believe the first go 'round it said "Networking adapter", now it says "nVidia Nforce Networking controller". What I'm wondering about that, is neither one of them sound correct, but I'm not all that familiar with nVidia platforms. Is this correct? The "driver details" both times still say the same driver! That's the nVidia driver, I didn't make a note of any different M$ drivers for it, and there is a lot of those listed.

Prior to installing the Ethernet drivers, the LAN wasn't even listed in the DM, I would think that like all mobo's before drivers, it should have had a yellow mark next to a "LAN or Ethernet Adapter", but there was nothing there at all. Is that normal? Even more confusing is under "Network Adapters", instead there was, and STILL IS, "Dial-up Adapter"!! What is that doing there on a mobo with no modem, and with no PCI Modem card installed?? The driver loaded for it is pppmac.vxd from M$.

Also prior to installing them, the PC would boot in about 5 seconds. Now it takes about a minute!! Is that normal after installing LAN drivers? I remember a SLIGHT boot-up slowdown on XP after installing LAN drivers, but not that long of a wait. I disabled the LAN in the DM and that helped a lot, maybe about 10-15 seconds to boot now.

Another odd thing is in the DM under "System Devices", there are four "PCI standard host CPU bridge" entries, and two "PCI standard PCI-to-PCI bridge" entries. Are those normal?

Then under the "System Information" > Hardware resources > I/O there's a hundred or so "Alias of........." entries. Is that normal?

I'm concerned that those last two paragraphs above may be from all the driver installation problems I had.

UPDATED, the issue in this one paragraph is fixed: [Finally, the mobo refuses to recognize any USB flash drives. I put one in a USB port, and every time it pops up the "New Hardware Wizard" for a "USB 2.0" device, and regardless where the hell I tell it to look, it never finds any drivers. There are no more yellow marks in the DM, and the USB 2.0 ports are shown correctly in the DM (yes, USB 2.0 drivers were installed). So I can't understand why none will work]. I'm leaving that in, in the event anyone else has that problem.

I almost forgot, a WD740 Raptor is installed and no where in the DM or System Information do I see any mention of any SATA drive! It just says "Generic IDE disk". That can't be right.

Thanks for any help guys. Again, it's been so many years since I've installed '98 that I don't remember how things are supposed to behave.

 

[computer]

An update to my post: at least I got the USB flash drives to work. I had to use some generic 3rd-party USB storage driver. But I still need info on the other areas.

 

[computer]

Anyone?

 

[Iron Woode]

you did download this driver package, right?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27.html

 

[bharatwaja]

ahem.... 98SE???

I jus dont understand why your customer is still in the Ice Age...

try the winfiles website.... I dont know if there's anythng there now but about some 4 years ago i needed somethng for 98se and found the driver there.....

 

[secretanchitman]

i commend you for trying your luck out on win98...but seriously? at LEAST go windows 2000......98 is so.....outdated.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
you did download this driver package, right?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27.html

Thanks for replying. No, I installed all the latest drivers from the Biostar website here: http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbd...ads.asp?model=NF325-A7 . If you think those will make a difference, then I'll install them. Thanks.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: bharatwaja
ahem.... 98SE???

I jus dont understand why your customer is still in the Ice Age...

try the winfiles website.... I dont know if there's anythng there now but about some 4 years ago i needed somethng for 98se and found the driver there.....

Originally posted by: secretanchitman
i commend you for trying your luck out on win98...but seriously? at LEAST go windows 2000......98 is so.....outdated.

Guys, I don't have a choice in the matter. It's what the customer has to have. He has some special software that will only work on Win98 or SE. New software for XP costs over $4000.00. :Q

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: computer

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
you did download this driver package, right?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27.html

Thanks for replying. No, I installed all the latest drivers from the Biostar website here: http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbd...ads.asp?model=NF325-A7 . If you think those will make a difference, then I'll install them. Thanks.

Those are all the same versions anyway except for the audio and Ethernet drivers. GART, memory controller, and SMBus are the same versions unfortunately. :frown: How can nVidia have an update for the audio when the audio is the Realtek 850?

 

[htne]

Have you considered running Win98SE in a VM (Virtual Machine) ?

 

[Regalk]

I would have tried WindowsME - this was far superior to WinSE and should run whatever software he has. I hope you told him that there is no security left in W98SE and he will be open to viruses/hacking or anything out there.
WinME has been condemned by many but I had zero problems with my version - in fact i tossed all copies of Win98SE since WMe had better drivers

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: htne
Have you considered running Win98SE in a VM (Virtual Machine) ?

No, I'm not familiar with that.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: Regalk
I would have tried WindowsME - this was far superior to WinSE and should run whatever software he has.

No it won't work on ME. It's some kind of graphics vinyl sign design software.

I hope you told him that there is no security left in W98SE and he will be open to viruses/hacking or anything out there.

Yeah he knows. It won't be connected to the net.

 

[computer]

So can anyone answer any of those questions in my first post? Starting with "Now the first issue...".

 

[Replay]

"...Also prior to installing them, the PC would boot in about 5 seconds. Now it takes about a minute!! Is that normal after installing LAN drivers?..."

Is the pc connected to a network? The system may be looking for a DHCP server to assign an IP address.

I have set up machines with fixed IP addresses (192.168.x.x) for standalone, or LAN use. Then they don't fart around during the boot trying to get an address. If connected to a local network leave the Gateway field empty so the pc won't see the internet through the router or modem.

 

[xgsound]

Here's the taiwan site. http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/...mb/driver.php?S_ID=201 They often have newer drivers than the USA site. Check and see.


Jim

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: Replay
"...Also prior to installing them, the PC would boot in about 5 seconds. Now it takes about a minute!! Is that normal after installing LAN drivers?..."

Is the pc connected to a network? The system may be looking for a DHCP server to assign an IP address.

I have set up machines with fixed IP addresses (192.168.x.x) for standalone, or LAN use. Then they don't fart around during the boot trying to get an address. If connected to a local network leave the Gateway field empty so the pc won't see the internet through the router or modem.

Thanks. Doesn't matter, boot time is the same whether the cable is connected to the RJ45 jack or not. This is boot time meaning not the Desktop loading, but before the OS is loaded. Sort of like between POST and Seeing the Desktop. So whether or not it's connected wouldn't matter.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: xgsound
Here's the taiwan site. http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/...mb/driver.php?S_ID=201 They often have newer drivers than the USA site. Check and see.
Jim

Thanks, I checked and those are older driver versions than what I found at the nVidia site. ( http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27.html ). And what is strange is there is no "SMbus" folder the way all the other versions had. There's only the "Ethernet" and "MemCtl" folders (and other files of course). But what is even odder is in the ReadMe file there IS this: "SMBus driver version 4.04 (WHQL) with updated uninstaller files" but that folder doesn't exist in the download!

I installed a modem yesterday (Creative Labs DI5733-1 PCI modem). I was going to reformat anyway due to all the duplicates in the Device Manager (see my original post), but I did it just to be sure the modem worked. It installed ok and did the diagnostics ok, no yellow marks in the DM. But it was sharing an IRQ that I didn't like, even though IRQ 9 was free. Since he's not going to need the SEC IDE port, I disabled that in the BIOS to possibly free up another IRQ hoping the modem would take an available one. It's been "fried" since. It also shows IRQ 12 as the one being free now. Now there are several yellow ! marks in the DM, the CDROM drive won't be seen in Windows, and now there's NO ENTRY AT ALL for the HD!! All that's under "Disk drives" is the floppy! I can't remove ANY of the devices showing the yellow mark! It keeps saying something about a parent object and it can't be removed. So I tried to remove the entire tree for the "HD controller" and I can't remove that either! I tried disabling the SEC IDE controller in the DM, that didn't work. I tried putting "PRI IDE Controller only" in the drop down for the TWO entries of "Standard dual PCI IDE controller", and that didn't work. I don't understand why there are two of those, there should not even be ONE of them since the SEC IDE controller is disabled in the BIOS, and there is also a SEC IDE controller entry in the DM!! Again, it's disabled in the BIOS! I tried disabling these unwanted items in the DM, and the yellow marks STILL STAY in the DM for the other entries of "PRI IDE Controller". The yellow marks will sometimes for sharing conflicts, OR, for "this device is either not working properly or the drivers have not been installed" (I can't remember that verbatim but you know what I mean). Of course as usual, it won't let you change the resources/IRQ for anything!

I'm now seeing the DOS compatibility mode BS in the DM ("Performance" tab). The system.ini file under Enh386 (I think it's called) does NOT have anything in it about 32bit mode being off, so that can't be changed to "on".

I put the BIOS back the way it was, and it's still screwed up! I tried reinstalling the drivers but can't totally complete it because it asks for the Win98SE CD, which doesn't work because the CDROM drive no longer is seen by Windows! And again, NONE of these entries in the DM can be removed, except for the "Standard dual PCI IDE controller". I remove it and it both keep coming back with yellow marks. Sure, I'm reformatting anyway, but I need to find out what the hell happened and why this is going on to prevent it from happening again.

It's been several years since I installed '98, but I have never seen anything like this before. I really need to learn what happened.

 

[computer]

Here's what it says verbatim when I try and remove the devices with the yellow marks:

"This device is part of a multi-function device and cannot be removed independently. To remove this device, select and remove the multi-function parent." The parent is one or BOTH of the two "Standard dual PCI IDE controller" entries. I remove both of them, restart as it says, then it sees them, and the PRI and SEC IDE controllers again, and installs the drivers for them. Then it says to restart* and it's the same BS in the DM all over again! *Also, when restarting at that time, or any other time I just want to shut it down or restart, it won't! It hangs on the "Win98 is shutting down" splashscreen! This never happened until the BS in the DM started. Before that, it shut down or restarted immediately.

I've exhausted hours on this and apparently all that will "fix" it is a reformat!

 

[tcsenter]

I hope your client doesn't need this ASAP, because its going to take some experimentation to get the best possible result here (read: starting over from scratch once or twice). You didn't provide other details such as RAM or graphics card.

Don't use the Biostar CD. Download the latest drivers from the chip makers. The LAN controller on this board requires NVIDIA drivers (not Realtek), which are supplied by the NVIDIA driver package. NVIDIA's audio drivers are not required, just Realtek audio drivers. Enabling SATA support in 98/ME requires the SATA controller to be configured for RAID mode. This is a limitation of the OS. Otherwise, the storage controller will use IDE mode, which should not be a problem. You aren't going to get full SATA feature support in 98SE, anyway. Also, you might want to check if you have the latest BIOS (8/26/05).

NVIDIA NF3 Drivers for 98/ME
http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27.html

Realtek AC97 Audio Drivers
ftp://202.65.194.212/pc/audio/WDM_A404.exe
ftp://152.104.238.19/pc/audio/WDM_A404.exe (alternate in case the first server is really slow)

NForce 2/3 USB 2.0 Drivers for 98SE (latest version I could find)
ftp://usa.aopen.com/pub/driver...usb2_2.1.11.1_98me.exe

Download this dandy little gem for later: Unofficial Win98SE Service Pack 2.1a

For more information about the Unofficial Service Pack: Exuberant Software


Before installing 98SE:

- Do not use more than 512MB RAM when installing 98SE, due to OS limitation. We can change this later.
- In any event, do not expect to use more than 1024MB RAM under 98SE.
- In BIOS, set AGP mode to 4x (if available) and AGP Aperture to 64MB.
- In BIOS, Disable onboard audio and LAN until after the OS is up and running.


After 98SE installation is complete (restart when prompted, which will probably be a lot):

- Install Windows Installer 1.1
- Install DirectX 8.1b
- Enable LAN in BIOS
- Install NVIDIA NF3 Drivers
- Install USB2.0 Drivers
- Install display drivers. If DX9.0 is required, install DX9.0C instead of DX8.1b above, then display drivers.
- Install Unofficial Win98SE Service Pack 2.1a (I don't recommend optional components and tweaks)
- Install any remaining RAM that you removed as advised above, but not more than 1024MB
- Enable Audio in BIOS and install Realtek Drivers
- Install PCI dial-up modem
- Enable AGP 8x mode in BIOS (leave Aperture at 64MB)
- Go to Windows Update and install remaining updates such as MSIE 6.0, security patches, .NET Framework 1.0/1.1/2.0, whatever

 

[computer]

Thanks a bunch for all the info, I appreciate it. Before anyone else replies with info like that, I need to say I got the problems fixed. I didn't post that here yet since there were no specific replies. See below......

Originally posted by: tcsenter
You didn't provide other details such as RAM or graphics card.

The memory and video card were never an issue, so I didn't mention them. It's a (Gigabyte boxed) nVidia GeForce FX5200 GV-N52128DS, 128mb, AGP. RAM is 2x512mb Geil PC4000 Ultra Platinum.

Don't use the Biostar CD. Download the latest drivers from the chip makers.

That's what I did. The first time from Biostar, the last time from the nVidia site that someone gave a link to in this thread. It's the same link you gave.

NVIDIA's audio drivers are not required, just Realtek audio drivers.

I used the audio drivers that were in that nVidia package, is that a problem?

Enabling SATA support in 98/ME requires the SATA controller to be configured for RAID mode. This is a limitation of the OS. Otherwise, the storage controller will use IDE mode, which should not be a problem. You aren't going to get full SATA feature support in 98SE, anyway.

I didn't have to do that. If I did, one HD would not have worked. That's probably why the HD is listed in the Device Manager the way I mentioned (some kind of generic IDE drive). But I did a lot of HD benchmarks and they were great. Right where a WD740ADFD should be, many even better. So it's apparently working ok.

Also, you might want to check if you have the latest BIOS (8/26/05).

That was my next thing to do if I couldn't have gotten it fixed.

NForce 2/3 USB 2.0 Drivers for 98SE (latest version I could find)
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="ftp://usa.aopen.com/pub/dri......_2.1.11.1_98me.exe"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="ftp://usa.aopen.com/pub/driver...usb2_2.1.11.1_98me.exe"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="ftp://usa.aopen.com/pub/driver/mb/nvidia/usb2/nvidia_usb2_2.1.11.1_98me.exe">ftp://usa.aopen.com/p............1_98me.exe</a></a></a>

I can't remember now where I got the USB2.0 drivers. The download was called usb20 and was a zipped self-extracting executable file, and in it was U2v2_1_11_1.exe.

Download this dandy little gem for later: Unofficial Win98SE Service Pack 2.1a

That may be the same thing I found here: http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

Before installing 98SE:

- Do not use more than 512MB RAM when installing 98SE, due to OS limitation. We can change this later.
- In any event, do not expect to use more than 1024MB RAM under 98SE.
- In BIOS, set AGP mode to 4x (if available) and AGP Aperture to 64MB.
- In BIOS, Disable onboard audio and LAN until after the OS is up and running.

Interesting, I started with the 1gb memory and had no problems there. Video card is set to 8x, and diagnostics show it's running at 8x. I kept the audio and LAN enabled so Windows would know before drivers were installed about any IRQ's needed. The second go-round I had the modem on the mobo for the same IRQ reasons, and this time it worked better. Last time it was sharing an IRQ.

- Install Windows Installer 1.1
- Install DirectX 8.1b
- Enable LAN in BIOS
- Install NVIDIA NF3 Drivers
- Install USB2.0 Drivers
- Install display drivers. If DX9.0 is required, install DX9.0C instead of DX8.1b above, then display drivers.
- Install Unofficial Win98SE Service Pack 2.1a (I don't recommend optional components and tweaks)
- Install any remaining RAM that you removed as advised above, but not more than 1024MB
- Enable Audio in BIOS and install Realtek Drivers
- Install PCI dial-up modem
- Enable AGP 8x mode in BIOS (leave Aperture at 64MB)
- Go to Windows Update and install remaining updates such as MSIE 6.0, security patches, .NET Framework 1.0/1.1/2.0, whatever

I didn't install any Windows installer, I think that was installed by something else I installed from a CD perhaps. I had to install DX9c before the chipset drivers were installed, and it was on the video card's CD. But that's all I installed off that CD, I used the latest drivers from Gigabyte for the video card. Why should AGP 4x be used during installation, and then change it to 8x after?

I didn't install that SP for SE, or any M$ updates. I didn't even think you could get to the update site using Win98 anymore. I told him about the SP 2.1a, and put it on a CD for him (along with all the latest drivers) and recommended he take a look at it. I let the customers handle updates from the update site themselves due to the countless screwups encountered with many M$ updates and patches. (That of course does not include any updates needed for the proper operation of a PC with newer hardware, I install those).

This is what I had to end up doing (this is some partial text from the ReadMe file I made for him if he has to ever reformat).

1. Install DX9c (Direct X). It has to be installed BEFORE the chipset drivers.

2. Install the newest nVidia chipset drivers for the motherboard (file "nForce_4.27_Win98ME_international").

3. In the Device Manager (DM), for the two "Standard dual PCI IDE controller" entries, go to their "Properties" and in the drop-down select the PRI controller only. This will get rid of one of the yellow marks in the DM. *

4. The USB 2.0 update (USB20) has to be installed to get rid of the yellow marks in the DM for some kind of PCI USB device controller.

6. Install the drivers for the video card. After doing this, any themes, colors, monitor resolutions, refresh rates, etc., can be changed.

The "NVIDIA nForce Networking Controller" can be disabled sometime after the chipset drivers are installed, to speed up the boot process. This is in the DM under "Network adapters". Just go its Properties and check "disable" and uncheck the box for "Exists in all......". Of course if this controller is going to be used for a LAN or broadband, it has to be enabled again.

* He's only going to use one IDE controller, so I disabled that to free up another IRQ. Also doing this fixed all the issues I had with the yellow marks I couldn't get rid of.

Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to post all that info, I'll certainly keep it. :thumbsup:

 

[tcsenter]

The memory and video card were never an issue, so I didn't mention them. It's a (Gigabyte boxed) nVidia GeForce FX5200 GV-N52128DS, 128mb, AGP. RAM is 2x512mb Geil PC4000 Ultra Platinum.

Well the point was more that they could have been contributing to your problems, particularly since you were using a configuration that is known to break Windows 98 and requires an adjustment to the vcache settings. This can manifest in numerous ways besides the obvious or classic behavior described by Microsoft, including but not limited to, device driver issues.

I used the audio drivers that were in that nVidia package, is that a problem?

Not really a problem, since the NV audio driver supports Realtek ALC65x codecs, but its not going to be the vendor's own hardware-specific driver. As long as the codec and driver are AC97 compliant, you can usually install any AC97 driver on any AC97 hardware and it will provide very basic stereo audio function, just like a generic VGA driver should work on any VGA compliant display controller to provide up to 640x480 resolution @ 256K color. But it will not have any support for enhanced feature set such as DirectSound acceleration (playback buffers), multichannel, audio enhancement, and will often sound inferior to the vendor's own driver. Realtek has been improving its drivers with numerous updates since NVIDIA released that driver, which undoubtedly includes bug fixes.

Interesting, I started with the 1gb memory and had no problems there.

That is an interesting curiosity. It should have been a problem and I'm not entirely convinced it was not contributing in some way. Delivering a computer with disabled and misconfigured hardware is not really "fixing" the problem so much as hiding it or blunting its effect.

I kept the audio and LAN enabled so Windows would know before drivers were installed about any IRQ's needed. The second go-round I had the modem on the mobo for the same IRQ reasons, and this time it worked better. Last time it was sharing an IRQ.

Whether Windows becomes aware of eventual IRQ needs during or after installation is a non-issue. Particular device installation orders can expose problems that a different installation order would not, but in neither case does it require that Windows be 'aware' of everything during installation. In fact, this is a lot more likely to expose problems than avoid them. Unless the hardware configuration is known tested and working with the operating system to be installed, it is always best practice to install the operating system on a minimalist configuration then install other devices after the OS is up and running with proper chipset/platform support.

Why should AGP 4x be used during installation, and then change it to 8x after?

Personal method preference.

I didn't install that SP for SE, or any M$ updates. I didn't even think you could get to the update site using Win98 anymore. I told him about the SP 2.1a, and put it on a CD for him (along with all the latest drivers) and recommended he take a look at it. I let the customers handle updates from the update site themselves due to the countless screwups encountered with many M$ updates and patches.

If you believed updates were no longer available from WU website, then how was the customer supposed to 'handle' getting them from WU? The Unofficial SP2.1a provides all public release security, stability, and reliability updates for 98SE classified as priority or critical. Optional or recommended updates can be deselected.

Personally, I would never let a computer leave my possession in this condition, precisely because I have the experience to manage problems that could arise from applying all those updates, while my clients usually do not. If they did, they would do their own PC work.

 

[computer]

(I clicked the wrong button).

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
Well the point was more that they could have been contributing to your problems, particularly since you were using a configuration that is known to break Windows 98 and requires an adjustment to the vcache settings. This can manifest in numerous ways besides the obvious or classic behavior described by Microsoft, including but not limited to, device driver issues.

I don't see how a video card type and or memory could cause resource conflicts in the DM for the IDE controller(s). I always change the vcache settings on '98 setups.

Interesting, I started with the 1gb memory and had no problems there.

That is an interesting curiosity. It should have been a problem and I'm not entirely convinced it was not contributing in some way. Delivering a computer with disabled and misconfigured hardware is not really "fixing" the problem so much as hiding it or blunting its effect.

What "misconfigured hardware"?? There is nothing misconfigured nor any problems or issues now. No resource conflicts, no yellow marks in the DM, and there never was any errors. And what's the point of leaving something enabled if it's not going to be used?? Especially since it (the LAN enabled) slows down the boot process!

I kept the audio and LAN enabled so Windows would know before drivers were installed about any IRQ's needed. The second go-round I had the modem on the mobo for the same IRQ reasons, and this time it worked better. Last time it was sharing an IRQ.

Whether Windows becomes aware of eventual IRQ needs during or after installation is a non-issue.

Oh really? It was in this case. As I stated there were resource conflicts the first time around, more after installing the modem. The second time there are no shared IRQ's to speak of, and there were no resource conflicts or any problems with drivers.

I didn't install that SP for SE, or any M$ updates. I didn't even think you could get to the update site using Win98 anymore. I told him about the SP 2.1a, and put it on a CD for him (along with all the latest drivers) and recommended he take a look at it. I let the customers handle updates from the update site themselves due to the countless screwups encountered with many M$ updates and patches.

If you believed updates were no longer available from WU website, then how was the customer supposed to 'handle' getting them from WU?

I said: "I let the customers handle updates from the update site themselves due to the countless screwups encountered with many M$ updates and patches", is referring to ALL customers REGARDLESS of OS, more so with XP. It's up to to him if he wants to install SP 2.1a. The Windows Update site is not the only place where one can get OS updates. There are countless other M$ pages that have updates, as well as other websites--again, his prerogative.

Personally, I would never let a computer leave my possession in this condition

And what is your definition of "this condition"?? Let's see; no resource conflicts, no yellow marks, stability, no errors or issues.....yeah, sounds like bad shape to me. Curse me for letting a PC go out in "that kind of condition". I flog thyself.

precisely because I have the experience to manage problems that could arise from applying all those updates, while my clients usually do not. If they did, they would do their own PC work.

Irrelevant. You don't know what's going on, so you are in no position to judge. "Experience" has nothing to do with this. I CAN and COULD "manage problems", (as I did on my own accord in this case). As I have stated, the PC will rarely IF EVER be connected to the net. Secondly, he needs the PC ASAP due to a deadline and time constraints do not allow me to "manage problems" with updates.

"...If they did, they would do their own PC work", no, there's a difference between hardware, and software. Most if not all PC users handle their own updates. It's their PC in their possession. They get updates as needed using their own methodology. They don't have to know about hardware to do this, as most don't. Just because they can get the updates they need when they need them, doesn't mean they can build their own PC.

I thanked you and told you I appreciated you taking the time to reply with your information. So I fail to understand your now condescending and holier-than-thou attitude.