My father and I spent three weeks in South Africa just over a year ago, rented a car in Jo'burg, drove to Gaborone, then over to Kruger, down to Swaziland, over through Lesotho, down to Port Elisabeth, and flew out of Cape Town, with various stops along the way. What I saw of the region jives with what Liu has said of it.
Well, moving back towards the topic of the thread, have you heard what what F. W. de Klerk recently said on
BBC Radio 4?:
What I quoted there starts about at about 2:25 in, but I recommend listening to the whole interview. There's another part a bit further in where he elaborates on the farm life situation you mention which I'm curious to hear your opinion of.
But again back to to the topic at hand, I'm surprised to see you opinion on South Africa in contrast to those I've seen from you on Israel and Palestine, particularly being aware of prominent South Africans such as F. W. de Klerk, Nelson Mandela, and Desmond Tutu's position on both. Your arguments on the latter remind me of a few guys I met at a bar in Bloemfontein, one of which wound up buying my father and I dinner at restaurant where we didn't see a black person within sight of. All three were completely hospitable to my father and I, but the two who left before dinner were brazenly disdainful of blacks and openly longed for a return to Apartheid. The third wasn't a flagrant bigot, but over dinner explained how Apartheid could have worked out if whites had been more equitable in the distribution of land (wish I would have had de Klerk's "omelet" analogy for him then). So I'm curious to hear: how did you come to see the follies of Apartheid in South Africa, yet also be such an ardent supporter of Israel's version of it?
lol those Free Staters are very hospitable. Brandy and rugby all they care about lol
See we where raised in a Christian environment where respect to elders and others were the main thing that was drilled into us. I was at that time a bit young to see really or realize really what was going on and such. Just heard my dads and others discussion when they had friends but briefly as kids weren't allowed in the grown ups company. So I can't really add to the political view as I was a youngster but I can add how we grow up. Honestly to me I didnt realize nor many other kids of the time of people being oppressed as the mates we had except when going to school was the black children on the farm. They were my and others living on farms best mates. When we go hunting we each grab a rifle and went hunting. Other thing is you see on the Tv of this Boer driving a pick up with the bloke oaks sitting at the back. That looks bad in one way but what the people don't realize a Datsun pickup can only seat 2 or 3. Driver a kid and a woman maybe. But we always had a sort of rule. Woman infront the rest at the back. Me who ever. So later on it came accustomed to the farmer sitting a lone up front not because the rest are inferior because of all at back rule. Also the workers was scouts and they had to spot the stock and in front is not a good way.
For Nelson Mandela our generation becoming to age after he was jailed we didn't know much. You know in The Rock where Sean Connery said You locked me up longer than Nelson Mandela what you want from me to run for president? Thats exactly how he was to us. Someone who was hidden with the key thrown away never to be mentioned. We missed most of the bombing era's as well as the major riots which was in the 70's. I was born in 78. In school we did the history from Van Riebeeck to the Zulu's, to the English past that country handed over from the British to a few presidents after that. Nothing of the 70's or anything as thats were it ended with our country.
The thing we love most in this country is our sport and I think International Isolation from that hurt the country more than anything else. And thats one of the major reasons I think De Klerk and rest started to look to end this isolation. I mean with sport we had our rivalries we developed between provincial teams as there were no International action after the NZ tour and flour bomb incidents. There were nothing we couldn't produce or do for ourselves. And we did it well. I mean none of those Sanctions really hurt the country like the Isolation from sport. Sport like rugby was in our blood and taking that away was like taking a big piece of the country away.
Politicains can say what they want but thats the
one of the big reason
we abolished Apartheid. When we gave back Namibia then the things about Mandela and the bombings started to came out. Suddenly it was like another world that we lived in and we only notice it now. With that I mean things that happened and the oppression of the people and such which we didn't notice. Then it was 92 and the country was up for election and suddenly people like Zuma and others were jumping out the cupboards out of nowhere.
No the general feeling is/was or still is that they are going to get us back and the ones who's going to feel that is us who were too young to realize what was going on or to do anything but will pay for the sins of our ancestors and such. Mandela is a great man and unfortunately he was too old. Mbeki was lickily under Mandela's wing a lot so that hatred was not much there as they were see it more than hard work and opening a whole nations eyes than anything else. But the ones who were the youths and grew up slogans like kill the boer kill the farmer are now the ones taking charge. Unfortunately they use the past and the people vote for a face rather than what he did the last election. I mean they make the same promises but none of them they actually follow up or anything.
Like that a large parts of the so called white lost interest in politics and don't even bother to go vote. The colored community as well. They were in the middle when apartheid was going now their still in the middle. 99 percent of them are non ANC followers. My wife is colored and we live in Cape Flats area in Cape Town.
Now for the Israeli part I'm not pro Israel fuck the rest and such. We learned about Israel at school the WW and WWII so on and so on. But our history teacher came from Israel when he was a child. So he told us a lot of things what happened and what the problems is. Funny enough he didn't had a hatred for the germans but explained objectively what Hitler's real ideas where and some of the others. We started to learn about Israeli's assisting us with weaponry and 90 percent of our designs were influence by them. They helped us cause we were fighting a war against Swapo which was backed by the cubans. And it wasn't a war were the enemy is clear as daylight or wearing army clothes. They were gorilla fighters with Soviet weaponry who's main things were ambushes and such. That was a battle no one was going to win but what we did win was when the Cubans landed here with their forces and we nailed about 400 of them in a couple of days. That was the end of the cubans trip to Africa.
But my main influence came with Israel when I started to look at what was going on really in the middle east. Think people here might think I'm a Islam Hater but in fact I have many friends and of my wifes family that is muslim. You can google Colin Stanfield and see what I mean. he's my wifes uncle.
But here the muslim will put their wife and children before their own and wealth. They follow their religion like we do follow ours but there's not the believe that its the only law and those who don't follow are consider the enemy and such. They resent the way woman and children are being treated in the middle east as well as the strict law they adhere to. I will say things about Islamic laws in the middle east because the religion is being used for personal gain to forward the cause of others. If you are brain washed from birth you cant see really what is going on. In democratic countries luckily that strict schooling is not there so the freedom to make up your own mind is there. I always say pink yellow green black white brown what ever color or believe you are when you cut yourself red blood will come out no matter what race. Every human has his own mind and got it for a reason and can make it up himself. But that can only happen when he grew up with a free mind and choices were his own.
In the middle east no. The people were brought up with the believe Israel is evil and must go or be all wiped out. War after war. Ground gave back but its the same thing over and over. So one has come to a reality like they do there will be no peace do whatever to protect your country. So for me its really the small little nation trying to make a living surrounded by people brought up to hate them and to try and drive them from the middle east. There will be no peace the Islamic laws over there ensure that.
Coming back to the apartheid thing and people thinking those times were better is really because all tough they lived in townships locked from the rest until its monday to go to work most of them had jobs working at factories, for farmers in shops there were lots of jobs and employment wasn't hard to find. They even had schools but its the opportunities to reach for bigger goals and to be rich and so wasn't there. Some of them did well. But the majority were always earning low salaries. The people who came from India and Pakistan al tough had a great time. The Portuguese as well. Reason was every little small town there will be a Indian, a Portuguese and a Pakistani. They will have shops where one is a whole sale seller one a fish and chips cafe and the other selling all kinds of goods. I mean doesn't matter the size of the town. They were classed as part of the black population but they could live between the white people or do whatever they want. Now in the old regime people from other color didn't pay taxes. The white people did. So the people from those groups saved their cash thousands by thousands as their businesses were making a huge amount of money tax free. When apartheid ended they started to spend the money buy them posh cars and such. Now the Muslims here which is a big deal pakistani also have one believe. When theyre children are born they will set a xxx amount of money away from them until they old enough to go to Mekka. They are basically setup when they are around 14 to 16 with the money the parents saved up from them. So parts did flourish. We also had our Pagad who tried to use Islam to make people believe they are fighting gangsters where in the end they were lifted out as the biggest drug merchants. But the Gangsters didn't stand back as they did some of their own Mossad sort of things by shooting them in court and disappeared without no one who realized. Both parties were muslim as well. But after a few of their leaders were arrested the extremist terror acts came to a end. Our intelligence forces were trained by Israeli members back then and a lot of tactics use today we got from Israel. I was in the police for 7 years so I learned more from the history of the weapons and what Israel contributed to our training methods and other things. Especially our task force. You can Israeli in them the way they move especially with anti terrorist situations. We just didn't had the experience.
So I'm not standing by a side cause their tough shit ad so I stand by one because the believes and where one is not govern by a religion used by others to help themselves and not think about their country, Israeli leaders think about their country first and they will gain no riches or King treatment out of it like in the Islamic arab nations.
But if you ever cross South Africans in a war just throw them a rugby ball and watch the magic happen