Window for Palestinian state 'rapidly closing': EU

[cybrsage]

Israel refuses to allow Hamas and Fatah to sign a peace treaty in order to more effectively manage their own affairs. Now we're just bouncing non-sequiturs off each other.

No, they are not. They cannot stop the two groups from signing a peace agreement...all Israel can do is not sign it themselves.

The settlements are illegal, are you forgetting this?

No, they are not. In order for you to say this, you have to show the High Contracting Power they took the lands from. There were no high contracting powers who legitimately owned the lands and had them taken away by Israel.

Here is a good little video explaining it. There is a better one in this forum, I will search for it and post it when I find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oY0zU5Lc34

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Arguments have been presented in detail and rejected completely because you are unable/unwilling to read

 

[mrSHEiK124]

No, they are not. In order for you to say this, you have to show the High Contracting Power they took the lands from. There were no high contracting powers who legitimately owned the lands and had them taken away by Israel.

Here is a good little video explaining it. There is a better one in this forum, I will search for it and post it when I find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oY0zU5Lc34

Nice video, they're illegal, and they're an obstacle to peace. Much moreso of an obstacle than any form of belligerence from the marginalized natives of that land. My ancestors (5 generations worth, to the extent of my extended family name, probably much longer) are natives of a razed village inside of the green-line. This is a fact. Primary source. They have less rights in their "settlement" of a refugee camp than the Israelis who've built mountain-top "facts on the ground."

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-iss...ternational-communityinternational-community/
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/TheHumanitarianImpactOfIsraeliInfrastructureTheWestBank_annexes.pdf
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/5aa254a1c8f8b1cb852560e50075d7d5

 

[cybrsage]

AH, here we go, the video I wanted:

Listen to this youtube link so you can really understand it. It is short and easy to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo


Just some quick tidbits:


Israel did not take any land from a nation called Palestine. There has never been a nation called Palestine.

Israel took land from Jordan - which was illegally occupying Judeah and Samaria (they called it the West Bank). No nation recognized Jordan's claim to the land - not even any of the other Arab nations.

UN Resolution 181 was accepted by Jews but not by Arabs so the Arabs launched a war against the Jews.

The "1967 border" was actually setup in 1949, but the Arabs claims this border had no political significance. This means the territores are NOT occupied, but rather DISPUTED territories because there were no previous legal soveriegn in the area to have taken the territories from. Judge Stephen Schwebel, prior President of the International Court of Justice, holds this legal view, so it is not just some crackpot idea.

 

[cybrsage]

Arguments have been presented in detail and rejected completely because you are unable/unwilling to read

You linked to google...that is not an argument, it is a search engine.

Show the actual arguments you are making, the support for said arguments, and the links to where this support can be read in context.

Seriously, you think linking to google is actually supporting yourself?

 

[cybrsage]

Nice video, they're illegal, and they're an obstacle to peace. Much moreso of an obstacle than any form of belligerence from the marginalized natives of that land. My ancestors (5 generations worth, to the extent of my extended family name, probably much longer) are natives of a razed village inside of the green-line. This is a fact. Primary source. They have less rights in their "settlement" of a refugee camp than the Israelis who've built mountain-top "facts on the ground."

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-iss...ternational-communityinternational-community/
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/TheHumanitarianImpactOfIsraeliInfrastructureTheWestBank_annexes.pdf
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/5aa254a1c8f8b1cb852560e50075d7d5

Then you guys need to vote for leaders who will actually negotiate a peace agreement instead of voting for leaders who allow anti-tank missles to be fired at clearly marked yellow school buses full of children.

The suffering can end, but only through negotiation. Until you guys vote in a government which is willing to negotiate a peace, you will continue to suffer due to their actions.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

You sound like a mouthpiece for the Israeli Ministry of the Interior. I have no business here.

Israel did not take any land from a nation called Palestine. There has never been a nation called Palestine.

Thanks for the history lesson, Mr. Gingrich. This is not what we're discussing. Israel continues to marginalize 3-5 million people who are under its administrative control. I didn't cite any specific instances of anti-Arab racism or sentiment in Israel because this fact is widely accepted outside of pro-Israel rhetoric thumping folk like yourself. Yisrael Beitenyu campaign ads? The Likud party charter? The advertising campaign and psychological support hotline in Petah Tikva for Jewish girls dating Arab men . The endless surveys where the majority of Israeli Jews express the idea that Arabs are inferior, dirty, or uneducated?

The ISRAELI government, all parties, whether left or right wing, explicitly state in their charter the desire for a state from the sea to the Jordan River. And some nutsos go further.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

And just so you're not mistaken, I'm utterly and equally disgusted with every faction of Palestinian politics. The level of corruption wrought by foreign influence and aid money is unfathomable. I recall a report from a new Palestinian Finance Minister taking office a few years ago where he cited ~1 billion USD in squandered or missing aid money at the hands of both Fatah and Hamas. While Israel may be guilty of marginalizing Palestinians, sadly, the Palestinians in charge are guilty as well.

 

[cybrsage]

Until the Palestinians gain control of their own government, they will continue to be used as pawn and tossed away by their own government.

However, in order for Isarel to have taken Palestinian lands...there has to have been a Palestine for these lands to have been taken from. So yes, it is relevant.

Still waiting for you to show the High Contracting Power whose lands Israel is occupying. Without one (or more), there can be no occupation...they become disputed lands.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Until the Palestinians gain control of their own government, they will continue to be used as pawn and tossed away by their own government.

However, in order for Isarel to have taken Palestinian lands...there has to have been a Palestine for these lands to have been taken from. So yes, it is relevant.

Still waiting for you to show the High Contracting Power whose lands Israel is occupying. Without one (or more), there can be no occupation...they become disputed lands.

Your technicality does not negate the disenfranchisement of 3-5 million Arabs. Call it whatever you want

 

[JEDIYoda]

And just so you're not mistaken, I'm utterly and equally disgusted with every faction of Palestinian politics. The level of corruption wrought by foreign influence and aid money is unfathomable. I recall a report from a new Palestinian Finance Minister taking office a few years ago where he cited ~1 billion USD in squandered or missing aid money at the hands of both Fatah and Hamas. While Israel may be guilty of marginalizing Palestinians, sadly, the Palestinians in charge are guilty as well.

So we all agree that the people who call themselves "Palestinians" are their own worse enemie!!

We can also agree that in order for there to be peace in that region the people who call themselves "Palestinians" will have to vote into power a government that wants peace and does not call for the destruction of Israel!

Shalom!

 

[kylebisme]

Listen to this youtube link so you can really understand it. It is short and easy to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo

You might also like the other videos here from the same unabashedly bigoted compulsive lairs behind the one you linked. Regardless, did you miss my refutation of your arguments here, or are you just ignoring it?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

So we all agree that the people who call themselves "Palestinians" are their own worse enemie!!

We can also agree that in order for there to be peace in that region the people who call themselves "Palestinians" will have to vote into power a government that wants peace and does not call for the destruction of Israel!

Shalom!

I wish you Peace, and I wish Peace upon you. Perhaps some lessons in spelling, logic, and rhetoric as well.

Your statement makes no factual claims, and doesn't frame an argument. It's more of the same. What of the Palestinians when they had no elected government (which is not sovereign! by any international or exterior definition, their government is anything but! it's a thinly veiled replacement for the Israeli Civil Administration, and you and I know this). Whose fault was it then? Between 1967 and 1994. Who was responsible for their peril? Themselves?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

You might also like the other videos here from the same unabashedly bigoted compulsive lairs behind the one you linked. Regardless, did you miss my refutation of your arguments here, or are you just ignoring it?

Selective consciousness.

They're probably ignoring gems like this too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JA6vRC1xW_c
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/april232011/jesus-israel-tk.php

 

[kylebisme]

Arguments have been presented in detail and rejected completely because you are unable/unwilling to read

More vague claims without citing anything to back them up. Really, do you ever do anything else?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th-7w1qkalg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGSJPIm0bs&feature=related

JANUARY 2012 - Ethiopian Jews rally against racism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYjuxifYxIc

 

[mrSHEiK124]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgaLcAUI_7I

This accurately reflects the settlers I've interacted with. And those who support them.

 

[Lemon law]

I totally agree with Kylebisme here, if Israel wishes to regard the West Bank as DISPUTED territory pending a mutually negotiated agreement by Israel and the Palestinian people, than BOTH ISRAEL and the Palestinians equally have no rights to NO NEW SETTLEMENTS on DISPUTED TERRITORY. And that includes EAST JERUSALEM ALSO.

NOR do Lord Balfour, and a few old ancient out of power poobahs, add any luster to the Israeli arguments. As an equal or larger number of current and past world leaders think quite differently.

Its why any basis of a future Israeli Palestinian agreement has to be predicated on a return to 1967 borders and a retroactive settlement freeze.

Nor for that matter was the 1967 Israeli war a war of Israeli defense. As Israel attacked first. As Arabs mobilized their armies on their side of the border, and Israel did the same. As the conflict turned into a protracted stalemate in which both sides should have peacefully ended. And instead it was Israel that attacked first and without justification. The Israeli motivation was simply economic. The Arabs had a perfect right to park their armies wherever they choose as long it was on their territory, but Israel could not economically afford to keep their citizen soldiers on the border for long without collapsing their domestic economy.

 

[kylebisme]

As Arabs mobilized their armies on their side of the border, and Israel did the same.

More specifically, Israel was building up forces on their border with Syria and threatening to conquer Damascus, which pretty much forced Egypt to make a stand on their border due to their mutual defense pact with Syria, and then Israel claimed that as justification to launch their attack on Egypt, Syria, and Jordan in one fell swoop and grab a bunch of territory that their leaders had been drooling over since the beginnings of the Zionist project.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

More specifiably, Israel was building up forces on their border with Syria and threatening to conquer Damascus, which pretty much forced Egypt to make a stand on their border due to their mutual defense pact with Syria, and then Israel claimed that as justification to launch their attack on Egypt, Syria, and Jordan in one fell swoop and grab a bunch of territory that their leaders had been drooling over since the beginnings of the Zionist project.

Take your facts somewhere else! They've no use for them here. :awe:

 

[EagleKeeper]

I totally agree with Kylebisme here, if Israel wishes to regard the West Bank as DISPUTED territory pending a mutually negotiated agreement by Israel and the Palestinian people, than BOTH ISRAEL and the Palestinians equally have no rights to NO NEW SETTLEMENTS on DISPUTED TERRITORY. And that includes EAST JERUSALEM ALSO.

NOR do Lord Balfour, and a few old ancient out of power poobahs, add any luster to the Israeli arguments. As an equal or larger number of current and past world leaders think quite differently.

Its why any basis of a future Israeli Palestinian agreement has to be predicated on a return to 1967 borders and a retroactive settlement freeze.

Nor for that matter was the 1967 Israeli war a war of Israeli defense. As Israel attacked first. As Arabs mobilized their armies on their side of the border, and Israel did the same. As the conflict turned into a protracted stalemate in which both sides should have peacefully ended. And instead it was Israel that attacked first and without justification. The Israeli motivation was simply economic. The Arabs had a perfect right to park their armies wherever they choose as long it was on their territory, but Israel could not economically afford to keep their citizen soldiers on the border for long without collapsing their domestic economy.

Bull

Russia had played the Arabs feeding info that Israel was preparing to attack.
the Arabs were lining up to attack; but were preempted.

There is a timeline that while Israel was going after Egypt, Jordan was coming after Israel along with paratroopers from Egypt.

Arabs were itching for another showdown; Soviets and the Palestinians were eager to oblige.

from Wiki

On May 19, 1967, Egypt expelled UNEF observers,[43] and deployed 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula.[44] It again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping,[45][46] returning the region to the way it was in 1956 when Israel was blockaded.
On May 30, 1967, Jordan signed a mutual defense pact with Egypt. Egypt mobilized Sinai units, crossing UN lines (after having expelled the UN border monitors) and mobilized and massed on Israel's southern border. On June 5, Israel launched an attack on Egypt. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) destroyed most of the Egyptian Air Force in a surprise attack, then turned east to destroy the Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces

In May 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.[20] Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[21][22] UN Secretary-General U Thant proposed that the UNEF force be redeployed on the Israeli side of the border, but this was rejected by Israel despite U.S. pressure.[23] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or a justification for war.[24][25] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May. 22–23. On 27 May he stated "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." [26] On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan.[27] They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent.

Expect that these were for joint peacetime maneuvers

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[33] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[34] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[35]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".

False Egyptian reports of a crushing victory against the Israeli army[51] and forecasts that Egyptian forces would soon be attacking Tel Aviv influenced Syria's willingness to enter the war. Syrian artillery began shelling northern Israel, and twelve Syrian jets attacked Israeli settlements in the Galilee.

Jordan was not planning a defense, but offense

 

[Lemon law]

I may have my Walter Middy plans to Rob the first National bank, Fort Knox, and why I am at I lust after Fred Thompson's wife because she is hot hot hot.

Plans are at best thought crimes, but until thoughts are implemented into illegal actions, the initial thoughts mean nothing.

And cheer up EK, the Pentagon has current contingency plans to attack and overwhelm Israel and every other nations on earth too. So do the British, the Russians, the Turks, the Iranians, and quite a large list of military powers.

But in 1967, Israel had equal plans and the distinction is, Israel acted on their plans while the Jordanians did not.

In short, EK, you have no valid argument. But once again you convinced your self.

Your problem EK, while world tolerance for Israeli bullshit erodes ever more rapidly every day, you fail to convince the very world leaders who will ultimately make the crucial decisions regarding a Palestinians state, an Israeli settlement freeze, and other mid-east issues.

 

[Nebor]

Your technicality does not negate the disenfranchisement of 3-5 million Arabs. Call it whatever you want

Why are you so concerned about them compared to every other Arab in the world, virtually all of whom are "disenfranchised?" None of them live in democracies, so logically we can reach the conclusion that they don't wish to live in a democracy. If anything Israel is trying to treat the Palestinians as they would be treated by any other Arab government, like dogs.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Why are you so concerned about them compared to every other Arab in the world, virtually all of whom are "disenfranchised?" None of them live in democracies, so logically we can reach the conclusion that they don't wish to live in a democracy. If anything Israel is trying to treat the Palestinians as they would be treated by any other Arab government, like dogs.

It doesn't end with you, does it?

Because there are no other Arabs in the world who are still dealing with a government that refuses to acknowledge the fact that they even exist. Israel's "right to recognition" is flaunted, while Israel conveniently ignores the reality of recognizing the people they took the land from. I'm not asking them to (or you) to recognize any wrongdoing, I'm asking you to recognize several million people, who quite frankly, want nothing more than sovereignty over what little they have left of their land. Nothing more than dignity instead of strip searches or road blocks. I speak as one of them.

 

[cybrsage]

This accurately reflects the settlers I've interacted with. And those who support them.

Which city in the region do you live in?