Windows Longhorn

[EeyoreX]

Windows isn't the #1 selling OS desktop or server for nothing. As you can see, people who have a choice will make a choice. Such as those using Linux over Windows, or such as those using ATI cards vs. Nvidia cards in the consumer market. Nobody forced me to use anything, I just want THE best. The same as everyone else.

Most people don't choose, they just use what the computer comes with and when they want a new video card they ask their more knowledgable cousin or friend.

Agreed. Windows is the #1 selling OS because Joe Consumer walks into Best Buy/CompUSA or goes to Dell, etc, etc and buys what they feed them. Not because they had to go to the store and look at software boxes and pick one or the other.

Now you mean to tell me Linux is more advanced? They don't even have the basics of useability solved ... how on earth can you say Linux is better?

Yes I say it's more advanced in many ways. Is it intuitive? Not really, but neither is Windows, it's just that people already know how to use Windows. If you had exactly 0 experience with either OS, both would equally difficult.

You want to bust out with the "They don't even have the basics of useability solved" crap? I live with a person working on two things. 1) A Master's in HCI (Human-Computer Interaction) and 2) at a usability company. She knows a thing or more about usability. Guess what? The OS you make out to be the best has plenty of it's own usability issues. Check them out. Visit the usability specialists websites. Do some research instead of opening cans of worms you may not know anything about. The Windows GUI is more mature and intuative (sometimes) than Linux. Mature and intuative do not equal advanced.

Windows NT admins are a dime a dozen, and need much less support with a much smaller learning curve.

They're so common and cheap because they're not really admins, they're users who think they're admins and they're the reason I'm still getting CodeRed attempts on my web server.

I find it interesting, that at one point you say "you get what you pay for" and then talk about the cheapness at which your exaulted admins can be had... You are right in this case, often times you do get what you pay for; a self-procalimed "power user" charging "administrator" prices to not know half of what either class of user should know.

Eitherway, I can tell you which one is MUCH faster to get up and running reliably, and which one is easier to properly secure. Its Windows.

If course you're doing to say that, you're a Windows user. Apache is 'secure' out of the box, php is easily installed with 'apt-get install php4' for me, ftp server would just be 'apt-get install proftpd' and the users would have to setup their own .htaccess files on either OS unless you make all the passwords the same which would defeat the purpose.

First, I want to say that not all of us Windows users think this way. Let me, as a Windows user, ask you, chroner, another Windows user, this; If Windows is so easy to properly secure, and there are so many of your touted "admins" for NT-based systems, can you tell me why so many Windows systems are not secure? I'll tell you why. A variety or reasons; the admins are not admins at all. They are users (as was said) who think more of themselves than they should. Maybe there are just a lot of lazy admins who refuse to "administer"? Either OS is easy to properly secure if you know what you are doing. Conversly, either is open to attack if you don't know what you are doing (or do, and just don't do it).

I just don't get how you are so blind.

Oh, the irony.

You get what you pay for ... imagine if they gave away free cars. Wow

I'll remember to avoid the hospitals in canada then...

LOL! Paying more does not always mean it's better. I can't believe any intelligent (non-born-rich) person actually thinks "more money = better quality).

Another good thing about Windows is it is more forgiving. Try booting Windows with a flaky stick of ram .. it will still boot, and let you do everything you normally would 90% of the time.

That is the absolute stupidest thing you've said yet. Bad memory is bad memory no matter what OS, if you have bad memory Windows will crash just as randomly, it just depends on what needs to use the section of bad memory.

I'm not sure if that's the stupidest thing... It's up there though.

I want to take the time, as a Windows user, to apoligize. Not all of us are complete fanatics. Some of use do realize Windows isn't always the best (even if it is my personal favorite).

\Dan

 

[Flatline]

I just have to chime in and thank the last poster for his ability to remain civil. Not all of us *nix users are zealouts either; if you really like your Windows or Mac box, that's great...I love my linux boxes and that's what I'm sticking with for the time being. All OSes have their place. I just can't stand the "it's better because more people use it" argument, and I hear it much too often.

 

[stephbu]

Originally posted by: DaTT
Has anyone used this yet (the 4051 build). I must say....its quite the change from XP......a nice one

For some reason I was confused by the title and opening mesage of this of this thread vs. the content of roughly the last 40 messages. Perhaps next-time we should take the left turn at Alberquque.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: stephbu

Originally posted by: DaTT
Has anyone used this yet (the 4051 build). I must say....its quite the change from XP......a nice one

For some reason I was confused by the title and opening mesage of this of this thread vs. the content of roughly the last 40 messages. Perhaps next-time we should take the left turn at Alberquque.

Ya well crap happens. It's just us linux people trying to supress the good work that MS is doing with longhorn and how it will completely obsolete every other operating system in existance. We are just scared that's all.

 

[peonyu]

If Linux had half as many games as Windows does then Linux would be better. But it doesnt, so its not better IMO.

 

[Nothinman]

If number of games are what you rate something on why not just get a console?

 

[peonyu]

Cause I like PC games.

And Windows can do everything that Linux can do, some of it worse like being a server, and some better like being a good desktop OS and gaming.
But if Linux had XP's game library then id use that instead since Linux is more stable and 'tweakable'.
I guess im a non fanboy. :moon:

 

[imported_Phil]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Speaking of pirates, Kira Knightlinger is hot.

Hooo yeah. She can shiver me timbers any day


Sorry. It's early here.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: DopeFiend

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Speaking of pirates, Kira Knightlinger is hot.

Hooo yeah. She can shiver me timbers any day


Sorry. It's early here.

Ok, I give up, who's that?
Google didn't return one damn hit.

 

[Flatline]

The girl from Pirates of the Caribbean and Bend it Like Beckham

 

[drag]

Don't you mean: Keira Knightley?


No wonder I couldn't find it in google!

I thought you were talking about some sort of comic book or cartoon/movie character or something...

 

[imported_Phil]

Yes, her. She's fit.

 

[chorner]

lol, guys ...

1) Windows is the most popular OS because Microsoft has worked Windows XP to what it is today all the way from DOS to the latest Windows Server 2003. Why did everyone jump on the Windows 95 bandwagon? Because Unix and Linux were better? Come on now. Windows is where it is today because it is a BETTER O.S then everything up until this point, and may remain that way for a while to come. If you don't think so, I'm not sure what planet you're from; but it isn't this one. Now wether or not there could be a better OS, sure there could; but there just plain isn't at the moment. Even though Idoxhash uses the word "dun" to describe his feelings, he as a blatant beginner is telling his honest opinion, and that counts for something.

2) I've not been in public school now for how many years? Who cares wether the kids are learning on PC's now? If you want to talk about that, I've ONLY ever used MAC's and Unix boxes at school. I have never seen a PC with Windows on it once in all my school days, up until University where for our C++ course we used PC's loaded with Windows 2000.

3) More money does not = better!? Again I'm not sure what world you're in. When you make your living off of what you program, you either win or lose completely. There is no half-way. Microsoft isn't about to lose the race any time soon for that very reason. They make the best multi-purpose OS'es money can buy. Even EeyoreX, I'm sure you can agree, seeming as though you 'claim' to favour Windows despite the fact you seem to deny that you get what you pay for .. which is extremely odd considering the fact you run and prefer Windows. I'll give one guy $1000 for any car, and another guy $40,000 ... who will have the better car? If I gave you a free car, it'd be a winter beater worth nothing .... hence, free. While it may be worth something to you if you cannot afford a car at all and need one; it is still a pile of junk. Just like Linux.

How about this, I give you $1,000,000 to make a movie .. lets say you're making Xmen-3. Hire anybody you need, and pay for whatever your costs are to make the best movie you can with that cool $1 mill. We'll then compare it to the multi-million $$ Xmen-3 produced by a company with a real budget.

I guess by your logic the $1 mill budgeted movie will be better? I can hear it now *some of the best movies are ....* yeah whatever bud.


4) They give out masters for computer-interaction!?? LOL ... I should go get a masters in PS2 gaming; would go nicely beside someones computer-interaction masters. What do they teach you? To identify wether a mouse feels good in your hand, and how fast it will lead to carpal tunnel syndrom? hahahaha give me a break. I guess she would know all about how the default Windows XP start-menu is clumsy compared to the 'classic' start menu. Perhaps I could e-mail her and chat for a while about it? lol! Come on!

5)Finally about being more forgiving when you have a bad stick of RAM. Are you two really that stupid? -sorry, couldn't resist that time haha- Lets say you need to finish filing an important document, and you have a stick of RAM gone faulty. You don't have time to grab a new stick and mess with things; especially when you see your Kernel Panic, you'll go nuts with panic yourself when you need to submit the document ON TIME. Well hey, look at that Windows boots and still lets me do some basic operations (excluding your favorite 3D game of course), and lets me finish the important document before I go ahead and take down the system for a while to figure out what is wrong, and eventually find its a bad stick of RAM. What would happen if your resident computer guy in the office had gone home early? Awefully bad place you would be stuck in running Linux now wouldn't it?

I guess you guys don't do important work though, so how could you even comprehend something like that? Genius boys, pure genius.

Finally, you need an admin for everything in the office space running Linux. Trust me, I don't think your secretary will know how to compile her own program when it comes time to installing a new product, or software update. Sure there are RPM's, but not for everything. You would be messed if by chance you were missing some dependencies on some of the machines. Heck, at my old office we just passed around the CD for whatever we needed and installed the software one-by-one; that way we didn't need to set any of us, or all of us off course while we waited for the acting admin at the time to do a network-update. Time is money my friends. Keep Linux behind closed doors where it belongs as your mail server or something and leave Windows for the workstations. Although heck, I guess you can't run Linux if you like the features of Exchange, and having every one of your employees log into a Windows domain controller for painless administration of user rights, updates and workflow... which is a little further along in development then any freeware offering

Sorry guys ... Linux isn't ready yet. It has been admitted time and tim eagain, why can't you?

Anyhow, thats my last reply .. you guys are obviously blinded for whatever reason. Even the guys who favors Windows is arguing against himself, myself, and even IBM (RedHat). No matter what you guys say, its not the truth. Perhaps someday everyones desktop machines, and servers will be running Linux and have a user-base like Windows? I don't think so.

Not until they get rid of 1) the way Linux handles loading drivers 2) a proper program installation method which is more like Windows and OSX 3) A standardized package managed by a single source ala FreeBSD, Unix, OSX or Windows. 4) a single standardized multimedia API (oh but wait, then it wouldn't be Linux? lol) 5) better Industry Support ... and Support and more Support 6) Call it, Lindows haha 7) Make some money off OS sales so they can hire a REAL FULL TIME development staff, such as like what IBM is doing with RedHat. 8) get rid of you monkeys who tell poor innocent computer illerterate fools who can barely use Windows that Linux is easier; because it is not. 9) While the icons are nice (and I like the look better then Windows icons) they are bloody childish. Linux needs a more professionally polished look and feel; I don't think they'll become all too popular as a desktop OS looking like a Lego Kids workstation.

Driver management, update management, installation of programs and the OS, industry backing, game support, hardware support, faster booting, faster loading, more professional, more organized, easier to learn, easier to troubleshoot (no need to search and have to know an extremely disorganized placement of configuration files, which can deviate from distribution to distribution depending on the included software), better documentation, and above all else massive hardware and software compatibility combine to make Windows more advanced than Linux.

There are your points for you. Nobody really gives a crud about low_level IRQ management, process management, and hardware level optimization ... so if you want to use that as a fight against Linux's advancement over Windows it is a moot point .. it takes more than optimized thread handling and memory management to be a GOOD all around operating system. Heck, the Linux Kernel has been playing catchup since the beggining, and for good reason. Look at who the development team is. Do they all go to work, and meet face-to-face in an office every day? That alone will hamper your performance ... like taking an online University course. Sure you can take them; but they 1) stink and are a complete joke compared to the training, life contacts, and opportunites while actually pysically going to University and 2) You tend to start to get a little whacked in your thinking if all you do is contact people over MSN everyday. In otherwords, you can't expect an unorganized and slapped together development team to produce a completely organized effort. I bet you all use MSN too don't you? Good old Microsoft!

I could go on ... but you fools will have to make your replies even longer, so I'll knock it off.

You guys are a bunch of loones, and yes I like to name-call you bunch of hippies Take off your sox if you're going to wear sandals btw. Looks bad with your Hawaii shirts and khakis hahaha

 

[Nothinman]

1) Windows is the most popular OS because Microsoft has worked Windows XP to what it is today all the way from DOS to the latest Windows Server 2003. Why did everyone jump on the Windows 95 bandwagon? Because Unix and Linux were better? Come on now. Windows is where it is today because it is a BETTER O.S then everything up until this point, and may remain that way for a while to come. If you don't think so, I'm not sure what planet you're from; but it isn't this one. Now wether or not there could be a better OS, sure there could; but there just plain isn't at the moment. Even though Idoxhash uses the word "dun" to describe his feelings, he as a blatant beginner is telling his honest opinion, and that counts for something.

Everyone jumped on the Win95 bandwagon because DOS/Win311 sucked and Win95 offered salvation for that. A big problem is that UNIX only runs on very expensive hardware and Linux was something that very few people had heard of. If you really think DOS and Win95 was better than UNIX or even Linux of the time you're farther gone than I thought. Do you really think people used DOS on 386s because it was fun and easy?

2) I've not been in public school now for how many years? Who cares wether the kids are learning on PC's now? If you want to talk about that, I've ONLY ever used MAC's and Unix boxes at school. I have never seen a PC with Windows on it once in all my school days, up until University where for our C++ course we used PC's loaded with Windows 2000.

Maybe Canadian schools don't have the budget for it but my high school had a lab of Apple IIes, some diskless 386s for DOS and Pascal and a 'new' 486 lab that came with DOS/Win311 and was being upgraded to Win95 when I left.

3) More money does not = better!? Again I'm not sure what world you're in. When you make your living off of what you program, you either win or lose completely. There is no half-way. Microsoft isn't about to lose the race any time soon for that very reason. They make the best multi-purpose OS'es money can buy. Even EeyoreX, I'm sure you can agree, seeming as though you 'claim' to favour Windows despite the fact you seem to deny that you get what you pay for .. which is extremely odd considering the fact you run and prefer Windows. I'll give one guy $1000 for any car, and another guy $40,000 ... who will have the better car? If I gave you a free car, it'd be a winter beater worth nothing .... hence, free. While it may be worth something to you if you cannot afford a car at all and need one; it is still a pile of junk. Just like Linux.

Not in all cases. Sure for a movie you need a lot of money because you need thousands of people, costumes, people, etc but you can't apply the same needs to everything. The same can't be said for software because huge software projects can be handled by a small number of people in a much shorter amount of time with less resources. Linux was started by 1 man because he couldn't stand DOS and UNIX was too expensive, as much as you seem to think Linux sucks from a user interaction perspective you can't deny the speed at which him and other kernel developers put out a good kernel.

And for the record my car was free and I prefer it to many newer cars, 'better' is a relative term and I plan on driving my free car until it wears out.

4) They give out masters for computer-interaction!?? LOL ... I should go get a masters in PS2 gaming; would go nicely beside someones computer-interaction masters. What do they teach you? To identify wether a mouse feels good in your hand, and how fast it will lead to carpal tunnel syndrom? hahahaha give me a break. I guess she would know all about how the default Windows XP start-menu is clumsy compared to the 'classic' start menu. Perhaps I could e-mail her and chat for a while about it? lol! Come on!

I guess this proves how little you know about UI design, great way to prove you're the idiot here.

5)Finally about being more forgiving when you have a bad stick of RAM. Are you two really that stupid? -sorry, couldn't resist that time haha- Lets say you need to finish filing an important document, and you have a stick of RAM gone faulty. You don't have time to grab a new stick and mess with things; especially when you see your Kernel Panic, you'll go nuts with panic yourself when you need to submit the document ON TIME. Well hey, look at that Windows boots and still lets me do some basic operations (excluding your favorite 3D game of course), and lets me finish the important document before I go ahead and take down the system for a while to figure out what is wrong, and eventually find its a bad stick of RAM. What would happen if your resident computer guy in the office had gone home early? Awefully bad place you would be stuck in running Linux now wouldn't it?

This proves even more how little you know about how a computer actually works. You have exactly the same chance of Linux working as Windows with a bad stick of memory, the fact that Linux crashed on you and Windows didn't is pure luck. The OS and the MMU can't tell what addresses point to bad memory so as soon as one of them is used the data is invalid, if it was a kernel data structure the kernel will panic or oops or BSOD in the case of Windows, if it was just the place where a few words of your paper were chances are random data will be saved in your paper instead of what you typed, again totally random.

I guess you guys don't do important work though, so how could you even comprehend something like that? Genius boys, pure genius.

Depends on your defintion of 'important' I guess, I'm sure the ~1000 employees at the company I work for find my services important. But I'm sure our clients wouldn't because I don't interact with them directly although I do impact their operations occasionally when their contacts need my help.

Not until they get rid of 1) the way Linux handles loading drivers

Oh please tell me what's wrong with the way Linux handles drivers, I've love to hear this.

2) a proper program installation method which is more like Windows and OSX

Like which one? Windows and OS X handle it in completely different ways.

A standardized package managed by a single source ala FreeBSD, Unix, OSX or Windows.

Because we all know that Apple controls all software for OS X and Microsoft all software for Windows...

5) better Industry Support ... and Support and more Support

Do you mean app support or real support? The former will come eventually, the latter is already here.

7) Make some money off OS sales so they can hire a REAL FULL TIME development staff, such as like what IBM is doing with RedHat.

Most of the kernel developers are already paid to work on it, most of the Gnome and Ximian teams are split between RedHat and Novell and most of the KDE team is hired by SuSe/Novell now. And many others, like Linus, are paid by OSDL. Do you have any clue what you're talking about?

8) get rid of you monkeys who tell poor innocent computer illerterate fools who can barely use Windows that Linux is easier; because it is not

I don't think anyone here made the blanket statement that Linux was easier, better yes but not always easier. And there are a ton of things that are easier on Linux once you get used to working with it, I'm to the point now where Windows is a major PITA to work with and I'd much rather do anything on my Linux installation.

9) While the icons are nice (and I like the look better then Windows icons) they are bloody childish. Linux needs a more professionally polished look and feel; I don't think they'll become all too popular as a desktop OS looking like a Lego Kids workstation.

Childish Icons? Maybe you should go to college and take a UI class or something, you're really reaching here.

Nobody really gives a crud about low_level IRQ management, process management, and hardware level optimization

People doing the kernel development do, as much as you are definately not one of them, they do exist.

Heck, the Linux Kernel has been playing catchup since the beggining, and for good reason.

I love it when you make broad statements with no factual backing, why don't you let us know where you're getting all this mis-information?

Do they all go to work, and meet face-to-face in an office every day?

No, but who cares? I don't see half the people I work with every day because email is more efficient and it's nice to have an electronic paper trail.

I could go on ... but you fools will have to make your replies even longer, so I'll knock it off.

I'd love to see you go on, this is pure comedy.

 

[EeyoreX]

Even EeyoreX, I'm sure you can agree, seeming as though you 'claim' to favour Windows despite the fact you seem to deny that you get what you pay for .. which is extremely odd considering the fact you run and prefer Windows. I'll give one guy $1000 for any car, and another guy $40,000 ... who will have the better car? If I gave you a free car, it'd be a winter beater worth nothing .... hence, free.

No. I do not agree. I paid $100 for my car. My car looks good, runs great and gets me where I need to go. My car is running fine while I have seen several newer cars unable to start in the cold weather here, or just plain not work. I get in my $100 tank of a car, turn the key and drive off. The guy sitting on the side of the road in his $40,000 broken down car is not nearly as happy as I am driving by in my cheap@$$ reliable car. I'd guess while he's sitting on the side of the road he's not thinking his car is better anymore.

And that is correct. I do prefer Windows. But I am mature enough to know that just because I prefer it, does not always make it better overall. It's better for what I want and need to do. I never claimed Linux was ready for "desktop prime time", but that doesn't mean Linux is inferior to Windows. I could argue that Windows was not ready for desktop prime time until Windows XP. All the 9x versions of Windows sucked, and the earlier NT based OSes were not designed for the non-corporate desktop. Yes, everyone used Windows 95 and 98. But that is simply because there was no viable alternative, not because it was the best. Too bad you don't understand the simple fact that being the only choice doesn't always automatically make you the best choice. I suppose you think dictators "are the best" because they rule everyone and everyone has to like it. After all, there is no viable option other than the dictator, so he must be the best...

4) They give out masters for computer-interaction!?? LOL ... I should go get a masters in PS2 gaming; would go nicely beside someones computer-interaction masters. What do they teach you? To identify wether a mouse feels good in your hand, and how fast it will lead to carpal tunnel syndrom? hahahaha give me a break. I guess she would know all about how the default Windows XP start-menu is clumsy compared to the 'classic' start menu. Perhaps I could e-mail her and chat for a while about it? lol! Come on!

I guess this proves how little you know about UI design, great way to prove you're the idiot here.

Again, I have to agree, this is just another brilliant example of just how ignorant you truely are. I also gave you the option to look up for yourself the usability issues Windows has. Obviously, you declined as it may interfere with your preconceived notions of the alleged superiority of Windows.

I'd love to see you go on, this is pure comedy.

Yes, do go on. Continue to prove how mature you are. Also, I can also come back here for a laugh from time to time.

\Dan