That was Media Player, not IE.They removed IE for EU, so obviously it can be done.
Originally posted by: BD2003
Originally posted by: Slackware
Originally posted by: BD2003
Except it is NOT fixed in Vista, the user gets used to click accept and in a week you can get him to click accept to a popup that says "remove your balls right now with a blowtorch" without any problem.
Protected mode does not really help either, neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.
OTOH, i could probably make a description for a linux noob that involved cd / && rm -rf
In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.
the point is that most users are idiots and will click accept or copy and paste anything, they have no idea what they are doing anyway.
Well, thats the problem with UAC - the average linux user is likely to be more savvy than windows users. A linux user would tend to know WHY they're entering the password/clicking the prompt. And there's nothing MS can do about idiot users. But regardless, MS did what they could. I agree that its so intrusive and commonplace that it has the net effect of crying wolf.
And I'm personally not a fan of IE7, I use opera. MS certainly did program IE too deeply into the core of windows, and now that it's standard and expected, it's not quite so easy to dig it out. Protected mode is pretty much the best they can do without breaking apps that rely on the core OS browser functionality. That functionality does have it's uses, and although I know how to avoid a virus, most people apparently do not, and the benefit is far outweighed by the disadvantages.
As far as drivers go - thats a problem with the manufacturers that write the drivers, not MS. I've personally only had recent driver problems with creative cards, but then again, I've never NOT had a problem with creative cards, no matter the OS.
And you don't have to enter your password as the only user on your computer, the way it will be in most cases is that the user enters the admin password and his user password and then he runs on the default, which is his user accoundt with admin rights by clicking accept.
They removed IE for EU, so obviously it can be done.
Take note, i am NOT bashing MS, if you noted my response, i bashed common linux practices by most new users harder than i did MS noob practices.
True. Entering the password every time would only be for non-admins. I personally think they're just trying to soften the blow and ease users into the whole "Don't always run as admin" thing. Unfortunately, they're forced to cater to the general idiot user, and there's no feasible way around that. But thats an issue of general population security.
As far as your own personal security goes, you have every right to run yourself as a general user and input that password. So while you can say UAC is a joke and won't solve security problems for most windows users, it can certainly solve some of your own, and thats the real issue at hand.
Although I have heard rumors that the next major windows release will break compatibility with ALL current apps. After 20 years, it's about time to start fresh - hopefully they can make some huge, much needed changes without having to worry about legacy apps.
Originally posted by: stash
That was Media Player, not IE.They removed IE for EU, so obviously it can be done.
Oh please.By all observers with vested inerest in discarding it you mean?
You can't be serious... http://projects.info-pull.com/mokb/It's kinda strange that the only real module with regards to the linux kernel that has had a serious security problem for the last seven years is a BINARY CLOSED SOURCE MODULE, wouldn't you say?
(Trolltech makes KDE, QT4 based KDE4 will pretty much make KDE3 packages obsolete in a day).
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.
Just like in any other system, the kernel is there to arbitrate access to the hardware so it needs access to it. Hell on Linux I can run 'cat /dev/urandom > /dev/mem' and overwrite all of my system memory, does that mean the kernel shouldn't have access to my memory? Have you used the nVidia drivers on Linux? They're no more stable than the Windows drivers and can oops the kernel just like any other module, same with sound on Linux.
Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.
IE was never integrated with the kernel. MSHTML is depended upon by a lot of the shell and other parts of Windows, but it's nowhere near the kernel.
In a long line of other commands, they are used to copying and pasting, or stick it in a script that made that a cron job, wonder how many machines i could hit in three months, 1000, 100000? Probably, maybe more.
Within the last 3 months or so someone noticed that their apt repo had been added to some list of "must have repos" on the Ubuntu forums. He didn't like this cause it caused his bandwidth usage to skyrocket so he replaced one of his packages with one that replaced the user's wallpaper with a scary warning and disabled the user's ability to change their wallpaper. People are too trusting no matter what software is being used.
neither does the offload of the drivers into userspace, moving the problem won't make it go away.
So essentially the only way to fix everyone's computer is to disable all of the software and turn it into an electric heater?
You're still here? Do you even know what the hell you are talking about? Clearly not. WDDM is largely implemented in userland: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau...ng/html/WinVistaDisplayDriverModel.asp.For example: Microsoft is still integrating features directly in the kernel. WDDM and DRM controls. These things should NOT be in the kernel layer. These things can be done outside the kernel.
Because the browser (any browser) is pretty much the biggest attack surface on any machine? This has nothing to do with kernel mode.If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
Originally posted by: BD2003
Windows XP:
Everyone is set as Administrator. When infected by a virus, the virus has admin rights to the machine.
Fixed in Vista - UAC.
Browser is integrated with the kernel. When there is an exploit in the browser, it immediately turns into a critical exploits because the entire system is in jeopardy.
IE7 runs in a protected mode, away from the kernel.
System files can be tampered with without approval by the OS. The OS doesn't block programs from tampering with system files.
Not entirely true - WFP will throw a fit whenever a system file has been modified. System restore also keeps a good copy of system files just in case.
The registry. If the registry is destoryed, the OS doesn't boot. The registry can go corrupt very easily.
The last known working registry is automatically backed up, and you can easily choose it on boot. System restore is a second layer of protection.
Audio, video and other hardware services can be accessed directly by the kernel. If your video card drivers crash, so does your OS. That is because the drivers have direct access to the kernel. Same with your sound.
Sound is now completely out of the kernel. All drivers for x64 must be signed, and x86 vista and XP will warn you if you try and do a silly thing like installing an unsigned, unverified driver.
I can list more if ya want me to.
You're apparently going to have to, because all of yours have either already been addressed, or aren't security holes.
I was talking about Windows XP. I even stated it. Go ahead and look at my post
As far as Vista is concerned, Microsoft did change a few things after security experts nagged about it for YEARS. However, they only implemented half of the fixes. Vista still has major issues.
For example: Microsoft is still integrating features directly in the kernel. WDDM and DRM controls. These things should NOT be in the kernel layer. These things can be done outside the kernel.
However, "DRIVERS" have no business accessing the hardware "THROUGH" the kernel. The kernel points at the hardware and the driver goes there. If the driver goes through the kernel to get to the hardware directly, then that is a security risk. This is why when video drivers crash on Windows XP, the OS crashes. When video drivers crash on Linux, X server crashes and not the entire OS.
IE not integrated with the kernel? If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Originally posted by: stash
You're still here? Do you even know what the hell you are talking about? Clearly not. WDDM is largely implemented in userland: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau...ng/html/WinVistaDisplayDriverModel.asp.For example: Microsoft is still integrating features directly in the kernel. WDDM and DRM controls. These things should NOT be in the kernel layer. These things can be done outside the kernel.
Please tell us how you would implement a display driver model entirely in usermode.
At a technical level, WDDM display drivers have two components, a kernel mode driver (KMD) that is very streamlined, and a user-mode driver that does most of the intense computations. With this model, most of the code is moved out of kernel mode. That is, the kernel mode piece is now solely responsible for lower-level functionality and the user mode piece takes on heavier functionality such as facilitating the translation from higher-level API constructs to direct GPU commands while maintaining application compatibility.
I was talking about Windows XP. I even stated it. Go ahead and look at my post
As far as Vista is concerned, Microsoft did change a few things after security experts nagged about it for YEARS. However, they only implemented half of the fixes. Vista still has major issues.
For example: Microsoft is still integrating features directly in the kernel. WDDM and DRM controls. These things should NOT be in the kernel layer. These things can be done outside the kernel.
Originally posted by: stash
Because the browser (any browser) is pretty much the biggest attack surface on any machine? This has nothing to do with kernel mode.If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
Originally posted by: stash
Because the browser (any browser) is pretty much the biggest attack surface on any machine? This has nothing to do with kernel mode.If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Oh? So, how come Firefox isn't in protected mode?
Good question. It should be.Oh? So, how come Firefox isn't in protected mode?
Originally posted by: Nothinman
I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. Drivers in the kernel are in the kernel, it's like one big monolithic program and the drivers are dlls loaded into that program. The only "THROUGH" the kernel that they do is calling functions that MS provides to do things like register an IRQ handler, allocate/free memory, etc all of the same stuff that Linux modules do in the kernel.
And apparently you haven't used the nVidia or ATI drivers on Linux, they have kernel components and when they crash they crash the entire kernel. If you'd like I can post some oops output from the nVidia driver killing my notebook. The unaccelerated X drivers are special in that they're entirely in userspace but that makes them very slow and doesn't let them do any 3D acceleration or anything.
IE not integrated with the kernel? If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Because most of the problems people run into from IE are from installing spyware and crap, the kernel is completely irrelevant in that respect.
Nothinman already covered this, but that's nonsense.Linux display drivers work soley in user mode. NOTHING goes through the kernel. NOTHING!
Uh no?Why would spyware need to target IE if IE wasn't anywhere near the kernel? Would be kinda pointless, eh?
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
Originally posted by: Nothinman
I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. Drivers in the kernel are in the kernel, it's like one big monolithic program and the drivers are dlls loaded into that program. The only "THROUGH" the kernel that they do is calling functions that MS provides to do things like register an IRQ handler, allocate/free memory, etc all of the same stuff that Linux modules do in the kernel.
And apparently you haven't used the nVidia or ATI drivers on Linux, they have kernel components and when they crash they crash the entire kernel. If you'd like I can post some oops output from the nVidia driver killing my notebook. The unaccelerated X drivers are special in that they're entirely in userspace but that makes them very slow and doesn't let them do any 3D acceleration or anything.
IE not integrated with the kernel? If that is the case, then why does Microsoft need to put IE in protected mode in Vista, hmm?
Because most of the problems people run into from IE are from installing spyware and crap, the kernel is completely irrelevant in that respect.
Linux uses kernel modules. They work outside the kernel. The modules are compiled with kernel source code for better compatibility. However, they never work in the kernel.
I'm sorry the drivers killed your notebook (which I doubt). If you're able to see a prompt, your notebook isn't dead.
Why would spyware need to target IE if IE wasn't anywhere near the kernel? Would be kinda pointless, eh?
Originally posted by: Nothinman
However, "DRIVERS" have no business accessing the hardware "THROUGH" the kernel. The kernel points at the hardware and the driver goes there. If the driver goes through the kernel to get to the hardware directly, then that is a security risk. This is why when video drivers crash on Windows XP, the OS crashes. When video drivers crash on Linux, X server crashes and not the entire OS.
I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. Drivers in the kernel are in the kernel, it's like one big monolithic program and the drivers are dlls loaded into that program. The only "THROUGH" the kernel that they do is calling functions that MS provides to do things like register an IRQ handler, allocate/free memory, etc all of the same stuff that Linux modules do in the kernel.
And apparently you haven't used the nVidia or ATI drivers on Linux, they have kernel components and when they crash they crash the entire kernel. If you'd like I can post some oops output from the nVidia driver killing my notebook. The unaccelerated X drivers are special in that they're entirely in userspace but that makes them very slow and doesn't let them do any 3D acceleration or anything.
Linux display drivers work soley in user mode. NOTHING goes through the kernel. NOTHING! That is how Linux was designed since day one.
Instead of the comment that "trolltech does not make KDE" you could have offered a clarification so i wouldn't have had to write this post, Trolltech makes QT, KDE is built using QT, QT3 for KDE3, QT4 for KDE4, it's not the same and not backwards compatible.
Linux uses kernel modules. They work outside the kernel. The modules are compiled with kernel source code for better compatibility. However, they never work in the kernel.
I'm sorry the drivers killed your notebook (which I doubt). If you're able to see a prompt, your notebook isn't dead.
Why would spyware need to target IE if IE wasn't anywhere near the kernel? Would be kinda pointless, eh? I mean, they almost exclusively target IE.... Yet they don't target firefox... Hmm...
No, the Nvidia driver has a loader in the kernel, the entire code exists in user space.
Originally posted by: stash
Oh please.By all observers with vested inerest in discarding it you mean?
You can't be serious... http://projects.info-pull.com/mokb/It's kinda strange that the only real module with regards to the linux kernel that has had a serious security problem for the last seven years is a BINARY CLOSED SOURCE MODULE, wouldn't you say?
And why are you restricting this to kernel bugs? What about all that other open source code out there, doesn't the many eyes theory apply to that too? Oh, guess not.
Originally posted by: stash
The troll is strong in this thread. Either that or just a healthy heaping of ignorance.