Windows Vista Rules.

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Ragnarok2

Senior member
Jul 11, 2006
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I recently got Windows Vista Ultimate Edition, and I will too, say that Vista is da sh*t. The new interface is simply great. I'm typing this from Vista right now as a matter of fact. Can't wait to see the power of DX10. And, My comp specs are pretty modest: AMD Athlon 3700+(OC'ed to 2.75Ghz), Radeon X1800XT 512MB, 1.5GB RAM. Runs beautifully on my system. I highly recommend it.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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0
New limit? Did you realize that since the 386 processor, CPUs were essentially 32-bit and capable of addressing larger amounts of memory. The issue here never was the hardware, it was the software. DOS was 16-bit, Win3.1 wasn't even a real OS...Windows95 was 32-bit but you know what, it wouldn't boot if you put 1GB of memory in your system. Keep it in the context here, the transition from DOS/Win3.1 to WIndows 95 (the first mainstream 32-bit OS), was shaky and not "immediate", as it is now with the 64-bit transition.

The transition now is also shaky and not immediate because the software sucks, at least in the Windows world, have you seen all of the problems people have been having with XP64?

Do you know what a DLL is? It's a SHARED LIBRARY. That means that programs can load them as required, or the DLL itself can be loaded into memory and made available to any program which needs it. Protected mode memory means that the data being stored at a given memory address for a given app or process cannot be accessed by other processes or apps. And yes, you can program your app in such a way that it poaches another instance's protected memory, and this is how you end up with app instability.

Actually the term "demand paged" is used to decribe files that are loaded as required. Protected mode is global, it's not per-process, per-mapping or anything else once the CPU transitions to protected mode the only way out is a soft reboot. And your app can't touch another process' address space unless you have priviledges to do so, on Windows that's part of the debugging rights and on unix you have to either own the process that you want to "poach", as you put it, or be root. And even then you can't just poke at random addresses to try and figure out which process they belong to, you have to use special functions because each process' VM will be different so you might have address conflicts.

Like I said, show me some programs you've written since you're so into talking about it like your Carmack's apprentice or something.

Like I have anything to prove to you, so far you're the one making bit claims about how easy multithreaded programming is and how everything will be multithreaded in the next year or so because everyone has 2 or more cores in their machines.

Right now development tools are not optimized for SMP programming, however they will be soon, and there will most likely be wrappers and APIs developed that dramatically ease the development of a proper multi-threaded app. Besides, you are not going to be the one doing any programming so why are you so worried?

If it was simply a matter of better development tools it would have been taken care of years ago. No IDE can decide how to break up your program into threads because it's not possible to programmatically determine what depends on what.

Did you notice that the things that use SMP now are mainly software apps that cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars? What does SQL server go for? $25k? What does a studio-quality AV app go for...like Avid...guessing around $10K. Why do they cost so much? Because they make use of non-mainstream technology to provide substantial performance improvements. The reason SMP enabled games are few, and poorly implement is an ECONOMIC issue, not a technical issue. Now, that is changing...and now, developers who can utilize SMP in their games can potentially create much better games.

Funny, my first thoughts about multithreaded programs were of things like Apache, MySQL and ffmpeg which are free and open source.

Games are getting more complex, and there's no doubt that SMP can improve their performance if it is implemented effectively. Even if the game itself is SMP-enabled, the sound and video card drivers, as well as most supporting APIs are not. Hence, the minimal gains.

Do you think the Doom 3 game client was originally designed to be SMP from the ground up? Really?

You seem to have things backwards, as games get more complex they'll be more and more difficult to multithread. Sound and video drivers don't need to be multithreaded, their point of contention is the device they're driving so they've got no choice but to serialize on it. And in general the supporing APIs don't need be multithreaded since they're reentrant and can be called as many times as possible at the same time, otherwise they wouldn't be very useful.

And I don't know if Doom3 was designed for SMP from the ground up, I never looked into it until now and I couldn't find any concrete evidence either way. The process did have ~5 threads on this machine when I started it but as I said it didn't make any difference performance-wise.

There exists a freeware counterpart to almost every commercial app, but that's not what I'm talking about. You're comparing apples to oranges...do you think that if the freeware apps were being developed by paid programmers, they'd be any cheaper? The answer is no.

Wait, did you really just ask whether he thinks that if a app that sells for $0 was developed by paid programmers that they'd be less than $0? Unless the company paying those developers also pays you to use their app of course the answer will be no, you can't make something cheaper than free.

A program that is poorly written will be slow and unstable, regardless of whether it is multi-threaded or not. You really can't say that simply because you need more skill to do something, it is impractical or not worth doing.

Of course it can be impractical and/or not worth doing. If you're paying for development of an app you get to decide how much you're willing to spend on that whole development process and multithreading something makes the development process much more difficult and usually a lot longer. If you're doing the program yourself for free then whether it's worth it or not is determined by how much time you're willing to spend on the project, either way there is a value attached to the development process and multithreaded apps have a much higher development cost.

You all like to keep saying SMP is so difficult, and none of you are programmers...but that aside, anything worth doing isn't going to be easy...and that is something you can bank on.

A) You can't prove that we are or aren't developers.
B) Since you think multithreaded programs are so simple how about you show us some nice, simple example source code?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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0
Games are getting more complex, and there's no doubt that SMP can improve their performance if it is implemented effectively. Even if the game itself is SMP-enabled, the sound and video card drivers, as well as most supporting APIs are not. Hence, the minimal gains.

The biggest near-term improvement is going to be in the computer AI's. In the past the typical AI team would be lucky to get 5-10% of the cpu time allocated to them. The additional cores are going to allow them to do some things they've been all wanting to do but didn't have the horsepower to pull off. (Personally can't wait)

Bill

 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
0
0
Originally posted by: bsobel
Games are getting more complex, and there's no doubt that SMP can improve their performance if it is implemented effectively. Even if the game itself is SMP-enabled, the sound and video card drivers, as well as most supporting APIs are not. Hence, the minimal gains.

The biggest near-term improvement is going to be in the computer AI's. In the past the typical AI team would be lucky to get 5-10% of the cpu time allocated to them. The additional cores are going to allow them to do some things they've been all wanting to do but didn't have the horsepower to pull off. (Personally can't wait)

Bill


More complex physics would be another thing that should benefit from SMP enabled games. There is a physics accelerator you can buy, but I don't think there's much support for it yet. Dedicated physics could make for ultra-realistic effects within games...like explosions that look different each time, based on what caused them. Shrapnel, realistic deformations in environment. Combine that with improved AI and you're talking some serious fun...yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
The transition now is also shaky and not immediate because the software sucks, at least in the Windows world, have you seen all of the problems people have been having with XP64?

The software sucks, yet you do not use it, and most people in this thread who do use Vista really like it. Is that your expert analysis?

Actually the term "demand paged" is used to decribe files that are loaded as required. Protected mode is global, it's not per-process, per-mapping or anything else once the CPU transitions to protected mode the only way out is a soft reboot. And your app can't touch another process' address space unless you have priviledges to do so, on Windows that's part of the debugging rights and on unix you have to either own the process that you want to "poach", as you put it, or be root. And even then you can't just poke at random addresses to try and figure out which process they belong to, you have to use special functions because each process' VM will be different so you might have address conflicts.

I gotta feel bad for you, I mean with every reply I post you're sitting there on wikipedia and google, desperately trying to maintain the facade that you actually know anything...wooooooo...wooo.wwwwwwwwwwwwwww... CHOO CHOOOOOOOO.

Like I have anything to prove to you, so far you're the one making bit claims about how easy multithreaded programming is and how everything will be multithreaded in the next year or so because everyone has 2 or more cores in their machines.

When talking about anything more complicated than the power button on your computer, all you've really done so far is paraphrase the wiki...don't do that, just don't reply to things you know nothing about.

If it was simply a matter of better development tools it would have been taken care of years ago. No IDE can decide how to break up your program into threads because it's not possible to programmatically determine what depends on what.

Why would current mainstream development tools support multi-threading and SMP optimization when there has not been a real mainstream demand for it? Future dev tools will have more SMP optimizations for sure, making it more efficient and quicker to deploy quality multi-threaded programs.

Funny, my first thoughts about multithreaded programs were of things like Apache, MySQL and ffmpeg which are free and open source.

Well you've clearly shown that what you think is in the small minority. We'll just add that to our list of Vista sux, don't defrag, and SMP is virtually impossible.

You seem to have things backwards, as games get more complex they'll be more and more difficult to multithread. Sound and video drivers don't need to be multithreaded, their point of contention is the device they're driving so they've got no choice but to serialize on it. And in general the supporing APIs don't need be multithreaded since they're reentrant and can be called as many times as possible at the same time, otherwise they wouldn't be very useful.

And I don't know if Doom3 was designed for SMP from the ground up, I never looked into it until now and I couldn't find any concrete evidence either way. The process did have ~5 threads on this machine when I started it but as I said it didn't make any difference performance-wise.

Why are you so hung up on the "difficulty of multithreading". Dude, for you, counting past the fingers on your hands is "difficult". So when you say something is "difficult" it's really not saying much. Every single time, you just reply with moronic, baseless comments that show your lack of understanding...then I inform you, then you search google/wiki, then you try to sound smart or change the topic. Look, it's getting old and this is way off topic. You don't have a clue about programming, so shut up about it.

Wait, did you really just ask whether he thinks that if a app that sells for $0 was developed by paid programmers that they'd be less than $0? Unless the company paying those developers also pays you to use their app of course the answer will be no, you can't make something cheaper than free.

Clearly the math involved in this calculation involved operations that surpassed counting to 10...possibly 20 if you're barefoot. You see, if the developers were PAID, there would exist a COST for development, which means the program would not be FREE - and that was my point.

A) You can't prove that we are or aren't developers.
B) Since you think multithreaded programs are so simple how about you show us some nice, simple example source code?

A) We? What do you mean WE? Are you a hive mind? If you are then I think you should defrag...anyway, you've done a good job proving you are not a developer.

B) I never said they were "simple", nor do I think that. All I said was that there are plenty of capable programmers who can and will develop quality SMP apps, contrary to your belief that they've been "trying for decades to get it right".


 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Especially with those 'hardware accelerated physics' actually being _slower_ then software driven physics. If you have a choice between buying a physix card or getting a additional core or two then having the extra core is a win every time, even with applications that support it. At least so far it is.

The movement in computer hardware is 'toward the core'. I know people have this fantasy stemming from the days of the Amiga were you had a crapload of speciality items that accelerated the system to capabilities only matched by PC hardware years later, but that's not the way things are going and have been going for years.

You have "Moore's Law", which has little to do with the clock speed of the proccesor and everything to do with the actual amount of the transistor count on a paticular slice of silicone.

Intel/AMD/IBM are all fighting to get the largest silicone wafer possible. To do this they need to create more and more efficient and effective ways to make the wafer. This things dramaticly cheaper as you can streamline the production proccesses and decrease the losses to impurities.

In addition to this they are fighting to make the logic as physically small as possible. 0.5µm. 0.35µm. 0.25µm. 0.18µm. 0.13µm. 90nm. 65nm. 45nm. 30nm etc etc. This helps decrease cost because you can pack more logic into smaller spaces so that you can make more cores cheaper.

So you have this ironic thing going on were you require very high speed curcuites, so the logic is going to be contrained in complexity. But you still have all this silicon space.

This silicon is now cheaper then buying individual componates and sticking them in a PC. So Intel/AMD/IBM and freinds are moving as much of the PC out of the PC and into the cpu. It's cheaper, provides better performance and power savings as well as being more flexible since your replacing hardware with software on general purpose cpus.


Modems, Wifi cards, raid, ethernet cards, and disk drive controllers are all things that have moved from discrete devices to being run mostly on your cpu as software, and with superior results then with their hardware-driven predecessors while being much much cheaper.

Raid is a relatively new things. Used to be that only the very cheapest systems used software raid. Now software raid is capable of better I/O performance (due to fast cpus and PCIe) then all but the most expensive hardware raid controllers. And with standardized and well defined interfaces like AHCI and SATA your going to be able to get most of the secondary benifits of hardware raid also. (hotswap, for example)

Another example is moving the memory controller out of the motherboard and into the cpu die.

In the coming years GPUs are going to follow. IBM's new POWER proccessors are going to run 5ghz. Intel and AMD are working on 45nm fabrication plants for cpus. The GPU can and will be much much faster then any sort of discrete card Nvidia or ATI could of done on their own. The main barrier you have to integrated graphics performance is the lack of memory I/O speed, which is crippling.

but if they can solve that problem, imagine what you have...

Would you rather have a 700-1ghz GPU core sitting on some card hanging out of your PCIe port with it's ultra fast 512megs worth of memory, were you only get to use it for video games?
or
Would you rather spend that money on sticking that GPU into your CPU die running at 50% the speed of everything else at 2-2.5ghz and having that 512megs of ultra-high bandwidth memory sitting right next to your proccessor were everything can be used for many different things?

Give it enough time and the fastest personal computers in the world are going to be mostly a small black box with various little multipurpose I/O ports all over it that can literally fit into the palm of your hand and be cheaper then a new pair of name brand shoes.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
The software sucks, yet you do not use it, and most people in this thread who do use Vista really like it. Is that your expert analysis?

I have used it, I just don't use it on a regular basis because I see no reason to replace Linux with it.

I gotta feel bad for you, I mean with every reply I post you're sitting there on wikipedia and google, desperately trying to maintain the facade that you actually know anything...wooooooo...wooo.wwwwwwwwwwwwwww... CHOO CHOOOOOOOO.

There's nothing wrong with having to lookup or verify answers before posting them, it's better than being outright wrong like you. But I haven't had to use Google or Wikipedia for replies to you for a while now. I actually read Understanding the Linux Kernel a few years ago and retained a good bit of the information, can you say the same?

When talking about anything more complicated than the power button on your computer, all you've really done so far is paraphrase the wiki...don't do that, just don't reply to things you know nothing about.

If I've paraphrased any wikis it's been totally by chance and just proves that someone else out there agrees with me. But please stop trying to change the subject, if you're such a great developer you should be able to whip up a nice, simple multithreaded example in a few minutes.

Why would current mainstream development tools support multi-threading and SMP optimization when there has not been a real mainstream demand for it? Future dev tools will have more SMP optimizations for sure, making it more efficient and quicker to deploy quality multi-threaded programs.

Not stuff like VS, but there would be tools already because the parallel computing people working on things like OpenMP and MPI would have done it already.

Well you've clearly shown that what you think is in the small minority. We'll just add that to our list of Vista sux, don't defrag, and SMP is virtually impossible.

I guess if you consider software that runs 64 million domains the minority, then I'll have to agree. But my point was that there is a good bit of multithreaded software that doesn't cost an arm and a leg but overall it's still rare to find.

Why are you so hung up on the "difficulty of multithreading". Dude, for you, counting past the fingers on your hands is "difficult". So when you say something is "difficult" it's really not saying much. Every single time, you just reply with moronic, baseless comments that show your lack of understanding...then I inform you, then you search google/wiki, then you try to sound smart or change the topic. Look, it's getting old and this is way off topic. You don't have a clue about programming, so shut up about it.

You haven't informed me of anything and the fact that you're resorting to personal attacks proves that you don't have anything technical to back up your posts with.

Clearly the math involved in this calculation involved operations that surpassed counting to 10...possibly 20 if you're barefoot. You see, if the developers were PAID, there would exist a COST for development, which means the program would not be FREE - and that was my point.

Then you must be missing some fingers and toes because you completely screwed up the math. Either that or you're just not very good at conveying your thoughts. And I can point to at least a half dozen Linux projects off the top of my head that are freely available and have developers on some company's payroll.

A) We? What do you mean WE? Are you a hive mind? If you are then I think you should defrag...anyway, you've done a good job proving you are not a developer.

You said "none of you" so I figured you were at least including drag in your personal attacks.

B) I never said they were "simple", nor do I think that. All I said was that there are plenty of capable programmers who can and will develop quality SMP apps, contrary to your belief that they've been "trying for decades to get it right".

Whatever, you probably just don't even have a clue as to how to start a multithreaded app and that's why you can't post an example. You keep pointing out how I'm obviously not a developer but the same looks to be true of you since you can't even post a few dozen lines to prove that you can work a compiler.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
I gotta feel bad for you, I mean with every reply I post you're sitting there on wikipedia and google, desperately trying to maintain the facade that you actually know anything...wooooooo...wooo.wwwwwwwwwwwwwww... CHOO CHOOOOOOOO.

When talking about anything more complicated than the power button on your computer, all you've really done so far is paraphrase the wiki...don't do that, just don't reply to things you know nothing about.

Why are you so hung up on the "difficulty of multithreading". Dude, for you, counting past the fingers on your hands is "difficult". So when you say something is "difficult" it's really not saying much. Every single time, you just reply with moronic, baseless comments that show your lack of understanding...then I inform you, then you search google/wiki, then you try to sound smart or change the topic. Look, it's getting old and this is way off topic. You don't have a clue about programming, so shut up about it.

Eric, feel free to have a civil discussion about these issues. But the tone you've started showing stops *now*.

 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Whatever, you probably just don't even have a clue as to how to start a multithreaded app and that's why you can't post an example. You keep pointing out how I'm obviously not a developer but the same looks to be true of you since you can't even post a few dozen lines to prove that you can work a compiler.

I know enough about programming to know that you don't know anything about it - other than what you may have read a few years ago or copied from another website.

Anyway, this thread is about Vista. Your last 10 responses have been nothing but baseless disagreement in your attempt to come across as "smart". I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you, because this is no longer a discussion. It's your attempt to further pad your post counts so other losers who "live" on these forums think you're some kinda genius.

Here are the facts:

- Vista doesn't suck simply because you prefer linux. It is a marked improvement over XP, which in itself is a great OS.

- Mainstream SMP apps and games will come into existence within a short period of time, spurred by the adoption of multi-core CPUs as the norm by consumers and businesses.

- There is a demand for 64-bit consumer OS, i.e. Vista 64-bit, which extend the capabilities of the PC quite dramatically.

- On suitable hardware, and with well-written software, 64-bit computers can do more than their 32-bit counterparts in the same amount of time.

- You're not a programmer (if you are, the bar has fallen very VERY low).

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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I know enough about programming to know that you don't know anything about it - other than what you may have read a few years ago or copied from another website.

You have yet to prove anything, you can keep typing that sentence over and over if you want but it won't make it true.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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0
That still seems a little ambitious since 2G chips are still in the $500-$600 range. 2G and 4G aren't uncommon because you can get 1G chips for like a $100 a piece, but I doubt many people will be willing to spend $2K for 8G of memory when there's no real reason yet

The prices will start dropping very fast (again IMHO). Remember, Dell and the other OEM houses have a large incentive to start selling 64bit systems. They can ship today with 2gig (or 4 gig) and still give the customer the ability to come back and buy more later. OS's limiting them to selling just 4gig of memory aren't going to be pushed over the same OS that gives them an upgrade path. The biggest issue with XP64 was driver parity, and Vista will have that. Further, they will be pushed as a bit more future proof than current systems. I do believe 32bit is on the way out, even if we don't really need all of the power af 64 *yet* as there is too much money in upgrades for the OEM's to not do this.

I certainly could be wrong, but right now if placing bets I think 2007-2008 will be remembered as the years we really shifted to 64bit machines and lots of cores (4-8 near term, many more long especially if you start merging the cpu/gpu)

Bill
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
0
0
AMD is planning to release a "true" quad-core CPU to compete with Intel's C2D line. AMD's solution is to have 4 cores on a single die, whereas Intel currently puts two dual-core dies on a single chip. In any case, by switching over from the clockspeed race, it seems that manufacturers are shifting into micro-sizing distributed computing. One thing I thought would be a good innovation is a serialized interconnect system that is truly universal for the entire system, rather than having SATA, USB, FireWire, PCIE - you just have one interconnect system that has enough bandwidth and speed to support all connected devices.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Originally posted by: EricMartello
AMD is planning to release a "true" quad-core CPU to compete with Intel's C2D line. AMD's solution is to have 4 cores on a single die, whereas Intel currently puts two dual-core dies on a single chip. In any case, by switching over from the clockspeed race, it seems that manufacturers are shifting into micro-sizing distributed computing. One thing I thought would be a good innovation is a serialized interconnect system that is truly universal for the entire system, rather than having SATA, USB, FireWire, PCIE - you just have one interconnect system that has enough bandwidth and speed to support all connected devices.

AMD got caught with their pants down on this one, Intel's technique, while a bit of a hack, does give them good quad and dual yields and gives them months to develop a true quad. The system I'm getting (I keep mentioning it, I'm giddy that it's coming and will be here before Supreme Commander comes out) is a dual quad-core xeon. Or basically the equivlant to quad dual cores (based on the intel design). Will I notice a big difference from that over a true quad-core, not likely except for the most highly paralleized tasks (where the lack of shared cache will matter more). But for my planned use (lots and lots of virtual machines running) it will be fine.

I do think AMD's release will be good, but this was a definate mis-step for them.
 

Doom Machine

Senior member
Oct 23, 2005
346
0
0
i dont think quad is very necessary ...even gameing if you have a dual core and an 8800gtx your going to have great frame rates in any game for at least a good year
as the medical books say, our eyes can only see up to 60fps at 75-80mhz, so anything beyond that is overkill

*edit: necessary for a while is what i'm meaning, wait for the real quads or octiquads even
 
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