Winning Their Hearts And Minds: 11 People Killed in U.S. Raid

jpeyton

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Text

By ZIAD KHALAF, Associated Press Writer

ISAHAQI, Iraq - Eleven people ? most of them women and children ? were killed when U.S. forces bombed a house during a raid north of Baghdad early Wednesday, police and relatives said. Insurgent attacks killed at least four more people.

The U.S. military acknowledged the raid and said it captured one insurgent. It took place near Balad, about 50 miles north of the capital. But the military said only four people were killed ? a man, two women and a child.

Authorities in the Shiite holy city of Karabala, meanwhile, imposed a six-day driving ban starting Thursday in a bid to protect pilgrims from a wave of sectarian killing.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld hinted Tuesday that U.S. troop levels may increase slightly in the coming days because of the pilgrimages connected to the holiday of Ashura, which ends March 20. Increased attacks marked the celebration during 2004 and 2005.

Rumsfeld said Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. military officer in
Iraq, "may decide he wants to bulk up slightly for the pilgrimage." He did not elaborate.

Police Capt. Laith Mohammed, in nearby Samarra, said American warplanes and armor were used in the strike, which flattened the house and killed the 11 people inside.

An AP reporter at the scene in the rural Isahaqi area said the roof of the house collapsed, three cars were destroyed and two cows killed.

Eleven bodies, wrapped in blankets, were driven in the back of three pickup trucks to the Tikrit General Hospital, about 45 miles to the north, relatives said.

Associated Press photographs showed the bodies of two men, five children and four other covered figures arriving at the hospital accompanied by grief-stricken relatives. The victims were covered in dust with bits of rubble tangled in their hair.

Riyadh Majid, who identified himself as the nephew of the killed head of the family ? Faez Khalaf ? told AP at the hospital that U.S. forces landed in helicopters and raided the home early Wednesday.

Khalaf's brother, Ahmed, said nine of the victims were family members who lived at the house and two were visitors.

"The killed family was not part of the resistance, they were women and children," Ahmed Khalaf said. "The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death."

The U.S. military said it was targeting and captured an individual suspected of supporting foreign fighters for the al-Qaida in Iraq terror network.

"Troops were engaged by enemy fire as they approached the building," said Tech. Sgt. Stacy Simon, a military spokeswoman. "Coalition forces returned fire utilizing both air and ground assets."

Bomb blasts killed at least four more people and injured dozens Wednesday in Baghdad and north of the capital.

The worst attacks were in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, where there were at least three explosions.

A suicide bomber on a bicycle missed a police patrol, killing two civilians and injuring six others, police said. The provincial command said the bomber's explosives appeared to have detonated prematurely as he was pedaling toward the patrol.

Later, an explosion in a cell phone shop killed two more people and injured 12, police said.

Police at the scene found apparatus used to detonate explosives, leading them to suspect the shop may have been used to manufacture bombs. At least five other shops were damaged in the blast.

Another bomb targeting a police patrol injured two officers, police said.

The Iraqi army hit back Wednesday, arresting about 20 suspects and confiscating numerous weapons in a dawn raid in a nearby farming area, said Lt. Col. Tarik Muhei.

Late Tuesday, a roadside bomb exploded as an official with the Shiite Badr group was driving through Tuz Khormato, 130 miles north of Baghdad. The official, Ali Karim, escaped unharmed but his son was killed and nine other people were injured, police Brig. Sarhad Qadir said. The Badr group is linked to a Shiite militia accused of widespread abuses by Sunni Muslims.

Deepening sectarian violence in Iraq has produced at least 87 more victims in recent days ? men shot to death execution-style. Twenty-nine of the bodies, dressed only in underwear, were dug out of a single grave Tuesday in a Shiite neighborhood of east Baghdad.

The timing of the killings linked much of the bloodshed to revenge killings for a bomb and mortar attack in a Baghdad Shiite slum that killed at least 58 and wounded more than 200 at nightfall Sunday.

Revenge was swift in some cases, and by early Monday police began uncovering the bodies, although the discoveries were not immediately reported. The gruesome finds continued through the day Tuesday, police reported, marking the second wave of sectarian retribution killings since bombers destroyed an important Shiite shrine last month.

In the mayhem after the golden dome atop the Askariya shrine in Samarra was destroyed on Feb. 23, more than 500 people were reported killed, many of them Sunni Muslims and their clerics. Dozens of mosques were damaged or destroyed.

Underlining the vast unease in the capital, Interior Ministry officials on Tuesday announced another driving ban, this one from 8 p.m. Wednesday to 4 p.m. Thursday to protect against car and suicide bombs while the Iraqi parliament meets for the first session since the Dec. 15 election.

After the driving ban was announced, the Cabinet said that Thursday would be a holiday in the capital, presumably because residents would not be able to get to work. Restrictions on movement also had been put in place on the two weekends after the Samarra bombing in an attempt to quell the violence.

Scores of frightened Shiite families have fled predominantly Sunni parts of Baghdad in recent weeks, some of them at gunpoint. More than 100 families arrived between Monday and Tuesday alone in Wasit province, in the southern Shiite heartland, said Haitham Ajaimi Manie, an official with the provisional migration directorate.

North of the capital, a roadside bomb exploded Tuesday among Shiite pilgrims headed on foot to Karbala, killing one person and injuring seven near Baqouba, police said.

Also Tuesday, the U.S. military reported the deaths of two more soldiers in fighting in the insurgent-infested Anbar province. Their deaths raised to 2,310 members of the U.S. military who have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven military civilians.

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Collateral damage like this is like tossing gasoline on fire of the insurgency. One "insurgent" was supposedly captured (we'll never know if that's military PR covering for a botched operation). We do know that military PR did lie to us when they reported only four people were killed in the raid, even though AP reporters on the scene counted eleven.

Our opposition now has the bodies of five dead children and four women to convey to the Iraqi people exactly what the U.S. occupation has brought them. 33k+ dead Iraqis since the beginning of the war, and the total of dead civilians per year has been rising. When exactly will the situation reach a breaking point? Maybe the SAS soldier had a point about U.S. soldiers being a little trigger-happy.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
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this happens in every raid. At this point i think they do it on purpose.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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Why do you hate freedom? The Iraqis understand to have freedom and democracy they need to break a few eggs. I'm sure the forum's right to life Christians could explain it better though.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Why do you hate freedom? The Iraqis understand to have freedom and democracy they need to break a few eggs. I'm sure the forum's right to life Christians could explain it better though.

:laugh:

Yup, still waiting for Zentrolli and his ilk to chime in. Protect the unborn, death to criminals, and death to Iraqi civilians. Sounds about right.
 

DotheDamnTHing

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Why do you hate freedom? The Iraqis understand to have freedom and democracy they need to break a few eggs. I'm sure the forum's right to life Christians could explain it better though.

Peace, love and understanding at the tip of bayonets
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
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Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
Originally posted by: Todd33
Why do you hate freedom? The Iraqis understand to have freedom and democracy they need to break a few eggs. I'm sure the forum's right to life Christians could explain it better though.

Peace, love and understanding at the tip of bayonets

Quoted from the Simpsons (When they were funny):

Tenille: Tell me, young man, what do you want out of life?
[While Tenille was speaking, Homer was busy trying to reach a bowl
of peas from the center of the table.]
Homer: I want peas!
Tenille: We all want peace! But it's always just out of reach.
Homer: [moans] Uh huh?
Tenille: So, what's the best way to get peace?
Homer: With the knife!
Tenille: Exactly! Not with the olive branch, but the bayonet!
 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
2,149
0
0
"The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death."

Wow. The whole nasty bloody truth, in one quick sentence.
 

johnnobts

Golden Member
Jun 26, 2005
1,105
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unintentional casualty of war. the enemy indiscriminately kills anyone, including fellow arab women and children.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
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Originally posted by: johnnobts
unintentional casualty of war. the enemy indiscriminately kills anyone, including fellow arab women and children.


They didn't ask for or do anything to allow us to be murdering them // i.e. what you call war

Pre-Emptive Attack ??
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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Of course no one seems to mind that these insurgents are intentionally placing their own people in harm's way, and in many cases indiscriminately and quite deliberately killing civilians.

But in a hearts and minds war, any innocent death at the hands of the occupying force is not going to help things at all.

Even if you are of the persuasion that the insurgents are really "freedom fighters," at least revolutionary organizations of the past have met their enemy honorably on the field of battle...or at least sought to minimize collatoral damage within the population of the very people they were seeking to liberate.

Regardless of your feelings on the war in Iraq, urban combat is nasty business, and our soldiers face a tremendous challenge in targeting an enemy who hides within the civilian population.
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Of course no one seems to mind that these insurgents are intentionally placing their own people in harm's way, and in many cases indiscriminately and quite deliberately killing civilians.

But in a hearts and minds war, any innocent death at the hands of the occupying force is not going to help things at all.

Even if you are of the persuasion that the insurgents are really "freedom fighters," at least revolutionary organizations of the past have met their enemy honorably on the field of battle...or at least sought to minimize collatoral damage within the population of the very people they were seeking to liberate.

Regardless of your feelings on the war in Iraq, urban combat is nasty business, and our soldiers face a tremendous challenge in targeting an enemy who hides within the civilian population.

I'd have to agree. This is unfortunate but with the amount of violence the Iraqi's are perpetrating against themselves we are doing relativly little.
 

fierydemise

Platinum Member
Apr 16, 2005
2,056
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Originally posted by: johnnobts
unintentional casualty of war. the enemy indiscriminately kills anyone, including fellow arab women and children.
Are we going to stoop to their level now?
 

mackle

Senior member
Dec 30, 2004
257
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0
They always included "most of them women and children" killed in every fking news. Should I feel bad/simpathy? Hellno......I would question that why did they live so close to those bad people??
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: mackle
They always included "most of them women and children" killed in every fking news. Should I feel bad/simpathy? Hellno......I would question that why did they live so close to those bad people??
Yeah. How dare they live in the same house!
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
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0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Of course no one seems to mind that these insurgents are intentionally placing their own people in harm's way, and in many cases indiscriminately and quite deliberately killing civilians.

But in a hearts and minds war, any innocent death at the hands of the occupying force is not going to help things at all.

Even if you are of the persuasion that the insurgents are really "freedom fighters," at least revolutionary organizations of the past have met their enemy honorably on the field of battle...or at least sought to minimize collatoral damage within the population of the very people they were seeking to liberate.

Regardless of your feelings on the war in Iraq, urban combat is nasty business, and our soldiers face a tremendous challenge in targeting an enemy who hides within the civilian population.

Combat is a nasty buisness, but the way you lead the "war" is a shame on the word itself. The "war" you are in is more like a massacre, if you really wanted to win the war, you'd have to fight the war like war has been fought for years on end, going through every house without shelling it first, telling your troops to absolutely not kill civilians.
Which means more work would be done by the footsoldier instead of this Tv-war where you are using artillery to take out single targets. Ofcourse it would mean more american casualties, but rather more soldier casualties than the massive amount of civilian casualties you've created as a result of the tv war.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
if you really wanted to win the war, you'd have to fight the war like war has been fought for years on end, going through every house without shelling it first, telling your troops to absolutely not kill civilians.
I suggest you do some reading on military history before making such an assertion.

Compared to previous wars, the civilian body count in Iraq is rather low, especially considering that the majority of the fighting has occurred in built-up urban areas.

If you want to look back on history, the status quo for urban combat has typically been to indiscriminately destroy anything and everything in sight. America is probably one of a few nations that trains its soldiers to specifically prevent civilian casualties.

Similarly, you are appealing to the concept of Just War doctrine...if this is indeed the case, then the expectation would be for the Iraqi insurgency to face the American occupation honorably on the field of battle...not cowering behind the protective shield of civilian garb.

Which means more work would be done by the footsoldier instead of this Tv-war where you are using artillery to take out single targets. Ofcourse it would mean more american casualties, but rather more soldier casualties than the massive amount of civilian casualties you've created as a result of the tv war.
Actually, American military doctrine does place the protection of civilians above the safety and welfare of our own soldiers...of course there have been exceptions and violations of this policy over the years and across numerous wars.

That being said, I would contend that the Iraqi insurgency holds as much if not more blame for the civilian death toll.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
That being said, I would contend that the Iraqi insurgency holds as much if not more blame for the civilian death toll.

That being said, invading a country, destroying their infrastructure, erasing their system of law and order, and then expecting them to rebuild while enduring a bloody insurgency because you failed to a) provide adequate security b) provide adequate training c) provide adequate equipment...

...it's a half-assed job and our military is doing a splendid job of it. At least we went their for all the right reasons.
 

DotheDamnTHing

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
That being said, I would contend that the Iraqi insurgency holds as much if not more blame for the civilian death toll.

That being said, invading a country, destroying their infrastructure, erasing their system of law and order, and then expecting them to rebuild while enduring a bloody insurgency because you failed to a) provide adequate security b) provide adequate training c) provide adequate equipment...

...it's a half-assed job and our military is doing a splendid job of it. At least we went their for all the right reasons.

Even then, oil is still pricey, the economy still sucks, etc
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
That being said, invading a country, destroying their infrastructure, erasing their system of law and order, and then expecting them to rebuild while enduring a bloody insurgency because you failed to a) provide adequate security b) provide adequate training c) provide adequate equipment...
The strategic short sighted blunders of the Bush Administration is not the fault of our soldiers, and the Pentagon does not have the luxury of ignoring guidance or decisions coming from the Bush Administration...as much as our soldiers, and the military leadership, want to scrap the whole Iraq mission, the very foundation of our nation requires that the military remain subordinate to our civilian leadership...even when the civilian leadership sends them on missions that are poorly planned and have no strategic merit.

Blame the architects of the war, not the soldiers fighting it...our soldiers are doing an admirable job under the conditions and constraints imposed on them.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Of course no one seems to mind that these insurgents are intentionally placing their own people in harm's way, and in many cases indiscriminately and quite deliberately killing civilians.

But in a hearts and minds war, any innocent death at the hands of the occupying force is not going to help things at all.

Even if you are of the persuasion that the insurgents are really "freedom fighters," at least revolutionary organizations of the past have met their enemy honorably on the field of battle...or at least sought to minimize collatoral damage within the population of the very people they were seeking to liberate.

Regardless of your feelings on the war in Iraq, urban combat is nasty business, and our soldiers face a tremendous challenge in targeting an enemy who hides within the civilian population.

So, let me try and understand this:

1.) The U.S. deliberately targets a house w/ a precision bomb that may or may not have insurgents located inside, but also scores of innocent civilians.

2.) The insurgents explode a bomb in a public square and kill scores of innocent civilians.

In both cases, the innnocent civilians are dead. In both cases the bombers deliberately targeted the location where they are. So what makes us so different? That we *think* there may be some bad guys in that house that we've just turned into a crater?

Yeah, keep polishing that little turd. The families and friends of the dead civilians draw no such distinction, I guarantee you.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
That being said, invading a country, destroying their infrastructure, erasing their system of law and order, and then expecting them to rebuild while enduring a bloody insurgency because you failed to a) provide adequate security b) provide adequate training c) provide adequate equipment...
The strategic short sighted blunders of the Bush Administration is not the fault of our soldiers, and the Pentagon does not have the luxury of ignoring guidance or decisions coming from the Bush Administration...as much as our soldiers, and the military leadership, want to scrap the whole Iraq mission, the very foundation of our nation requires that the military remain subordinate to our civilian leadership...even when the civilian leadership sends them on missions that are poorly planned and have no strategic merit.

Blame the architects of the war, not the soldiers fighting it...our soldiers are doing an admirable job under the conditions and constraints imposed on them.

I agree here. It is the Bush administration that is clearly responsible for the death of thousands of innocent civilians.
Let us remember that this was a war of choice--completely avoidable. A pre-emptive strike on our behalf, and in our name.

The question is: are we as a civil society going to allow our administrators to perpetuate such crimes any further?

Much light and insight has been shed towards answering the classic historical question as to how could an entire Nation (Germany) allow their Government to behave as they did leading up to WWII and after.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The U.S. deliberately targets a house w/ a precision bomb that may or may not have insurgents located inside, but also scores of innocent civilians.
Given that in this case, our soldiers were receiving fire from the building in question...a pretty good indication that the house in question DOES have an insurgent or combatant presence.

In both cases, the innnocent civilians are dead. In both cases the bombers deliberately targeted the location where they are. So what makes us so different? That we *think* there may be some bad guys in that house that we've just turned into a crater?
A few distinctions:
- American soldiers clearly wear the uniform of combatants, and insurgents have the option to target our soldiers without risking the lives of innocent civilians...that is, if they had the courage to face our soldiers in a conventional fight.
- The protocol for clearance of fires is quite sophisticated...soldiers can't simply call in a smart bomb every time they receive direct fire from a building...unfortunately, sometimes mistakes are made, and quite often, any civilian deaths are unintentional. The insurgents use no such discretion or caution.
- That Iraqi insurgents use buildings occupied by civilians for military purposes is not the fault of our soldiers...they choose to place their own people in danger.

Yeah, keep polishing that little turd. The families and friends of the dead civilians draw no such distinction, I guarantee you.
I am not polishing anything...the distinction is probably lost on the families and friends of those killed, that much is true...removed from the emotion of the destruction, that YOU do not recognize the distinction illustrates that you have limited knowledge of the training our soldiers receive or our tactical doctrine we employ to prevent civilian casualties.
 

jimkyser

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
547
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The U.S. deliberately targets a house w/ a precision bomb that may or may not have insurgents located inside, but also scores of innocent civilians.
Given that in this case, our soldiers were receiving fire from the building in question...a pretty good indication that the house in question DOES have an insurgent or combatant presence.

In both cases, the innocent civilians are dead. In both cases the bombers deliberately targeted the location where they are. So what makes us so different? That we *think* there may be some bad guys in that house that we've just turned into a crater?
A few distinctions:
- American soldiers clearly wear the uniform of combatants, and insurgents have the option to target our soldiers without risking the lives of innocent civilians...that is, if they had the courage to face our soldiers in a conventional fight.
- The protocol for clearance of fires is quite sophisticated...soldiers can't simply call in a smart bomb every time they receive direct fire from a building...unfortunately, sometimes mistakes are made, and quite often, any civilian deaths are unintentional. The insurgents use no such discretion or caution.
- That Iraqi insurgents use buildings occupied by civilians for military purposes is not the fault of our soldiers...they choose to place their own people in danger.

Yeah, keep polishing that little turd. The families and friends of the dead civilians draw no such distinction, I guarantee you.
I am not polishing anything...the distinction is probably lost on the families and friends of those killed, that much is true...removed from the emotion of the destruction, that YOU do not recognize the distinction illustrates that you have limited knowledge of the training our soldiers receive or our tactical doctrine we employ to prevent civilian casualties.

Ah, but in the first few days of the invasion, we twice targeted buildings in Baghdad where we 'believed' Saddam to be. Of course, this belief was based on much of the same faulty 'intelligence' that forced our soldiers to wear their heavy anti-bioweapon outfits just so that we could get some really good play on the news about the evil permeating the Hussein regime. In both cases we killed noone but innocent civilians. So how is that any different?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Ah, but in the first few days of the invasion, we twice targeted buildings in Baghdad where we 'believed' Saddam to be. Of course, this belief was based on much of the same faulty 'intelligence' that forced our soldiers to wear their heavy anti-bioweapon outfits just so that we could get some really good play on the news about the evil permeating the Hussein regime. In both cases we killed noone but innocent civilians. So how is that any different?
I think you are being a bit more critical, and rightfully so, because the justifications and pretenses for this war are questionable...therefore, if you are of the opinion that this war of pre-emption is completely invalid, then any civilian death is thereby unjustified.

We are willing to overlook collatoral damage when we have assurance that we are fighting for the right cause...not many Americans lost any sleep over the civilians killed in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagaski because we felt our cause was just, and those acts of reckless violence were intended to end the war and ultimately save lives.

I am talking more from a lower level...take George Bush out of the equation, and our justifications for invading Iraq...I can assure you that our soldiers, and military leadership, do not take civilian deaths lightly...a military commander faces no harder decision then to risk causing civilian deaths in performing their mission.
 
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