Winter-specific rims and tires or no, what sayest thou?

[mindless1]

There are a few places I've lived, where winter tires would have been beneficial, but I've never found them "necessary" on an AWD or 4WD vehicle, except once years ago during an ice storm on a backwards banked curve.

I was driving slow yet still slid right off the road into a concrete barrier, hit it with my tire and bounced right back onto the road. No vehicle body damage and the tire got me home but the sidewall bubbled so it was trashed.

I'm not even sure that winter tires would've been enough the way that road was banked, but studded are illegal here.

Otherwise I just drive the same speed as most other drivers and try to keep clear of anyone else who doesn't follow that philosophy, except on bridges. I slow way down then because black ice there while the rest of the road is fine, is quite common here.

Unlike Chapbass, I don't see driving faster as some performance thing, rather that it is reckless. I'm sure I am overgeneralizing, but I bet I could easily drive faster, safer in one of my SUV's with all season tires than any vehicle with RWD and studless snow tires, but even so, slower is safer still, as is not trying to pass people who may not have good traction. Then again it doesn't get below 0F here and usually winter daytime is above 20F so there's that. The ambient temp determines how hard your tire compound gets.

 

[Chapbass]

There are a few places I've lived, where winter tires would have been beneficial, but I've never found them "necessary" on an AWD or 4WD vehicle, except once years ago during an ice storm on a backwards banked curve.

I was driving slow yet still slid right off the road into a concrete barrier, hit it with my tire and bounced right back onto the road. No vehicle body damage and the tire got me home but the sidewall bubbled so it was trashed.

I'm not even sure that winter tires would've been enough the way that road was banked, but studded are illegal here.

Otherwise I just drive the same speed as most other drivers and try to keep clear of anyone else who doesn't follow that philosophy, except on bridges. I slow way down then because black ice there while the rest of the road is fine, is quite common here.

Unlike Chapbass, I don't see driving faster as some performance thing, rather that it is reckless. I'm sure I am overgeneralizing, but I bet I could easily drive faster, safer in one of my SUV's with all season tires than any vehicle with RWD and studless snow tires, but even so, slower is safer still, as is not trying to pass people who may not have good traction. Then again it doesn't get below 0F here and usually winter daytime is above 20F so there's that. The ambient temp determines how hard your tire compound gets.

Hey man, thanks for putting words in my mouth! And completely taking what I said the wrong way!

 

[Midwayman]

Even if its just below freezing snow tires make a substantial difference. They are better in all conditions below about 40F. Generally you're going to want to buy the smallest wheel that will fit your brakes and then a lower width tire like under 200. If its just cold where you are and not snowy you can probably get by with larger rims, and wider tires, but it does make the tires substantially more expensive.

 

[mindless1]

Hey man, thanks for putting words in my mouth! And completely taking what I said the wrong way!

I think the emphasis should always be driving slower, and no, you can't drive faster, safer in any RWD vehicle no matter what winter (studless and chainess) tires you have, than an equally competent driver in AWD or 4WD with all season tires.

 

[ondma]

I think the emphasis should always be driving slower, and no, you can't drive faster, safer in any RWD vehicle no matter what winter (studless and chainess) tires you have, than an equally competent driver in AWD or 4WD with all season tires.

I would like to see a well designed test of that actually. I live in snow country and have watched a lot of videos on this. Unfortunately most of them seem to be testing awd with summer tires vs rwd with winter tires, with is not really a fair comparison. But back to awd with all season tires vs rwd with winter tires. In acceleration, the awd would win for sure. Braking, awd helps little if at all, and I think the rwd with winter tires would win. Cornering, I dont know, probably the rwd with winter tires would win, but be more tricky to drive because it would tend to oversteer.

Edit: I am planning to replace the all season Continental Pure Contact TX tires on my Impreza with all weather tires or good snow rated all seasons before next winter. Have my eye on the Michelin Cross Climate +, which are 3PMSF rated, but also perform very well in all conditions. The OEM Continentals were quite good the first year (got the car in Dec, so they were brand new for the winter) but traction is notably worse this year after only ~ 15k miles.

 

[heymrdj]

Our 2019 Terrain Denali came with those crap Ventus 2 tires, terrible to us. The 2.0T has no issues spinning them, has to be worse with an Edge ST. Where we live, 4 seasons is generally enough. She got the Michelin CrossClimate+ SUV tires and they are fantastic. I’m running the typical Michelin LTX MS/2 on my 2019 Canyon Denali.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Another "yes" vote. I'm in Chicago, and it was hilarious being able to drive right past SUV's in my RWD G35 when I had it several years ago. I have a Ford Fusion now (AWD) and its ookkkaayyyy without winters, but now that I actually have a garage again, I'm thinking about springing for them this year.

Your remark reminds me of a recent commercial in which the up-and-coming thirtyish young woman is driving her [Beamer? Lexus? can't remember . . ] on a snow-blown highway, just to get stuck in traffic. So she pulls off on an unpaved road buried in snow, driving like a bat out of hell in some Baja dune-buggy marathon, until she reaches some point on the mountain to don her glitzy ski-gear and taxi to the runway for take-off.

I'm a 20-th century man. I've been entertaining the purchase of a Forester to either augment or replace my 25-year-old orphaned Trooper. The Forester -- I can see it. It's not a "real" SUV. But I look at the ford Edge, and I look at several others -- even the Toyota 4-Runner, and I see a large, candy-colored tangerine-flake jelly-bean. SUVs should look like a 1970s Toyota Scout, I say!

If you're going to live year-round in Tahoe, the Northern Cascades, some little burg in the Eastern Sierras . . . or you seek safety and mobility in places like Chicago, upstate New York -- northern Minnesota -- I can see changing out to snow-tires in the winter. The expense -- makes sense.

But -- in the 20th century -- we have (present tense!) 4WD -- not "AWD". We're having one of our colder wetter winters here in So-Cal. If I plan on driving up to Idyllwild and Mt. San Jacinto before spring so I can cavort in the snow and hang out at quaint alpine restaurants, I'll stow a set of chains in the back of my SUV. I won't need to go fast. I'll plan on going slow.

 

[mindless1]

Braking, awd helps little if at all, and I think the rwd with winter tires would win. Cornering, I dont know, probably the rwd with winter tires would win, but be more tricky to drive because it would tend to oversteer.

Traction control on modern vehicles helps, but having AWD/4WD, or even FWD instead of RWD, helps keep you going the direction you want to while braking or cornering. You're also more likely to be able to drive your way out of a skid.

I don't consider distance as much of a factor because you should always be driving slow enough to stop in the available distance. There may be unexpected situations where distance can matter, but I see more problems with people who can't stay in their lane.

Going some slight speed because you couldn't stop fast enough and fender bendering someone seems like a less severe accident than a lane departure where you hit another vehicle going the other direction or an *immovable* object like a tree or barrier.

Of course there is also the factor of which specific tires. It's not so black and white about all season vs winter, some are better than others in either category and temperature, and tire age matters. In very bad conditions it shouldn't be one or the other, should be AWD/4WD and winter tires, and studded at that if legal in the area.

 

[ondma]

Traction control on modern vehicles helps, but having AWD/4WD, or even FWD instead of RWD, helps keep you going the direction you want to while braking or cornering. You're also more likely to be able to drive your way out of a skid.

I don't consider distance as much of a factor because you should always be driving slow enough to stop in the available distance. There may be unexpected situations where distance can matter, but I see more problems with people who can't stay in their lane.

Going some slight speed because you couldn't stop fast enough and fender bendering someone seems like a less severe accident than a lane departure where you hit another vehicle going the other direction or an *immovable* object like a tree or barrier.

Of course there is also the factor of which specific tires. It's not so black and white about all season vs winter, some are better than others in either category and temperature, and tire age matters. In very bad conditions it shouldn't be one or the other, should be AWD/4WD and winter tires, and studded at that if legal in the area.

Yea, in Minnesota, with so much snow, studded tires are still not legal. I understand the desire to protect the roads, but such a restrictions seems ...ironic at best in such a snowy climate.

BTW, had a serious ice storm Saturday morning. Some videos even made the national news. One was of a school bus sliding sideways down the street, and another was of a teenager ice skating down the sidewalk. Fortunately it warmed up and the ice melted by the afternoon.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I can see where daily driving would make chains a last choice. But for that one single trip up to the Overlook Hotel . . . everything would be a "last choice" anyway

I'm looking at six-year-old all-season tires on my pooper-Trooper. There can't be more than 14,000 miles in wear. There's still more than 1/4" of good tread, but I ran over an oily spot in the rain yesterday and the car slipped a bit. The warranty is almost expired -- at the discretion of my tire reseller. I should probably replace 'em next fall . . .

Trying to stretch things out for a delay in the replacement is false economy.

 

[sdifox]

Wisconsin? Definitely winters and steel rims. AWD/4WD does nothing for your traction if your tires are stiff.

I love Blizzaks.

 

[sdifox]

In the Northeast, I can certainly get by with FWD and good all-seasons. You just have to know how to drive in the snow and know your limitations. I've blown past people in AWD SUVs in my little Nissan Versa on crappy all-seasons many times before I gave in and got winter tires.

But I've been using a dedicated set of winter tires/rims for the past six years and I would never go back to just running all-seasons, especially since I like to go snowboarding.

I recently bought a new car with larger 17" wheels, and I ended up paying ~$900 for a full set of 16" Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3s mounted on steel wheels, so $1.3k for a 20" setup isn't bad at all - you might want to look into minus-sizing so you can get 19" wheels/rims for a cheaper price.

BTW, you don't need TPMS for your winter wheels. Just be sure to check your tire pressure every couple of weeks or something.

Check out DiscountTireDirect. They generally have good prices and will price-match any store, as well as give you free mounting/balancing and shipping. TireRack is another good option, but I've been able to get better deals with DTD.

A lot of cars disable something or other in traction control when it cannot see tpms sensors. Best to have them. Don't know why we are still on sensors when you can just use rotational speed or ride height to compute if your tire is low on air.

 

[repoman0]

I think the emphasis should always be driving slower, and no, you can't drive faster, safer in any RWD vehicle no matter what winter (studless and chainess) tires you have, than an equally competent driver in AWD or 4WD with all season tires.

Yes you can. I’ve been back and forth between both setups here in New England on cars identical aside from the drivetrain (e46 330i and 330xi). AWD helps with starting from a stop, but the RWD with snows will outmaneuver and brake significantly better. It’s more controllable in pretty much all situations.

re: thread topic, I always have winter specific wheels and tires now but I try to buy used OE or decent aftermarket wheels rather than those expensive tirerack packages. For my current 330xi I bought a really nice set of stock wheels for $400 (actually use these as my 3-seasons and the old identical but rougher wheels for winter) and 17” Blizzaks for another $400. The cost of wheels is easily worth it to avoid mounting fees and inconvenience .. I swap in my driveway to avoid $60 charge twice a year and less wear and tear on the wheels.

 

[snoopy7548]

A lot of cars disable something or other in traction control when it cannot see tpms sensors. Best to have them. Don't know why we are still on sensors when you can just use rotational speed or ride height to compute if your tire is low on air.

I didn't know that. My old car didn't have any fancy traction control, so it didn't matter for me. My new one (Honda HR-V) uses rotational speed rather than TPMS sensors.

 

[sdifox]

I didn't know that. My old car didn't have any fancy traction control, so it didn't matter for me. My new one (Honda HR-V) uses rotational speed rather than TPMS sensors.

Honda doesn't allow you to disable traction control/stability control if you don't have tpms sensors. It's a problem if you get stuck and cannot lock drive axle. But then newer model ones moved off the sensors so it is a bit of a moot point.

 

[skyking]

in the 05 pilot, they used a vtm-4 lock button for dire situations like that. it only works in low or reverse, and does not work in conjunction with tpms or traction control.
it locks the center and rear diff electrically, giving you 3 out of 4 locked.

 

[skyking]

I took the snow tires down to the tire shop today to get them installed. they installed new wipers for me too. Weird to pay for it, but not much of a choice with my dominant arm in a sling. we are going across the mountains tomorrow to visit the family. I had them set pressures a little less than door sticker, they really grip nicely.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I took the snow tires down to the tire shop today to get them installed. they installed new wipers for me too. Weird to pay for it, but not much of a choice with my dominant arm in a sling. we are going across the mountains tomorrow to visit the family. I had them set pressures a little less than door sticker, they really grip nicely.

Funny -- those are items I've had on my own plate, although I'll only buy "all-season" tires. "Going across the mountains tomorrow . . . " Tell me. Did you buy a set of those TRICO (or other) "Winter" wiper blades? They're just a few dollars more than "Economy" wipers. This winter, we're getting more rain than usual in So-Cal, but I'd only have to worry about snow traveling up to San Jacinto or Wrightwood before spring. But I thought that they "looked neater".

I decided to replace all of them, after I discovered that the rear window-wiper "squeegee" was torn and unusable.

 

[mindless1]

Yes you can. I’ve been back and forth between both setups here in New England on cars identical aside from the drivetrain (e46 330i and 330xi). AWD helps with starting from a stop, but the RWD with snows will outmaneuver and brake significantly better. It’s more controllable in pretty much all situations.

It is not about acceleration from a stop, and it is not about outmaneuver, because it doesn't really (do that). It gives you the perception that you can go a little faster, but then gives you less possibility to regain control when you lose it.

It's not about small differences in control. That's something you can observe and adjust on the fly. It's about getting yourself out of hairy situations when it is the road that is the enemy, not your speed accelerating or decelerating. Acceleration and deceleration are variables under your control. The road is not.

It is not about accelerating or decelerating unless a foolish teen is driving. It's about recovery after a loss in traction for drivers going a responsible speed. You cannot do that nearly as well with a RWD vehicle in a situation were it was already losing control in the first place.

The difference is, RWD you seem fine then you have an unrecoverable wreck. FWD to some extent or more so AWD/4WD, no matter what tires and what the threshold was for loss of traction, you have a very large margin for regaining control... if you don't freak out and handle the situation wrong.

You have it wrong thinking it is a matter of how fast can I go. It's wrong at best with no other drivers around you, and it's even more wrong if you end up passing other drivers going slower so you increase your collision chances, even if they lost control instead of you.

 

[Arkaign]

Yeah, the paramount rules of winter inclement driving are :

Be prepared as you can be, deflated the tires slightly, get chains if needed

Drive at a reasonable speed

And above all : DON'T make sudden changes to throttle/steering/braking

 

[ondma]

I view one of the main advantages of AWD as being that you are much less likely to get stuck, so you can slow down and worry less about having to maintain momentum to keep moving. I have to say that I am surprised by my Impreza though. When cornering on ice or snow, it feels more like a RWD car than FWD. A little throttle mid-turn will definitely bring the tail around. Stability control helps keep it from spinning, but I was a little surprised until I got used to it. (Power is delivered 60/40 front/rear I believe.)

Edit: as for tires, the stock A/S Continentals were very good the first year, since they were brand new for the winter. This year with 15k on the tires, they seem much less grippy , especially braking. Havent had any deep snow yet to test in that.

 

[skyking]

Funny -- those are items I've had on my own plate, although I'll only buy "all-season" tires. "Going across the mountains tomorrow . . . " Tell me. Did you buy a set of those TRICO (or other) "Winter" wiper blades? They're just a few dollars more than "Economy" wipers. This winter, we're getting more rain than usual in So-Cal, but I'd only have to worry about snow traveling up to San Jacinto or Wrightwood before spring. But I thought that they "looked neater".

I decided to replace all of them, after I discovered that the rear window-wiper "squeegee" was torn and unusable.

I didn't get to choose my wiper blades, they had Rain X wipers and they worked fine.
I would never waste my money buying a second set of tires for the winter and not having them winter specific. What would be the point of that?
A really great alternative to studs are Bridgestone Blizzaks. They are truly amazing on ice. They have been selling them for decades I originally installed them on customer cars in the late 70s.
I happened to pick up these studs with almost no miles on them for $275 for the four. I had a set of steel rims given to me, spent another $60 having them mounted, and I put them on myself every other year when I needed to.
My truck tires are Dean winter cats, the brand sold by Les Schwab.

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I got a similar deal on the car tires, Hankook ipike directional studded snows on alloy wheels.
both of these sets of tires shed water and slush far better than all seasons, and are not all that much noisier.

 

[Zivic]

Funny -- those are items I've had on my own plate, although I'll only buy "all-season" tires. "Going across the mountains tomorrow . . . " Tell me. Did you buy a set of those TRICO (or other) "Winter" wiper blades? They're just a few dollars more than "Economy" wipers. This winter, we're getting more rain than usual in So-Cal, but I'd only have to worry about snow traveling up to San Jacinto or Wrightwood before spring. But I thought that they "looked neater".

I decided to replace all of them, after I discovered that the rear window-wiper "squeegee" was torn and unusable.

buy piaa silicon wipers. Anything from a parts store is crap. comparing "winter wiper" blades to tires is laughable.

 

[nOOky]

Found a set of Edge take offs within 150 miles on Craiglist, but they are 20". $200 for rims and tires, but the tires they come with are shot. I'll keep looking, we haven't really had any snow or ice here, that will change though.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

buy piaa silicon wipers. Anything from a parts store is crap. comparing "winter wiper" blades to tires is laughable.

"Comparing"? I think the discussion was merely about "winter driving conditions" . . .