WinXP slamming, FUDs, GPL arguments... whatnot

[IdahoB]

I've been following the threads on WinXP and the GPL/BSD shrink wrapped licensing and all that, and I have to admit it's very interesting.

The anti-MS sentiments seem to be over the top though. Microsoft software, despite it's bloatware highprice pitfalls, has still played a major part in increasing computer use and literacy throughout the world. Computers are so horrendously complex that without set standards there would be little transferability of skills and technology. In many ways, while competitive markets keep prices down and fuel development, the monopoly status of Wintel has many benefits. Think of the situation in hardware terms - think if the IBM Compatible PC standard never came about - what would the situation be? The Wintel standard allowed computers to grow exponetially.

So why we generally loathe MS for whatever deep seated reasons, in the end we still use their software because it allows us to be productive in whatever manner we like. I see a lot of ranting about Linux, but I still can't use it for anything, whereas I've never had problems with Windows.

 

[BreakApart]

I can see where you have some good points, though they are a bit off.

The "Wintel standard" shouldn't get credit for this growth: Actually IBM and the other top PC clone companies did. Apple has had a STRICT standard from day one, however it was so strict that it prevented Clone companies from helping grow the Apple market-(that's why they are where they are).

IBM PC clones on the other hand increased the availability of computers for the home user. The fact that Windows-software came out ahead during this growth is excellent marketing-this we agree on. But to say "Wintel" should get all/most of the credit is silly to be honest. It was the CLONE-motherboard and component people that fed the market the IBM PC... Even if the Software was free, if you can't afford the hardware what good would it be. The PC-clone companies turned $8,000 PC's into $3,000 PCs, then cheaper... The software had very little to do with this...

We also agree MS has helped people learn a similar "desktop-standard" so they can work together and learn together. But, MS is constantly pushing that freedom into a rabbit hole, which to me at least is not looking good for the consumer. They WON'T push all this "activation" garbage on the OEMs and Large-scale sales-(this is where they make all the money) But the little guy/consumer is going to be saddled with this "activation" fooey. Now, how are they looking out for the little guy? I personally could care less about the MS software cost, if it's super-dooper-great, then i'll buy it. But this "activation" fooey is going to give me a headache, this will be one more thing that can go wrong.

Linux is not for everyone, NP, we can agree on this. But shouldn't it be allowed to grow for those of us that do like it? Then why is MS attacking everything Linux/BSD stands for? I thought they were leaders? I thought they led through innovation, not scare tactics? Ohhh, thats right they crush competiton-(Netscape) then move onto the next little guy...

Its funny how it was ok for MS to offer IE for free in order to crush Netscape, but now that Linux/BSD is free they are all against free software. Saying it will ruin the software industry...

Perhaps we can both see a double-standard?
Again, let me state i have liked MS products for years, but this propoganda they are spreading is getting deep...

 

[Psychoholic]

<< Ohhh, thats right they crush competiton-(Netscape) then move onto the next little guy... >>


And getting rid of Netscape was a bad thing???

 

[IdahoB]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear - I just chucked in the reference to the IBM-PC as a comparitive example - I didn't say Wintel were entirely responsible for the growth of the home PC - BUT MS DID play a very important part in the development of consumer PC standards.

It's not that far removed from the WON ID system many games use to prevent pirates from playing online.&quot;But this &quot;activation&quot; fooey is going to give me a headache, this will be one more thing that can go wrong.&quot;

I wish to God people would actually stop listening to the propoganda crap coming out from the anti-MS corner and to the actual facts instead.

Product Activation is there to stop one thing - casual piracy amongst end-consumers and small businesses.

It does NOT prevent you doing anything you want to to your PC. Upgrade, completely replace, even use the same copy for several installs - you'll be fine. The only situation you will find a problem is when you give some of your mates a copy.

The only real purpose of activation is to force all end-users to validate with the MS PID database before the product is activated - stopping mass consumer piracy, which is Microsoft's right!

And how precisely is Microsoft going to &quot;STOP&quot; Linux and other BSD/GPL software? I don't personally believe Linux is a viable desktop solution for consumers, and more importantly, neither do any of the OEM manufactuers (and don't tell me it's because of their agreements with MS - do you really think if those agreements were dropped overnight they'd all suddenly offer Linux?).

 

[lucidguy]

Microsoft never maintained standards. Microsoft always &quot;broke&quot; standards, going from version to version of Windows, Office, IIS, and so on. The latest version of their data and networking protocols would always be slightly incompatible with older versions, therefore &quot;encouraging&quot; people to upgrade.

Microsoft also took existing standards, broke them, and cut other people off from trying to reestablish compatibility. They took a well-established standard (Kerberos), implemented an incompatible version for Windows, and patented the changes they made, so that no one could make the same or similar changes without violating the patent. They did the exact same thing with file and print sharing. The list goes on and on.

If there's a single company that has done more disservice to standardization in Information Technology, it's Microsoft.

On the other hand, some of the most valuable standards in Information Technology today are thanks to Open Source. The infrastructure of the Internet was developed using Open Source methodology. TCP/IP, email and the web browser were developed as Open Source tools. If you think there are any other more important standards at this time, you are fooling yourself.

Microsoft is a cancer upon the Information Technology community, and they must be cut off.

Thanks.

 

[Elledan]

'Product Activation' is so easily cracked that it has been a waste of time and effort for those programmers in Redmond.

I know one thing: only computer illiterate people and novice users will 'activate' their software, while nearly everybody else will just use a crack. (larger) Businesses will not have to activate their copies of XP. I know I would use a crack if I had any interest in installing and using XP.

 

[IdahoB]

Lucidguy, you bring a sense of joy to my heart. You really have a knack for BS. Congrats.

 

[Psychoholic]

IdahoB, you're talking to a brick wall. The anti-MS regime will believe nothing but the conspiracy BS that they love to produce at every opportunity.

I wish some of these people concerned about product activation could deal with some of the software protection schemes I have seen. I still will never understand why they feel as if Microsoft doesn't have the right to protect their product. Piracy is &quot;justified&quot; with claims of, &quot;they have more money than God&quot; and &quot;they'll never miss the money&quot;. What a load of BS, it's piracy plain and simple.

For all the people who are concerned about tracking, aside from the fact that your information is stored in a hash, don't you realize you're tracked so many other ways. How many of you have VIP grocery cards??? You know the ones that give you discounts on purchases. Don't you know they can track what you buy??? I bet your insurance company would like to know how many packs of cigarettes you buy in a months time. What about credit reports, DMV records, property tax listings, all of these things are readily available and give someone information about you. I don't know about everyone here but, even if the hardware information wasn't hashed, I am more concerned about other invasions of my privacy.

 

[Elledan]

<< Lucidguy, you bring a sense of joy to my heart. You really have a knack for BS. Congrats. >>


Not so much BS as you might think. The part about MS taking existing standards (or new standards) and modifying those so that they're no longer fully compatible with the actual standard is true.

 

[IdahoB]

&quot;If there's a single company that has done more disservice to standardization in Information Technology, it's Microsoft.&quot;

Strange comment - as I look around me I see around 500 PCs all running a version of Windows. When I go home, I'll use Windows to play Counterstrike with several thousand others running Windows. I'll e-mail my mother through Outlook Express. She'll pick it up with Hotmail.

What part of a disservice to standardiSation (sorry ) involves having your software as the standard?

 

[IdahoB]

The part about MS taking existing standards (or new standards) and modifying those so that they're no longer fully compatible with the actual standard is true.

Well, fair enough. I wasn't arguing that point. I was arguing that the end result of this is a chaotic lack of standards, which SEEMED to be Lucidguy's point, even though it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< Microsoft is a cancer upon the Information Technology community, and they must be cut off. >>


You referring to something as a cancer is kind of ironic don't you think???

From all I've heard from the MS haters you would rather have something shut down than to let the market and public decide, with their money, what should survive. I find it so strange that all you anti-MS people talk about the evil business practices of MS and then would be willing to resort to the same tatics that you supposedly loathe to try and destroy them.

Methinks you are the pot talking about the kettle.....

 

[lucidguy]

<< the evil business practices of MS >>



I did not for a single time refer to Microsoft as &quot;evil&quot;. The measure of what is evil and what isn't changes from person to person on basis of religion, morality, ethics and so on.

What Microsoft is, is a monopoly that has engaged in illegal anticompetitive business practices in the past and continues to do so. This has been well established by Federal courts. What Microsoft is, is a company that continually breaks existing standards, not to do any service to consumers, but simply to &quot;encourage&quot; upgrades and to improve their bottom line. What Microsoft is, is a company that places their profits above consumer convenience, choice and privacy. In which other industry do you find companies which make it more inconvenient for the consumer to use their latest product, more difficult to use their product in conjunction with other products, and force you to give up personal, private information as a part of the sale of their product?

There is no other company like this except Microsoft.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< I did not for a single time refer to Microsoft as &quot;evil&quot;. >>


You don't have to say it, it can be implied.



<< What Microsoft is, is a monopoly that has engaged in illegal anticompetitive business practices in the past and continues to do so. This has been well established by Federal courts. >>


Has anything been resolved, has Microsoft been dealt a blow like the government dealt the Bell industries??? No. Does Microsoft has competition??? Yes. Is it Microsoft's fault that their competition is not on par with Windows as a viable desktop operating system??? No. Sounds to me like the anti-MS regime is a bunch of whiny kids who object to the way the things in the real world are when they step out on their own for the first time.



<< What Microsoft is, is a company that continually breaks existing standards, not to do any service to consumers, but simply to &quot;encourage&quot; upgrades and to improve their bottom line. What Microsoft is, is a company that places their profits above consumer convenience, choice and privacy. >>


I would say Microsoft helped convenience me quite a bit. When I first started working here I needed 3 computers to handle all the tasks my job required. Now I can run them all from one. How is that not more convient???



<< In which other industry do you find companies which make it more inconvenient for the consumer to use their latest product, more difficult to use their product in conjunction with other products >>


I have had any problems with using Microsoft's products with what I need it to operate. Of course Linux doesn't run sh** here, but I guess you don't want to hear about that do you???



<< and force you to give up personal, private information as a part of the sale of their product? >>


Read my above posts, Lucid, you give up private information everytime you buy something. Ever stop to think about how much information you give when buy a house, or do you still live at home???



<< There is no other company like this except Microsoft. >>


Damn, that registered a 10 on the [/b]BS-o-meter[/b].

 

[IdahoB]

Almost all large business is in it for the profits - MS is no better and no worse.

Why can't you substantiate your points? In what way do MS &quot;make it more inconvenient for the consumer to use their latest product?&quot;

As for making it &quot;more difficult to use their product in conjunction with other products,&quot; this is a joke - compared to the compatibility of every other OS, Windows reigns supreme. You seem to be basing all your opinion on obscure server level protocols and technologies that the consumer cares ah heck all about.

And as for &quot;forcing you to give up personal, private information as a part of the sale of their product?&quot; you clearly haven't read or heard a single thing we've been saying. All MS gets is a hash code generated by your hardware IDs - if you don't register then they get nothing of any use whatsoever.

 

[BreakApart]

Some of you are losing your minds i think...

1. Nowhere did ANY of us say you should or had to use Linux/BSD!
The question: why is MS attacking Linux/BSD? Competition? Scared maybe?
If they are so great and all powerful why do they care about Open Source? I don't have an answer, do you?
Besides, why are some of you attacking an OS you don't use? Linux/BSD does NOT collect your info, or anything else that would offend you. So why the hostility towards an OS you prefer not to use? I don't get it Linux/BSD is nothing more than other option, why attack it?
The reason I question MS products is in my line of work I'll have to deal those products/customers. So i believe my questions are warranted.

2. No where did any of us say MS hasn't takin over the mainstream OS market!
However, the FACT is they have gotten into a lot of trouble lately over illegal business pratices they have used to get there. You can't deny that... Recent news has also hinted there may be an all new lawsuit against MS.

3. No where did any of us say MS should be destroyed NOW!
We are just pointing out that this BLIND faith you have for MS may lead others down the same path. Which would be a dis-service to people reading your propoganda. If we wanted to question FORD about it's truck safety, would that be ok? Or are they above the questioning also like MS is?

The FACT remains EVERYTHING MS is trying to implement can be broken/hacked. I'm not arguing that. My point is MS may be taking this information gathering stuff too far...
Link-1
Attack on Open Source


I would rather have people questioning MS, than people blindly following them.
Why is it so bad to question MS?
How come some of you get so defensive about questions? I fail to see how being above questioning is good for anyone...

 

[JellyBaby]

MS has done both great things and bad things. They're a mixed bag. You love it when they do something right (merging the NT engine with game compatabilitiy) but despise them when they go overboard (hardware locking). Always a mixed bag. That's why arguments on both sides are more or less equally valid.

And if you want to boycott any and all companies that have cheesy business practices I'm afraid you'll not be buying much of anything, ever.

Anyway, XP is looking good but I'll wait for the official release before deciding to upgrade. Office XP, on the other hand, doesn't look so hot so I'm skipping that one. So I'm only feeding the beast of redmond a salad this time, not filet mignon.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< The question: why is MS attacking Linux/BSD? Competition? Scared maybe? >>


I didn't know they were attacking, just protecting their interests.



<< If they are so great and all powerful why do they care about Open Source? I don't have an answer, do you? >>


If Linux and open source is so superior then why are you worried??? The public will embrace it with open arms and what Microsoft has to say to Congress will never make a difference. Why do you feel as if they have no right to lobby Congress???



<< The reason I question MS products is in my line of work I'll have to deal those products/customers. So i believe my questions are warranted. >>


If you deal with end users and one day the market steers away from Microsoft, I'll feel for you. I would hate to have to deal with the average Joe when it comes to Linux.



<< However, the FACT is they have gotten into a lot of trouble lately over illegal business pratices they have used to get there. You can't deny that... >>


Exactly what trouble have they gotten into??? The judical system is just looking at the case a little closer. There has been no final ruling against Microsoft.



<< Recent news has also hinted there may be an all new lawsuit against MS. >>


People sue all the time for stupid stuff what's your point??? Let me guess, you're one of those bleeding-heart liberals who thinks someone who chooses to smoke has the right to sue the comapny that made the cigarette.

I have no problem with questioning Microsoft. What I think is stupid is the baseless rumors, conspiracy theories, and baseless Microsoft bashing.

 

[IdahoB]

&quot;Some of you are losing your minds i think...&quot;

Only on the best days

&quot;1. Nowhere did ANY of us say you should or had to use Linux/BSD! The question: why is MS attacking Linux/BSD? Competition? Scared maybe? If they are so great and all powerful why do they care about Open Source? I don't have an answer, do you?&quot;

Are they attacking open source? Actually, the article you linked, and the changes to their licensing terms are more in the way of defence than offence. The GPL poses a great risk for Microsoft, simply because of the vast reams of code they produce could accidentally (or even maliciously) end up with some GPL code, particularly anything based around online technology. This means that they may end up having to Open Source WindowsXP - it's a crazy concept but one that has the MS laywers crying into their beers, I imagine.

The Register discusses it quite well: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/19953.html

&quot;Besides, why are some of you attacking an OS you don't use? Linux/BSD does NOT collect your info, or anything else that would offend you. So why the hostility towards an OS you prefer not to use? I don't get it Linux/BSD is nothing more than other option, why attack it?&quot;

I'm not attacking it - I was criticising the blinkered anti-MS attitude of some people. And WindowsXP doesn't collect your info either. Propoganda wins again.

2. Nowhere did any of us say MS hasn't takin over the mainstream OS market! However, the FACT is they have gotten into a lot of trouble lately over illegal business pratices they have used to get there. You can't deny that... Recent news has also hinted there may be an all new lawsuit against MS.

Wow, another technology and computing lawsuit - damn, they're rare, aren't they. Actually - I'm being unfair, MS is certainly beligerantly anti-competitive, like all big businesses, but that's got nothing to do with my fundemental point - that people are bashing MS and WindowsXP in particular on everything from blatent exageration to outright lies, and this is misleading, let along plain morally wrong.

&quot;3. No where did any of us say MS should be destroyed NOW!

Er... to quote our esteemed Lucidguy: &quot;Microsoft is a cancer upon the Information Technology community, and they must be cut off.&quot;

&quot;We are just pointing out that this BLIND faith you have for MS may lead others down the same path. Which would be a dis-service to people reading your propoganda. If we wanted to question FORD about it's truck safety, would that be ok? Or are they above the questioning also like MS is?

No, not at all - MS is not above questioning, and I have a few concerns over the implementation of Streaming Media software in XP, but all I'm saying is that all the propoganda, as you say, has come from the Open Source side and has very little basis in fact. I'm not a MS lover, I think their software is pretty good but that's about it.

&quot;The FACT remains EVERYTHING MS is trying to implement can be broken/hacked. I'm not arguing that. My point is MS may be taking this information gathering stuff too far...&quot;

For the last time, please - they don't get any info unless we give it to them by registering.

Thanks.

(Edit - formatting error)

 

[BreakApart]

IdahoB, I'll/we'll have wait till the final code to discuss the actual HASH coding.

My point is inorder to create a unique HASH it HAS to identify your hardware types. It simply cannot create a unique code by finding a hard-drive and a video card, they HAVE to be identified, or every computer with a video card and hard drive would get the same code.

As we all know what can be coded-HASH, can be decoded.

In all truth i could care less about the HASH if it's only used at &quot;activation&quot; time. But, with MS I highly doubt this will be the only use for the HASH. Time will tell...

Thanks for the discussion. I do pray everything the PRO-MS people is saying is true, hey we all want a superior OS don't we? But, if it's not true you can bet i'll be here when the truth comes out.

Psychoholic- why do you always have to categorize people? Can't i simply be someone who disagrees with you? That's kinda sad you have to be like that...

 

[IdahoB]

My point on the HASH coding issue is simple - if you don't register the product (ie: give personal information) what possible use is it to anyone? And anyway, how does knowing what hardware a user has give MS an advantage? Sure, I'm pretty confidant they'll do some statistical breakdowns and maybe shift their future development to suit certain hardware or something, but what else can they do?

 

[Psychoholic]

<< But, with MS I highly doubt this will be the only use for the HASH >>


What do you base this on???



<< Psychoholic- why do you always have to categorize people? Can't i simply be someone who disagrees with you? That's kinda sad you have to be like that... >>


Wouldn't regarding you as someone who disagrees with me be catgorizing you??? We all catagorize, even you. I quote you from the infamous XP Flame War thread that was locked....


<< If you disagree with lucidguy, then fine disagree or ignore him.
But, these goofballs that talk about hacking him to &quot;silence the infadel&quot; you people are scaring me... >>


Are you categorizing people as goofballs??? That's kind of sad that you have to be like that...

FWIW I have no grudge against you BreakApart. I just do disagree, and when people disagree with others they all catagorize. Cheers.

 

[BreakApart]

<< *******, but what else can they do? >>



My point exactly friend...
I don't know, but i don't like the direction it could lead...
-Tracking you online

Think of it as the ultimate cookie. lol...


Psychoholic- this will me my LAST reply to you till you stop acting so goofy.
Here is my reply to you->

 

[lucidguy]

This whole argument about whether a hash is valuable personal information or not, is unnecessary.

First, some terminology. A hash is a derivative of your hardware configuration. It is a string that is produced by applying a mathematical function to certain aspects of your entire hardware setup. Legally speaking, a hash is a derivative work.

Legally speaking, any derivative of your personal information is still your personal information. This is in line with derivatives of copyrighted works, which are protected as much as the original works by copyright law. If your personal information is protected by the law, then any derivatives thereof deserve equivalent protection.

Your hardware configuration is your personal information. Therefore, any derivatives thereof have equal protection under the law. It doesn't matter whether the derivative is of great use to Microsoft or not, it is still illegal for them to acquire it. It is illegal search and seizure. And they will get sued over this big time.

 

[natedog]

I don't know if this has been addressed because I'm too lazy to read all the posts........

People were saying that MS would change standards just enough so people would be &quot;encouraged&quot; to upgrade. Well, DUH! What the hell, Microsoft should just stick with the standards made in the early 90's and not push forward?

I liken this to videogames. This is the same as damning Nintendo and the like for constantly releasing new systems. Damn them for making things better!