WinXP slamming, FUDs, GPL arguments... whatnot

[BreakApart]

LOL!!!!
Hows this for better? Yea, right. lol...

Zdnet Article about OfficeXP...

Linky

Funny he never reinstalled it, or changed hardware-(its a laptop). lol...
No, not MS they are fighting for the lil person, they just want to make life easier for you. lol...

 

[gunf1ghter]

nate,

Despite my disdain for Lucidguys rantings he is right about MS violating standards policies. They have repeatedly taken standardized software (java, kerberos, html, etc) and modified it to the point of it being incompatible with other vendors stuff. Then they patent it.

I would like to point out though that even Sun is being sued because they have produced non compliant software written with Java.

 

[CocaCola5]

I want to ask all the people who supports MS's activation feature this, "Would Microsoft, after the release of XP, give people back a refund on their copy of XP if they decide to use Linux instead?"

If Microsoft insist on this activation featureas for its worth in fighting piracy, there should be no reason for MS not to give back the refund on XP should people ask for one. As a matter of fact, I strongly feel that if MS still refuse to do so at that time, the whole feature should be made illegal and removed from all MS OS.

 

[pyr]

<<
As for making it &quot;more difficult to use their product in conjunction with other products,&quot; this is a joke - compared to the compatibility of every other OS, Windows reigns supreme. You seem to be basing all your opinion on obscure server level protocols and technologies that the consumer cares ah heck all about.

And as for &quot;forcing you to give up personal, private information as a part of the sale of their product?&quot; you clearly haven't read or heard a single thing we've been saying. All MS gets is a hash code generated by your hardware IDs - if you don't register then they get nothing of any use whatsoever. >>



ok the first statement is provable. remember the Dr Dos/win3.1 thing? MS incorporated an 'error message' that popped up whenever someone started win3.1 using anything other than MSdos that pretty much said 'using this <other product> will cause windows to work improperly' They lied about that one for years. If they lie about that one, what other things have they broken so that other companies products will not work with them? Im sure its happened more than just that one time.

the second doesnt really address the problem. there was an issue with Win98 sending info unbeknownst to the user back to MS. what kind of information? they wont say. hell they could be compiling a list of all your passwords, the contents of your drive, etc. Im not saying thats what they did, but it is very possible. sure you have to give out your personal info when you buy a house and stuff, but at least you *know* you are giving it out, or at least you are giving it out for a good reason. giving out personal info just to get a product you legally own working is not acceptable.

 

[pyr]

<<
Your hardware configuration is your personal information. Therefore, any derivatives thereof have equal protection under the law. It doesn't matter whether the derivative is of great use to Microsoft or not, it is still illegal for them to acquire it. It is illegal search and seizure. And they will get sued over this big time. >>



I got news for you friend. you are only protected from search and seizure by the government. Last i checked MS doesnt qualify.

 

[gunf1ghter]

cocacola5,

You know, it's funny that you brought the right to get a refund up. Microsoft has probably the best software refund policy in the industry. They guarentee all of their applications (including games) for 30 days satisfaction guarentee.

I had to return a piece of MS software to CompUSA once and despite their ironclad &quot;no return on opened software&quot; policy once they saw it was an MS program they quickly refunded the money. I never even had to call MS to make good on the guarentee.

An operating system is a little different, but I want to point out that they have a very liberal guarentee policy on all their other software.

 

[pyr]

<< You know, it's funny that you brought the right to get a refund up. Microsoft has probably the best software refund policy in the industry. They guarentee all of their applications (including games) for 30 days satisfaction guarentee. >>



what he is talking about is how it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a refund on an MS OS product. If you buy a laptop, and format it without EVER letting windows start, then return the software for a refund you wont get one ever. there was a whole thing about this a while ago. even tho it says in the EULA that you can, it will never happen.

 

[Soybomb]

<< Product Activation is there to stop one thing - casual piracy amongst end-consumers and small businesses. >>

Thats microsofts problem not mine, I don't particaularly want to be inconvenienced by their anti-piracy ideas and I sure think having to call ms when I reformat or change my config an inconvenience. Yeah I could crack it too, but why should I have to? I paid for the pieice of software, I just want' to use it. I don't want to waste my time calling to get a code, or cracking it. I just want it to work.

 

[IdahoB]

Okay, this is just getting absurd. I'll concede on some of the issues below, mainly because until the OS is actually out, we don't know - but not on this absurdist product activation bull I'm getting.

&quot;First, some terminology. A hash is a derivative of your hardware configuration. It is a string that is produced by applying a mathematical function to certain aspects of your entire hardware setup. Legally speaking, a hash is a derivative work.&quot;

Since when has a serial number or product ID counted as copyrighted intellectual property? Oh, this gets better...

&quot;Legally speaking, any derivative of your personal information is still your personal information. This is in line with derivatives of copyrighted works, which are protected as much as the original works by copyright law. If your personal information is protected by the law, then any derivatives thereof deserve equivalent protection.&quot;

So you're saying the the product ID of my harddrive is my personal information? My copyrighted intellectual property?

&quot;Your hardware configuration is your personal information. Therefore, any derivatives thereof have equal protection under the law. It doesn't matter whether the derivative is of great use to Microsoft or not, it is still illegal for them to acquire it. It is illegal search and seizure. And they will get sued over this big time.&quot;

By who? Us? The little man? Are you considering some class actio, mate? I'd love to see how far that would get in court.

I'll re-iterate my stand. Sending a code generated by my hardware setup ANONYMOUSLY is not invasion of my personal info, no matter which way I look at it.

I have to admit I liked that ZDNet article. But let's be fair - this was a bug, an error - not a deliberate plan by MS to scupper his machine, and had he been anywhere else than on a plane it would have taken seconds to resolve. I'm certainly not about to argue that MS software isn't buggy - I'm not THAT stupid.

 

[lucidguy]

<< I'll re-iterate my stand. Sending a code generated by my hardware setup ANONYMOUSLY is not invasion of my personal info, no matter which way I look at it. >>



Your stand is wrong. A derivative of personal info is still personal info.

I won't drag this out any longer, because I made my case clearly, and you have only managed to say that you believe otherwise, without quoting any laws or legal precedents or anything to back up your side. You just babbled.

And I have no time to debate with babblers.

 

[HansXP]

<< And I have no time to debate with babblers. >>



Then why do you keep going into every XP thread and starting a debate???

 

[Zer]

The DR-DOS issue is BS. That only occured with a beta version, not the final version.

 

[Soybomb]

<< So you're saying the the product ID of my harddrive is my personal information? My copyrighted intellectual property? >>

So clearly then if it were to transmit your social security number or drivers license numbers is not your personal information because it isn't your intellectual property? In the same sense then isn't the serial number of your harddrive just as identifying a mark for your machine as your ssn is for you? Does it not stand to reason then that any mathematical result of operations involving personal identification numbers could be used to identify you in ways other then intended?

 

[gunf1ghter]

Saying that a hard drive serial number (which is for all intents and purposes MEANINGLESS information) has anything in common with something like your SS# (which can be used to get credit history, etc) is pretty silly.

 

[lucidguy]

<< Saying that a hard drive serial number (which is for all intents and purposes MEANINGLESS information) has anything in common with something like your SS# (which can be used to get credit history, etc) is pretty silly. >>



I can tell you a thousand things that are common both to a hard drive serial number and a social security number.

They are both strings of digits.

Each number is associated either with a single person, or with a single unique item that belongs to a single person. In either case, the number is &quot;personally identifying information&quot;.

It is a violation of your privacy to try to acquire either number without the permission of its owner. This is because the number is &quot;personally identifying information&quot;.

It is a violation of your privacy to try to acquire derivatives of either number. The derivative of personally identifying information is still personally identifying information.

I could go on, but there is no need. Legally speaking, a hard drive serial number is pretty darn similar to a SS#.

 

[IdahoB]

Fine Lucid - I'm not going to argue with you on this point, because there clearly is nowhere else to go on it. You will go to any lengths to back up your anti-MS hype and I can't be bothered to reason with you any longer. You call me a babbler, yet you haven't backed up your arguments with any real facts either. Anyone reading your arguments with an open mind will be laughing at the concept that a HASH code generated by your hardware config for the sole purpose of identifying your computer in order to confirm the legality of your software is an invasion of privacy.

It doesn't really matter anyway, I'm not in this to promote XP, I was just getting annoyed at the deliberate exagerations and horror stories about XP. I'm going to buy it, you're not. End of story and I apologise for any inadvertant offence. And I await the day when the GPL has taken over the world.

 

[lucidguy]

<< a HASH code generated by your hardware config for the sole purpose of identifying your computer in order to confirm the legality of your software >>



You have no idea what Microsoft is going to end up doing with that derivative of your personal information. Microsoft says that they will use it only to prevent piracy. But do you believe them? Since when has Microsoft been truthful and honest? Hell, Bill Gates committed perjury by lying on the witness stand during the Microsoft trial. Microsoft tried to introduce fradulent testimony as evidence to the courts. Both times they were caught red-handed, and they did not so much as issue a public apology. These people have obviously made lying and cheating part of their standard business strategies. If these are the people you're trusting with derivative of your personal information, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you.

 

[IdahoB]

Okay, tell me one thing they could possibly do with this anonymous HASH sequence. One thing that would really be innapropriate.

 

[lucidguy]

Read the Activation vs. Registration thread I recently created for an answer to your question.

 

[Psychoholic]

Coke

<< I want to ask all the people who supports MS's activation feature this, &quot;Would Microsoft, after the release of XP, give people back a refund on their copy of XP if they decide to use Linux instead? >>


Would Red Hat if you bought their CD??? After all from what I've seen of Linux it's way more likely to disappoint than W2K or XP.

Soybomb


<< Thats microsofts problem not mine, I don't particaularly want to be inconvenienced by their anti-piracy ideas and I sure think having to call ms when I reformat or change my config an inconvenience. >>


What do you do for a living??? Do you feel as if you have the right to protect anything you do from being stolen??? If you feel as if anyone can steal someone else's work I sure hope you're not an engineer, song writer, or an gallery artist.



<< So clearly then if it were to transmit your social security number or drivers license numbers is not your personal information because it isn't your intellectual property? >>


Do you know how easily your DL# or SS# can be obtained??? Why all the bitching about privacy, you people act as if this is the first time your personal information has been available.

lucid


<< You just babbled.
And I have no time to debate with babblers. >>


Talk about irony.



<< I can tell you a thousand things that are common both to a hard drive serial number and a social security number.
They are both strings of digits.
Each number is associated either with a single person, or with a single unique item that belongs to a single person. In either case, the number is &quot;personally identifying information&quot;.
It is a violation of your privacy to try to acquire either number without the permission of its owner. This is because the number is &quot;personally identifying information&quot;.
It is a violation of your privacy to try to acquire derivatives of either number. The derivative of personally identifying information is still personally identifying information.
I could go on, but there is no need. Legally speaking, a hard drive serial number is pretty darn similar to a SS#. >>


I thought you told us in your previous post you weren't going to drag this out any longer with babblers.
Pot and kettle time again.....



<< You have no idea what Microsoft is going to end up doing with that derivative of your personal information. Microsoft says that they will use it only to prevent piracy. But do you believe them? Since when has Microsoft been truthful and honest? Hell, Bill Gates committed perjury by lying on the witness stand during the Microsoft trial. Microsoft tried to introduce fradulent testimony as evidence to the courts. Both times they were caught red-handed, and they did not so much as issue a public apology. These people have obviously made lying and cheating part of their standard business strategies. If these are the people you're trusting with derivative of your personal information, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you. >>


...and again. Babble, babble, babble.....



<< Read the Activation vs. Registration thread I recently created for an answer to your question. >>


....and more babble. Even though it's in another thread

 

[Soybomb]

<< Would Red Hat if you bought their CD??? After all from what I've seen of Linux it's way more likely to disappoint than W2K or >>

I think we're talking about different issues here. Wanting to return a product after you use it is one thing. Wanting to return a product that you were forced to pay for and won't and haven't used is another story. Personally I build my own machines so its reall yof little concern to me, but I think those are fundamentally different things. Its like returning a pair of underwear you've worn with what you havent' worn and is still in the package.

<< What do you do for a living??? Do you feel as if you have the right to protect anything you do from being stolen??? If you feel as if anyone can steal someone else's work I sure hope you're not an engineer, song writer, or an gallery artist. >>

Actually I do a bunch of things, I'm a student, a pc tech, unix admin in training, amateur photographer, been a writer/nespaper editor, etc. I never said down with copyright laws or that its alright to steal someone elses work, I just said I don't agree with their way of doing it. To me as a consumer, its an inconvenience and I don't want that. I look at it this way. I can go out and pay $100 for my OS and take it out of the box and use it with out having to call anyone, crack it, etc. It was quite nice like now. Now I'm faced with taking it out of the box for $100 and cracking it because I don't want to have to call MS for each reinstall, hardware change, etc. Or I could just d/l a precracked copy and use that. To me it seems like it will encourage alot more piracy. I'm not saying I'll pirate it (quite frankly I dont' have any reason to use it over 2k), but I think its just more of a hassle than I feel like dealing with. They're welcome to protect their software in ways that are nonintrusive to me.

<< Do you know how easily your DL# or SS# can be obtained??? >>

Yup pretty easily, does that mean I agree with it and am willing to put it my ssn on a sign above my front door, on my business card, etc? I try to keep mine from floating all over and I don't see I need another identifying number floating all over too. I don't shred my mail like some people I know, but I'm also not going to be giving out such identifiation numbers just because some company thinks its a good idea either.

The bottom line for me is, I don't like having a unique ID number to be given out. MS might have great intentions for it, but what happens when some employee or hacker steals a database full of them? Is it going to be transmitted at other times? &quot;cracked&quot; to figure out what hardware I have and sold to marketing? The risk of anything bad happening is pretty marginal, but just on my own pricpals, I don't like being assigned a unique id number that is used for &quot;tracking&quot; if you will. Most of all though I just don't like the inconvenience of registration. So let me ask a question too, 5 years down the road when MS decides XP is no longer their best os and has release a new one that I like about as much as I like ME and I change hardware, how am I sure they'll give me a number to unlock it? &quot;I'm sorry sir, we've upgraded and no longer offer codes for that OS, but you have a $10 credit to Win POOP.&quot; I don't like the idea of being potentially able to be forced into an upgrade. Overall, feel free to protect your product, but when that protection infringes on me, you'll loose me as a customer.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< . I never said down with copyright laws or that its alright to steal someone elses work, I just said I don't agree with their way of doing it. To me as a consumer, its an inconvenience and I don't want that. >>


Protecting your interests is very often inconvient to those who use it. But them just like you are entitled to try it however they see fit.

As stated before you have the option of not buying it. If the dollar loss affects MS then they decide to change it. At any rate protecting their software has one purpose and one purpose only, to help prevent piracy. It's not to convince you.



<< Yup pretty easily, does that mean I agree with it and am willing to put it my ssn on a sign above my front door, on my business card, etc? >>


This is what I don't understand from all the naysayers. Why is it just become fashionable to what privacy. Where was everyone when our privacy was originally stripped away??? I think it is more of a Microsoft-hate issue than a privacy issue although no one would ever admit to it. You have a corporation that makes lots of money and people resent that.

 

[skace]

&quot;At any rate protecting their software has one purpose and one purpose only, to help prevent piracy. &quot;
Your so sure its only to prevent piracy and yet people already know ways around it....

&quot;Where was everyone when our privacy was originally stripped away???&quot;
Not born? You have to stand up for the things that affect you in the present. Just because your great great grandfather was a sheep doesn't mean you have to be one.

 

[HansXP]

<< Your so sure its only to prevent piracy and yet people already know ways around it.... >>



The average consumer doesn't. That's what they want to stop: the nieghbor who borrows your 98 CD and installs the OS on his computer. They aren't even trying to stop us geeks...

 

[skace]

My neighbor buys his PC from compaq and wouldn't know what to do with an OS CD if I handed him one. So it probably isn't for him. Like I said before, there is few people who don't know enough to get warez but know how to reformat, install a new OS, and set it up. You disagree?