Wisconsin Senate Passes Union Reform Legislation

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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Why is the fair market value of a job determined by a negotiating settlement where one party has vastly more resources than the other? Do you think that a billion dollar corporation and an individual with zero net worth are going to reach an agreement that represents the true value of that individual's labor?

The individuals labor is not fair market value, the labor is what is paid at fair market value. If the individual thinks he is worth more, but someone else will do the job for less than that labor is what is being bargained for. The individual can continue to look for someone willing to pay him for his labor at what he thinks a fair value of his time is worth.
 

Naeeldar

Senior member
Aug 20, 2001
854
1
81
You must have learned a real skill and have a job that kids can't do!

Look I may have been harsh but the fact of the matter is I'm extremely tired of the manufacturing complaints these days. I'm sorry but working on assembly line even ignoring China wages is not going to put you into middle class anymore.

It just reminds me so much of the newspaper industry and their complete refusal to adapt with the changing world. That's why that industry is dying.

The manufacturing complaints are similar to me. NO matter how you slice it the dollar value on those types of jobs is far lower. Even if you ignore overseas. Which btw is not just related to manufacturing it's also happening in tech industry. Thats what happens in a global world.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Ironic that the Republican State Senators passed this bill through the Senate chamber with the votes saying they are able to do it because its not a fiscal issue.



Thanks for confirming what we knew all along.


The collective bargaining part of it is a fiscal issue in an abstract way. While there are no hard dollars associated with it, which allowed them to vote on it, the ability to modify the collective bargaining rights of union members will save the state dollars in the long term.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,665
0
71
Look I may have been harsh but the fact of the matter is I'm extremely tired of the manufacturing complaints these days. I'm sorry but working on assembly line even ignoring China wages is not going to put you into middle class anymore.

Ha, don't be so quick to apologize. Sure your comment was a bit of a hyperbole, but it also has a lot of truth to it. Some people just never get it - it's always someone else's fault.

The bottom line is that American unions are having a really hard time staying relevant in a global economy. It hit my home state first, when the Japanese started eating Detroit because their CEOs thought long-term and their laborers didn't demand to be compensated as well as physicians. This country's fucked from top to bottom.
 

colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,777
18
81
Go Walker! Use the force for good to defeat the democrats on the dark side of the force, for they are aligned with tyranny and marxism. Defeat them before their debt star destroys us all.
I bet you dont even know what is marxism..
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Here's an email that was recently sent to Republican senators...the name is deleted and I understand that a police investigation is currently underway.

It's funny, but the people complaining about it are the same people that were:

a) fairly muted when a wack job rightwing nut murdered an abortion doctor

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/george-tiller-killed-abor_n_209504.html

b) Jerked off to invading Iraq for B.S. reasons

c) Jerked off to torture

d) fairly muted when a gunman opened fire at a unitarian church for being 'liberal'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Also, you'd think conservatives would wait for an investigation, considering Walker considered causing trouble by using fake plant protestors to make them look bad.

Conservatives: Actually KILL people (and cheer it on some of the time).
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/examples-of-collective-bargaining-abuse.html

It does appear there is some reform needed. Number 6 is sad, outstanding first year teacher laid off because of lack of seniority.

1. In 2009, the City of Madison’s highest paid employee was a bus driver who earned $159,258, including $109,892 in overtime, guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement. In total, seven City of Madison bus drivers made more than $100,000 per year in 2009.

2. Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

In part because of these practices, 13 correctional officers made more than $100,000 in 2009, despite earning base wages of less than $60,000 per year. The officers received an average of $66,000 in overtime pay for an average annual salary of more than $123,000 with the highest paid receiving $151,181.

3. Under the Green Bay School District’s collectively bargained Emeritus Program, teaches can retire and receive a year’s worth of salary for working only 30 days over a three year period. This is paid in addition to their already guaranteed pension and health care payouts.

4. Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement, Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensions upon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year.

5. Some state employees, due to the nature of their positions, are required to carry pagers during off-duty hours in order to respond to emergency situations. Due to the collective bargaining agreements, these employees are compensated an extra five hours of pay each week, whether they are paged or not. For an employee earning an average salary of $50,000 per year, this requirement can cost more than $6,000 in additional compensation.

6. Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

7. As a cost cutting measure, Racine County began using county inmates to cut the grass in medians and right-of-ways at no cost to the taxpayers. A county employee union filed a grievance indicating it was the right of government workers to cut the grass, even though it would cost the taxpayers dramatically more.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
Does anyone have a pointer to the exact language of how union dues work in WI? Are they the same for all, or a % of salary or what? Are they tax-deductible? Would be interesting to see something like post #310 above on how dues are collected.

TIA.

EDIT: talking about the teachers union of course.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
I’m hearing and reading a national school student walk out this Friday 2pm in protest, is in the making.
Interesting....
Reminds me of the Vietnam war student protests, if it materializes.

The national walk-out today was historic. It basically crippled this country. At least a dozen students walked out today. Perhaps even a baker's dozen. Truly historic.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Our right-wing nuts here supportredistribution of wealth to the most rich from the rest of the country.

That's long been the Republican agenda, and it's been the clear result of their policies since Reagan.

Today, it's especially obvious. You see states where they are shifting $1.7 billion this say, by taking it in increased taxes/cuts from three sources - the poor, the elderly, and donations to public education; and cutting business taxes by about the same $1.7 billion. Doesn't get much more clear.

Things like 'races to the bottom' where states are pressured to comete by cutting taxes to the bone on the businesses who can pick one state or another, while shifting those taxes to the working residents who do not have that mobility, is one huge shift towards plutocracy.

These aren't 'cuts needed to balance the budget', they are transfers of wealth.
 

comptr6

Senior member
Feb 22, 2011
246
0
0
Our right-wing nuts here supportredistribution of wealth to the most rich from the rest of the country.

That's long been the Republican agenda, and it's been the clear result of their policies since Reagan.

Today, it's especially obvious. You see states where they are shifting $1.7 billion this say, by taking it in increased taxes/cuts from three sources - the poor, the elderly, and donations to public education; and cutting business taxes by about the same $1.7 billion. Doesn't get much more clear.

Things like 'races to the bottom' where states are pressured to comete by cutting taxes to the bone on the businesses who can pick one state or another, while shifting those taxes to the working residents who do not have that mobility, is one huge shift towards plutocracy.

These aren't 'cuts needed to balance the budget', they are transfers of wealth.

What a BUNCH OF CRAP. School teachers in Wisconsin get paid more than any in any other state and they have the 2nd worst school system in the country.

It's not too much to ask that they make sacrifices for the greater good when the amount they make is offensive and TAX PAYERS are struggling. But hey, don't freak out yet because we're just getting started!

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/148575-federal-workers-100k-targeted
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
Our right-wing nuts here supportredistribution of wealth to the most rich from the rest of the country.

That's long been the Republican agenda, and it's been the clear result of their policies since Reagan.

Today, it's especially obvious. You see states where they are shifting $1.7 billion this say, by taking it in increased taxes/cuts from three sources - the poor, the elderly, and donations to public education; and cutting business taxes by about the same $1.7 billion. Doesn't get much more clear.

Things like 'races to the bottom' where states are pressured to comete by cutting taxes to the bone on the businesses who can pick one state or another, while shifting those taxes to the working residents who do not have that mobility, is one huge shift towards plutocracy.

These aren't 'cuts needed to balance the budget', they are transfers of wealth.

I don't think businesses are as mobile as you think. Of course I remember Boeing moving their headquarters to Chicago due to tax problems with WA state.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/examples-of-collective-bargaining-abuse.html

It does appear there is some reform needed. Number 6 is sad, outstanding first year teacher laid off because of lack of seniority.
Thank you for the post. As a 30 year former member of the UAW, I thought our leaders from time to time were getting us some absolutely absurd fringe benefits. For example, at one point we could get a quarterly bonus check for "good attendance". Like the people who didn't make it into work were interested in the money and this would incentivise them to come in? It was only a couple hundred dollars. The program was shit canned after it was proven not to work.

These points spelled out in your post highlight the absolute absurdities of unions "providing" for their members to justify the existence of the union itself. Things spiral out of control for decades until insane perks such as these eventually break the camel's back. This is truly a situation that must be brought back down to the reality of the times we are living in.

#2 is insane.

I really hope the media picks this up and runs with it. I guess FOX would be the only one that would do so. The counterpoint to the arguments must be made. Anyone of a reasonable mind would see that benefits of this nature are not sustainable.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
Our right-wing nuts here supportredistribution of wealth to the most rich from the rest of the country.

That's long been the Republican agenda, and it's been the clear result of their policies since Reagan.

Today, it's especially obvious. You see states where they are shifting $1.7 billion this say, by taking it in increased taxes/cuts from three sources - the poor, the elderly, and donations to public education; and cutting business taxes by about the same $1.7 billion. Doesn't get much more clear.

Things like 'races to the bottom' where states are pressured to comete by cutting taxes to the bone on the businesses who can pick one state or another, while shifting those taxes to the working residents who do not have that mobility, is one huge shift towards plutocracy.

These aren't 'cuts needed to balance the budget', they are transfers of wealth.

Its a little ridiculous to claim that businesses are more mobile than average workers. That fails the sniff test.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,256
1
0
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/examples-of-collective-bargaining-abuse.html

It does appear there is some reform needed. Number 6 is sad, outstanding first year teacher laid off because of lack of seniority.

Walker brings unwanted attention to local teacher

Sampson said Thursday she felt uncomfortable with the governor using her experience to push an agenda.

"My opinions about the union have changed over the past eight months, and I am hurt that this story is being used to make me the poster child for this political agenda," Sampson said. "Bottom line: I am trying to do my job and all this attention is interference and stress for me."


Also, here's another one. Racine got hammered by a blizzard in February. It was so severe that emergency services stopped responding because they couldn't use the roads. Even a local cop got stuck on the road overnight during the blizzard. For the first time ever, the city asked the local snowmobile club for help getting to stranded motorists. Cleanup took days and many people complained.

Union appeals snow blizzard grievance

American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees Local 67 claims the city violated their collective bargaining agreement when it hired private contractors to help with the post-blizzard snow removal

...

The grievance cites a provision in the 2009-2010 contract they had been working under in February, which states: The city has management rights “to contract out for goods or services, however there shall be no layoffs or reduction in hours due to any contracting out of work.”

Deputy City Attorney Scott Letteney, lead union labor negotiator for city, said the city did not lay off Local 67 members or reduce their hours, as many of them filed for overtime. He also pointed to a provision in the contract that allows the city “to take whatever action” necessary in an emergency.

Relying solely on union members would have resulted in paralyzing the city for even longer. Does that matter to these greedy jerks?
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
It's funny, but the people complaining about it are the same people that were:

a) fairly muted when a wack job rightwing nut murdered an abortion doctor

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/george-tiller-killed-abor_n_209504.html

b) Jerked off to invading Iraq for B.S. reasons

c) Jerked off to torture

d) fairly muted when a gunman opened fire at a unitarian church for being 'liberal'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25872864/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Also, you'd think conservatives would wait for an investigation, considering Walker considered causing trouble by using fake plant protestors to make them look bad.

Conservatives: Actually KILL people (and cheer it on some of the time).
There is no rational defense for such hatred...all you offer is diversion as if this somehow absolves the Party of Hate from the rancid taint that's so prevalent in their midst.
 
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Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
Walker says no layoffs. So much for shrinking the size of government...but that was never the real intention.

Either the rich keep their Bush tax cuts or the middle class takes a pay cut. GOP won that battle.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,611
3,456
136
Its a little ridiculous to claim that businesses are more mobile than average workers. That fails the sniff test.

Maybe not small businesses. But Intel and Boeing can build plants wherever they want, as long as that state gives them the sweetest property and income tax exemptions.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
Maybe not small businesses. But Intel and Boeing can build plants wherever they want, as long as that state gives them the sweetest property and income tax exemptions.

And a competitive business environment is bad because...? It is not like Boeing or Intel can just pick these plants up move em at will.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Walker says no layoffs. So much for shrinking the size of government...but that was never the real intention.

Either the rich keep their Bush tax cuts or the middle class takes a pay cut. GOP won that battle.

WALKER is not going to lay anyone off. But he's going to cut state aide to the municipalities and give THEM the option to do it or raise local taxes. If you don't understand whats happening in WI you should probably just refrain from posting.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
If you don't understand whats happening in WI you should probably just refrain from posting.

LOL...that's never stopped the 100% of the posters in P&N who do it from posting before now.....on any subject (i.e. yes, every single mother fucker here posts about shit that they don't know about just to make "their side" look better).
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
LOL...that's never stopped the 100% of the posters in P&N who do it from posting before now.....on any subject (i.e. yes, every single mother fucker here posts about shit that they don't know about just to make "their side" look better).

It's uber-ironic from him especially. He'd be quiet as a mouse.
 
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