Woman in combat

[werepossum]

I wonder how the qualifications will be relaxed, if at all. I remember a study when Clinton was looking at doing this which found that something like 80% of female soldiers could not throw a hand grenade beyond its lethal radius. Something like that is rather more significant to other soldiers than whether a female soldier cats around or refuses to carry her own gear, I'd think.

 

[cwjerome]

I work with greensuiters every day and I've had a chance to talk with a few about females in the military. The officers I spoke with said that females in their units caused a lot of headaches because of all the drama. Female soldier likes male soldier and they start meeting in dark corners. Few weeks later female soldier ditches first male and hooks up with his buddy. Male soldiers fight and unit cohesiveness is lost.

I have worked around some excellent female soldiers who are dedicated and capable at what they do but I think bringing females into combat units was a mistake. Men and women AREN'T the same so why try to make them the same?

I don't think anyone is really saying men and women are the same, just that men and women can do some of the same jobs effectively.

As far as drama, the males need to mature up and quit being little dipshits around the females, it's a two way street and blaming them for all the troubles is silly. There are men and women in this military, get over it, and act accordingly.

You will not see a female doing the kinds of heavy patrols in austere environments that have been mentioned in this thread. You just won't. But there are a ton of MOS/positions cut off from females, like tank mechanics, etc, that can and will be filled. This will give the military more flexibility and reach-back than before, and it's the right thing to do.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Sign their asses up for the draft too.

No. Please, no. That's suicide.

 

[nehalem256]

You will not see a female doing the kinds of heavy patrols in austere environments that have been mentioned in this thread. You just won't. But there are a ton of MOS/positions cut off from females, like tank mechanics, etc, that can and will be filled. This will give the military more flexibility and reach-back than before, and it's the right thing to do.

Um you do realize this is about putting women in frontline combat positions.

I would suspect women can already serve as tank mechanics. You wouldnt typically want to waste mechanics in frontline combat.

 

[cave_dweller]

Looking at the the ones Israel got in their army I realize now why the Palestinian men go look for trouble and let Israel invade them. I wouldn't mind getting invaded by them

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Women say they want equal rights. (But do they want equal responsibilities?) When are we going to start making all young women sign up for the draft?

 

[StrangerGuy]

Women say they want equal rights. (But do they want equal responsibilities?) When are we going to start making all young women sign up for the draft?

Equal responsibilities would mean equal treatment right? I'm fine with that, if women get the same sentences for sexual crimes, men can also get same amount of child support from women, etc. But no, that will be sexist.

 

[cave_dweller]

So this will give countries the right to bomb woman and children claiming they were soldiers?

 

[cwjerome]

Um you do realize this is about putting women in frontline combat positions.

I would suspect women can already serve as tank mechanics. You wouldnt typically want to waste mechanics in frontline combat.

You are wrong, what the restriction lifts are slots only open to males. Females will have access to a wide range of positions in the combat arms that used to only be filled by males. Frontline combat doesn't necessary mean patrols, especially in today's operational environment.

The focus in this thread by people against the move are those rough patrols carrying lots of gear. I'm guessing you won't find many females trying for that or being successful. In the off chance a crazy tough female does get through, it'll ultimately be up to the CO and PL leadership on whether she patrols.

 

[nehalem256]

You are wrong, what the restriction lifts are slots only open to males. Females will have access to a wide range of positions in the combat arms that used to only be filled by males. Frontline combat doesn't necessary mean patrols, especially in today's operational environment.

I seriously doubt a mechanic is considered frontline combat. I mean did you read the story about the female combat engineer? To me her job sounds more like frontline combat than a mechanic. If your mechanics are engaging in firefights something has gone horribly wrong.

But it sounds like what you are really say is that the real grunt duty still will be carried out by men, but we will pretend to recognize women as equal.

 

[cave_dweller]

What is frontline combat? What if that mechanic while driving to another depot get ambushed and taken as a POW? Who makes the rules. Who draws the lines? You wear a uniform and your in a warzone your are just as at risk as that guy crawling in a bush towards enemy positions

 

[nehalem256]

What is frontline combat? What if that mechanic while driving to another depot get ambushed and taken as a POW? Who makes the rules. Who draws the lines? You wear a uniform and your in a warzone your are just as at risk as that guy crawling in a bush towards enemy positions

My understanding is frontline combat units are those you intend to have directly fight the enemy. As I have said hopefully your mechanics do not directly the enemy.

So, oddly, a combat engineer is not considered a frontline combat unit. Although from the woman's story they do get shot at.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.

 

[cave_dweller]

My understanding is frontline combat units are those you intend to have directly fight the enemy. As I have said hopefully your mechanics do not directly the enemy.

So, oddly, a combat engineer is not considered a frontline combat unit. Although from the woman's story they do get shot at.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

I remember a african american woman think Johnson was her surname and the other one was Lynch rushed to provide supplies to another unit. They were ambushed shot and captured. They were rescued eventually. One wrote a book and got more pay for the incident than the other then a other problem arise cause she was white she got treated better and got more pay.

 

[cwjerome]

I seriously doubt a mechanic is considered frontline combat. I mean did you read the story about the female combat engineer? To me her job sounds more like frontline combat than a mechanic. If your mechanics are engaging in firefights something has gone horribly wrong.

But it sounds like what you are really say is that the real grunt duty still will be carried out by men, but we will pretend to recognize women as equal.

You keep mentioning frontline combat but I'm not even sure you know what that means. Women are already in "frontline combat" and have been for 10 years. This opens the door for women to serve in traditional male-only roles in the combat arms, and there are a ton of combat roles that are perfectly suitable for females.

And yes, the .5% of the duties that you call "real grunt duty" will almost certainly still be carried out by males, because few if any women will both get past the training and be assigned to that particular task.

 

[1prophet]

You are wrong, what the restriction lifts are slots only open to males. Females will have access to a wide range of positions in the combat arms that used to only be filled by males. Frontline combat doesn't necessary mean patrols, especially in today's operational environment.

The focus in this thread by people against the move are those rough patrols carrying lots of gear. I'm guessing you won't find many females trying for that or being successful. In the off chance a crazy tough female does get through, it'll ultimately be up to the CO and PL leadership on whether she patrols.

First female Bradley mechanic enlistee. July 3, 2012

http://www.army.mil/article/83066/

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, July 3, 2012) -- Cicely Verstein didn't plan on breaking any new ground when she enlisted in the Army. But the job she selected at the recruiting station has thrust her into the military spotlight.

At age 21, Verstein will be the first female 91M Bradley Fighting Vehicle System maintainer, one of six positions that in the past were restricted to men but are for the first time hiring women.

Originally from Pennsylvania but now residing in West Virginia, Verstein has been wanting to join the Army for the last five years, but waited until she spent some time in college.

"I wanted to join when I was 16, but my family wasn't behind me," she said. "So I went to college. But I kept looking into [the Army] and found a job that I liked and started the process."

As a system maintainer, Verstein will be repairing engines and other parts, diagnosing system problems and generally making sure the Bradleys are in top shape. The mechanical work appeals to Verstein, who has fixed motors and other machines in the past.

"I've always been interested in working on cars," she said. "It seemed like an interesting job to me and I want to learn more about it."

SOLDIER SAFETY ON YOUR SHOULDERS

The Bradley fighting vehicle entered service for the Army in 1981, about 31 years ago. Chief Warrant Officer 2 Corey Hoff of the Pennsylvania Army National Guard has worked on Bradleys for the last 18 years as a mechanic, including spending 18 months in Iraq.

As a system maintainer who has worked both overseas and on U.S. soil, Hoff stressed the importance of the job in ensuring Soldiers' safety, especially when that responsibility falls on the shoulders of a new recruit.

"Just take pride in everything you do because the troops depend on it," he said. "You need to stay on top of everything; be aware at all times of what's going on with your vehicle."

Verstein is eager to begin training for her new position in spite of her unique standing as the first woman to hold the job. She said she views herself as a strong woman who is capable of pulling her weight in the field, and that she expects that her fellow Soldiers will treat her as such.

"Hopefully they'll know that I'm there to do my job and that's what I want to do, and they'll respect me just like they do each other," Verstein said.

Verstein noted that she did not choose to apply to be an Army system maintainer because she wanted to set a precedent; rather, she simply liked the work.

"I mean, I joined the Army because I found a job that I wanted to do," Verstein said. "I didn't do this for the publicity or anything like that."

The Army is now offering six new Military Occupational Specialty, or MOSs, to women. Among those are Multiple Launch Rocket System crewmember (13M), MLRS Operations fire detection specialist (13P), Field Artillery Firefinder radar operator (13R), M1 Abrams Tank System maintainer (91A), Bradley Fighting Vehicle System maintainer (91M) and artillery mechanic (91P).

Verstein begins basic training in November, and will continue on after that to advanced individual training at Fort Benning, Ga.

 

[cave_dweller]

^So you are either a button pusher, a grease monkey, receptionist or a human smoke detector?

 

[Onceler]

they want to be equal, make them as equal as possible. Oh excuse me, it was equal pay not equal danger.

 

[nehalem256]

they want to be equal, make them as equal as possible. Oh excuse me, it was equal pay not equal danger.

Feminism in a nutshell.

 

[Carfax83]

Great, and she's attractive to boot. She's going to have the men she works with wrapped around her finger; even the officers....

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Great, and she's attractive to boot. She's going to have the men she works with wrapped around her finger; even the officers....

Or she will be loathed if she is not able to pull her own psychical weight on the job and always requiring that a male counter-part with her there to ensure the job gets done on time.

 

[chucky2]

The Bradley is an amoured fighting vehicle...HowTF is she going to hack it stuck in a jungle setting for 13 months pulling 100 lb. engine parts up and out in 110 degree heat and 90% humidity? All the while the 5 young single other crewmen who would already be wacking off at least once every third day get to watch her bent over and spread eagled working? They'll be shooting themselves to end the torture, forget the enemy...

 

[klinc]

The French woman snipers can use their arm pits as cover

 

[randomrogue]

Surprised this has not been discussed yet. So Leon Panetta gave the go ahead for women to join front line infantry units. Obviously women serving now have seen combat, but this is a new level.

Is this good or bad? I was PDQed when I joined the Army years ago... so other than my 3 days at the processing centers I haven't been in a combat unit.

Overall I think there are probably some women who are physically capable. But I am not really for this new rule. I think the numbers of women desiring to be in the role is probably pretty small. The military is probably looking at a big expense to integrate this small number of female soldiers into combat units.

Interested to hear the thoughts of others. Is it about time or is this just political correctness run rampant.

I don't understand how we can have gays in the military or women in combat. It makes no sense. Everyone is going to be fucking each other and not thinking about their jobs. You're going to have gay men fucking men in the trenches and women giving head during major combat operations.

/sarcasm

What the fuck does their sex have to do with anything as long as they're qualified?

If the enemy starts raping POW's they'll be breaching the Geneva conventions and be getting punished both internationally as well as by our own military.

 

[klinc]

I don't understand how we can have gays in the military or women in combat. It makes no sense. Everyone is going to be fucking each other and not thinking about their jobs. You're going to have gay men fucking men in the trenches and women giving head during major combat operations.

/sarcasm

What the fuck does their sex have to do with anything as long as they're qualified?

If the enemy starts raping POW's they'll be breaching the Geneva conventions and be getting punished both internationally as well as by our own military.

I really think allowing them in the army is a strategy to get rid of homosexuals (gays and lesbians)

 

[randomrogue]

I really think allowing them in the army is a strategy to get rid of homosexuals (gays and lesbians)

Oh you got that right! They want to eradicate homosexuals, atheists, and democrats from this earth and women in a few more combat roles is just the way to do it.