Woman in combat

[Atreus21]

 

[jackschmittusa]

I have mixed feelings on this.

Passing training identical to men would be a necessity, especially with most types of light infantry (paratroopers, mountain troops, etc.) and independent small units i.e. special forces since they must hump a lot of gear and on stealth missions, often a long distance, perhaps over rough terrain. Falling out once a mission was underway would present a lot of problems.

I also remember a guy who worked for me telling of his experience with a woman in his outfit. He was Marine Corp. Reserve in a comm outfit. He had to take time off from work for training. When he came back he was furious. His unit's job was to land with a large assault force, find a hill or other high ground they could occupy, hump a lot of heavy gear to the top and set up their comm post. This was the third such exercise he had done with a woman in their unit. And for the third time, she claimed it was "that time of the month" for her, had cramps, and asked to be excused. And for the third time she was excused, with no obvious penalty. Everyone in the unit hated her for it.

I have no idea if this will become more prevalent, but combat would be a lousy place to find out. Realistic training and rational evaluation of what constitutes a passing grade would be essential.

 

[bozack]

they should be eligable for the draft as well

 

[chucky2]

I'd say:

1.) Must pass - in Reality - same physical tests men must pass. No looking other way under the table exception 'oh yes they are meeting the same quals' BS.

2.) Must take whatever method that stops monthly period.

3.) Not all facilities should bear the expense to be retrofitted to handle women in the combat unit. So if a woman wants to be assigned to one, she'll have to be assigned to the few designated posts.

4.) Rape must be reported immediately, in written form, to next 3 highest in Leadership chain. Failure to report rape immediately invalidates rape accusations unless video evidence is provided. Obviously grace period while deployed and no available communication exists is a given.

5.) Unauthorized PG is immediate dishonorable discharge unless in case of rape.

As long as those are taken care of, I don't see the problem. In fact, given how the US Military is used in modern form, it'd probably be a good idea to have some women in many of these combat units.

Chuck

 

[cave_dweller]

It is but lets be honest with ourselves. The idea of a woman being tortured or raped will generate more outrage than a man.

I would not worry about that as much as I would worry about sending them to countries where they see woman as their lesser. You think that countries male population is going to take orders from a woman or show any respect like they would with a male soldier? So I think they will be very selective as where they place them. Shoshana Johnson and Jessica Lynch can you remember how that turned out? Lynch got million-dollar book deal and more in disability payments from the military than Johnson and the media had a field day.

 

[nextJin]

Awww, sounds like someone was a fuckup in the service and found a way to blame women.

He wasn't far from the truth......

@OP this all boils down to two female officers fighting for women rights for little to no reason. They don't want to be in combat units anymore than 99 % of females currently serving. The standards probably won't change which means you won't see many if any women at all.

If the standards are lowered then by all means when America's moms and daughters start coming home in body bags blame liberals.

I'm old fashioned and with the things I've seen and experienced I'd rather not have my sisters do it. My brothers yea sign up and start putting rounds down range. Women are our greatest assets and should be cherished. They comfort and raise our children. They have the hardest job already by being a mom.

So if the women of this country want fairness then let's do it.

Standards stay the same across the board
They have to sign up for the draft
If they fail to get the needed scores for anything but combat arms that's what they get.
At no point can they be pulled from the front lines due to hygiene.

 

[Wreckem]

I can definitely see both sides on this. Women want and have equality in most things, so why not allow them to be in front line infantry units? I do think they need to be able to pass the exact same physical tests that men do. The few real issues I see are:
1. Quarters. You'll have to have separate barracks and facilities for females. I'm sure this is already worked out with existing female soldiers, so not a big deal.
2. Pregnancy. I don't think a pregnant woman needs to be on the front line. This is a distraction and the nature of this unit could result in miscarriages.
3. Chivalry. Men will do some dumb emotional crap for women that they wouldn't do for men. I could definitely see male squad mates making poor decisions based on wanting to "save the girl."

I think you could mitigate most of these by making female only units, though I'm not sure you'd be able to sell that as PC. Female only units would all bunk together, have a somewhat reduced chance of pregnancy, and have a lower chance of crazy decisions based on male gallantry.

Female soliders who gets pregnant would return from deployment just like they do now. These days theres not much different than the front line and doing support work for the front line(which women were already allowed to do).

 

[nehalem256]

Female soliders who gets pregnant would return from deployment just like they do now. These days theres not much different than the front line and doing support work for the front line(which women were already allowed to do).

Which is complete BS. If a woman chooses to get pregnant while on deployment she should be dishonorably discharged.

 

[hal2kilo]

Apparently "not raping women" is something a lot of them have issues with.

Zing!

 

[Wreckem]

Which is complete BS. If a woman chooses to get pregnant while on deployment she should be dishonorably discharged.

And the military should actually prosecute rape/sexual assault cases instead of blaming the victim and kicking her out. We both know neither is going to happen.

 

[Ackmed]

It's a fucking terrible idea. The FACT is, the average male is stronger than the average woman. There is no getting around, or denying this. I carried an average of 100lbs on 4-8 hour patrols, twice a day in Afghanistan. And I was hurting every time, and am far from a weakling. Sure you can find some women who are stronger than some men, but that is a very low percentage.

During workups, we are all crushed together in "housing", and it would be a huge problem making room for women, because they would have to have their own space. Not counting while in country. I know the pampered Army, Navy, and Air Force have on average very good living quarters while deployed. Marine grunt units in Afghanistan have shitty living quarters from what I have seen. We were in the middle of nowhere, with a GP tent. No AC, no running water, no electricity. So we would have to make a separate living space for a female or two? We had one hesco shitter/whack shack. No we have to build another? We had two FET's who were a disgrace. Handing off their weapon to jump over canals and such. They complained the entire patrol, and only last three until they went back to Leatherneck. Which I am sure what they wanted.

The Marine Corps is just now making females do pullups. Guess what they need for a perfect score? 8. EIGHT. What do men need? 20. TWENTY. They get more time to run the 3 miles, have to do less ammo can presses in the CFT. Why? Because they are weaker. Plain and simple.

I think women can do most jobs in the military as well as any male. Being a grunt on the front lines is simply not one of them. And not every male can do it either to be honest. It would creat too much of a distraction, they aren't physically strong enough for it, and the logistical nightmare it would create is just not worth it. Most grunt units give the smallest guy the heaviest weapon/gear. M249, radio, etc. Do that to a woman and I guarantee they would complain and cry hazing or some shit.

This is me from an average patrol in Afghan, stopping at another PB.

This is a typical patrol outfit, I am on the right. An AT4. A M16/203 with 18 total 20 rounds. 2 grenades, 3 smoke grenades, 7 magazines of 5.56. Flak, sapi's, at least one liter of water, food, NVG's, metal detector (I am a combat engineer), daypack that you can't really see full of demo and 100 rounds of 7.62 for our 240 gunner because we had to go out with 1000 rounds and we spread loaded it, because it's fucking heavy.

I was leading every patrol looking for IED's. And I'll be honest, there were times when I just fucking didn't care anymore if I stepped on one. I was so fucking tired, my back hurt, my shoulders hurt, my entire body fucking hurt. It's a million fucking degrees outside, and I just didn't care at that exact moment if I died or not, I was over it. I am not bragging, or claiming to be some super human, but I have never met another female Marine who could do what I did physically. Not to mention the emotional stress or losing several close Marines while patrolling. There is news when we lose any service member, if a female goes down on the front lines it would be a media hype storm. See all those sand bags in the back? They didn't fill themselves, Marines did it. And that's back breaking too.

cliff notes, I don't hate females in service. I just don't think they need to be on the front lines. I have first hand experience with them in such a case, and it went poorly. That being said, it went poorly with a few men as well.

 

[finglobes]

This is more weirdo BALONEY meant to demoralize the military.

Do women play football in the NFL? Do they even play in college etc?

Its farcical and psychotic to think women are equal physically.

They are also MUCH more prone to PTSD, depression , mood disorders etc

I don't even want to get into what an opening like a vagina means in a dirty fox hole.

Oh and lets not forget now troops will need all the extras for womens showers etc. Might as well hire all the extra lawyers ready to court-martial some schlub because he told a potty joke some girl found offensive.

The radicals on the left always sought to use hyper-diversity as a way to seed chaos. The military was always the main target. They can't weird it out fast enough.

 

[rudder]

I honestly don't know why pregnancy is allowed in the military in general.

But it certainly has no place in combat units.

This has been an issue with the 6 month naval deployments.

 

[Doboji]

It's a fucking terrible idea. The FACT is, the average male is stronger than the average woman. There is no getting around, or denying this. I carried an average of 100lbs on 4-8 hour patrols, twice a day in Afghanistan. And I was hurting every time, and am far from a weakling. Sure you can find some women who are stronger than some men, but that is a very low percentage.

During workups, we are all crushed together in "housing", and it would be a huge problem making room for women, because they would have to have their own space. Not counting while in country. I know the pampered Army, Navy, and Air Force have on average very good living quarters while deployed. Marine grunt units in Afghanistan have shitty living quarters from what I have seen. We were in the middle of nowhere, with a GP tent. No AC, no running water, no electricity. So we would have to make a separate living space for a female or two? We had one hesco shitter/whack shack. No we have to build another? We had two FET's who were a disgrace. Handing off their weapon to jump over canals and such. They complained the entire patrol, and only last three until they went back to Leatherneck. Which I am sure what they wanted.

The Marine Corps is just now making females do pullups. Guess what they need for a perfect score? 8. EIGHT. What do men need? 20. TWENTY. They get more time to run the 3 miles, have to do less ammo can presses in the CFT. Why? Because they are weaker. Plain and simple.

I think women can do most jobs in the military as well as any male. Being a grunt on the front lines is simply not one of them. And not every male can do it either to be honest. It would creat too much of a distraction, they aren't physically strong enough for it, and the logistical nightmare it would create is just not worth it. Most grunt units give the smallest guy the heaviest weapon/gear. M249, radio, etc. Do that to a woman and I guarantee they would complain and cry hazing or some shit.

This is me from an average patrol in Afghan, stopping at another PB.

This is a typical patrol outfit, I am on the right. An AT4. A M16/203 with 18 total 20 rounds. 2 grenades, 3 smoke grenades, 7 magazines of 5.56. Flak, sapi's, at least one liter of water, food, NVG's, metal detector (I am a combat engineer), daypack that you can't really see full of demo and 100 rounds of 7.62 for our 240 gunner because we had to go out with 1000 rounds and we spread loaded it, because it's fucking heavy.

I was leading every patrol looking for IED's. And I'll be honest, there were times when I just fucking didn't care anymore if I stepped on one. I was so fucking tired, my back hurt, my shoulders hurt, my entire body fucking hurt. It's a million fucking degrees outside, and I just didn't care at that exact moment if I died or not, I was over it. I am not bragging, or claiming to be some super human, but I have never met another female Marine who could do what I did physically. Not to mention the emotional stress or losing several close Marines while patrolling. There is news when we lose any service member, if a female goes down on the front lines it would be a media hype storm. See all those sand bags in the back? They didn't fill themselves, Marines did it. And that's back breaking too.

cliff notes, I don't hate females in service. I just don't think they need to be on the front lines. I have first hand experience with them in such a case, and it went poorly. That being said, it went poorly with a few men as well.

I am 6'5" 300lb man... compared to me, you are a like a woman. I can carry more gear, further and faster than you can. You shouldn't qualify for combat duty because there are stronger men out there better suited.

Oh it doesn't actually work that way does it? Nope... Decide what the physical requirements for the job is. Thats it. Gender does not matter... And don't go pushing it to extremes just to try and keep women out. Decide what is REALLY needed to be combat ready, and set regulations accordingly.

The only thing this change does is take away definition by gender. It might actually make things better in the long run in terms of qualifying and promoting based on equal footing.

 

[chucky2]

I am 6'5" 300lb man... compared to me, you are a like a woman. I can carry more gear, further and faster than you can. You shouldn't qualify for combat duty because there are stronger men out there better suited.

Oh it doesn't actually work that way does it? Nope... Decide what the physical requirements for the job is. Thats it. Gender does not matter... And don't go pushing it to extremes just to try and keep women out. Decide what is REALLY needed to be combat ready, and set regulations accordingly.

The only thing this change does is take away definition by gender. It might actually make things better in the long run in terms of qualifying and promoting based on equal footing.

That's what he just said. He listed the physical requirements of their job, and said the females could not meet them.

 

[Ackmed]

I am 6'5" 300lb man... compared to me, you are a like a woman. I can carry more gear, further and faster than you can. You shouldn't qualify for combat duty because there are stronger men out there better suited.

Oh it doesn't actually work that way does it? Nope... Decide what the physical requirements for the job is. Thats it. Gender does not matter... And don't go pushing it to extremes just to try and keep women out. Decide what is REALLY needed to be combat ready, and set regulations accordingly.

The only thing this change does is take away definition by gender. It might actually make things better in the long run in terms of qualifying and promoting based on equal footing.

So you're a fattie? Good job, you wouldn't be in the Marine Corps anyways. Fatties are getting kicked out left and right now days, finally. And as I said, I did carry all they asked me too. The general woman could not. Sure my experience leans towards the extreme, but that's what is going to happen. Some women are going to be put into that position.

There are different physical requirements in doing PFT/CFT tests between women and men. There are differences for a reason. I have too many pictures and stories to tell that would help my case, but I don't care. You didn't serve with women in combat situations, I have. You have not been deployed, I have. You were not in my situation, to know what I am talking about.

 

[chucky2]

Sexist.

 

[Doboji]

So you're a fattie? Good job, you wouldn't be in the Marine Corps anyways. Fatties are getting kicked out left and right now days, finally. And as I said, I did carry all they asked me too. The general woman could not. Sure my experience leans towards the extreme, but that's what is going to happen. Some women are going to be put into that position.

There are different physical requirements in doing PFT/CFT tests between women and men. There are differences for a reason. I have too many pictures and stories to tell that would help my case, but I don't care. You didn't serve with women in combat situations, I have. You have not been deployed, I have. You were not in my situation, to know what I am talking about.

You don't seem to get it. The notion of differentiating based on gender is stupid. Differentiate based on performance. If the performance requirement is to shoot an M-16 in your off hand while carrying a 45 pound pumpkin in the other... then let everyone do that. Those that can make it, those that can't don't. Stop making it about gender...

If it makes you feel better telling me I wasn't deployed so I'm not entitled to my opinion... then feel better. But it doesn't make you right... and it doesn't change policy.

You call me fattie... I call you shrimp..next?

 

[cwjerome]

Of course the average male is stronger than the average female. The point is, IF a female meets the requirements she should be able to do it. There wouldn't be many, that's for sure, but it should be open to them. We're a mature force, a professional force, and a force that represents our core values. Operational lessons learned over the last 10 years has shown it wouldn't be the catastrophe some predicted. IF they can do it, let them do it, I am all about merit and opportunity. Back in OCS, there were some women who could run circles around most men and do more situps. I've been on plenty of nasty rucks where studs were falling out and females pushed through. I have been to SERE at Fort Rucker and some of those females were tough, stellar performers. If it's good enough for Israel, I think we can handle it.

 

[chucky2]

You don't seem to get it. The notion of differentiating based on gender is stupid. Differentiate based on performance. If the performance requirement is to shoot an M-16 in your off hand while carrying a 45 pound pumpkin in the other... then let everyone do that. Those that can make it, those that can't don't. Stop making it about gender...

If it makes you feel better telling me I wasn't deployed so I'm not entitled to my opinion... then feel better. But it doesn't make you right... and it doesn't change policy.

You call me fattie... I call you shrimp..next?

You're not getting it. He's not saying they shouldn't be able to serve period in combat period, he's saying they shouldn't be allowed to serve unless they can meet the physical quals. And based on what he's seen and experienced, they can't meet the physical quals (except in outlier circumstances). The extra overhead of having to deal with handling females is just 'icing on the cake'.

He and you are saying the same thing essentially, he's just obviously more opposed to it given what he's seen and experienced.

 

[Doboji]

It sounds to me like he's just saying Woman can't do it, and never will be able to do what he can do. Therefore they shouldn't be on the front lines..

 

[chucky2]

It sounds to me like he's just saying Woman can't do it, and never will be able to do what he can do. Therefore they shouldn't be on the front lines..

Yeah, that is what he is basically saying. But he's not saying it from a 'I'm a man and those gentle women just need to stay in the kitchen', he's saying based on the physical trials he went through, other than some outlier women who could possibly hack it, women in general won't be able to hack it. Then on top of that, you add in needless (to the mission) overhead of having to now deal with women mixed in with men in combat situation.

This fixes exactly what military problem?

That's right, it fixes no military problems, short of some very select ones (high shortage of reliable translators perhaps, etc.).

DC just created a whole bunch of problems for the Military to solve. I'm for equality, and think they should be given their fair chance, but I'd really not be making this widespread to every combat unit.

Those that are OK with this should also be pushing for men and women to be combined at the Olympics. Curiously, I have not seen that plea, and I wonder why that is...

Chuck

 

[cwjerome]

Those that are OK with this should also be pushing for men and women to be combined at the Olympics. Curiously, I have not seen that plea, and I wonder why that is...

Those are competitive games and I have no problem establishing differences in gender or skill. I don't consider the US military to be a game. The military is a job with a goal, and as long as people can meet the standards, they should have the opportunity to serve in a particular area.

 

[Nebor]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

This female Marine Corps Captain outlines why women can't endure combat positions as well as men. Basically, for that 2% of women that CAN hang with a Marine or Army light infantry unit, they'll be operating at 100% of their physical capability in situations where the men are operating at 50% of theirs. This has been borne out in the Marine Infantry Officer Course, where both women candidates suffered debilitating physical injuries before completing the course, and in the Army's Ranger school, where all there women suffered debilitating physical injuries before completing the course. You can also look at OCS & TBS (The Basic School) and see that women are 15x more likely to be removed from those courses due to debilitating physical injury because they're required the carry the same weight and perform the same duties as men.

My prediction is that very few women will volunteer for combat positions. Out of them, even fewer will make it in. Out of them, even fewer will complete a tour of duty in such a unit. And out of them, virtually none will choose to do it again.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Arm wrestle for it