Women's rights under Islam

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
My only question is why is it any of our business how another religion runs things? Who's to say they arent happy? IMHO this is a worthless discussion.

It acts as fuel for those who irrationally fear Islam

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: blackangst1
My only question is why is it any of our business how another religion runs things? Who's to say they arent happy? IMHO this is a worthless discussion.

It acts as fuel for those who irrationally fear Islam

Then why does the Islam faith need to change their ways? Because they offend someone? Perhaps those it offends need to learn a little self control? Perhaps a little personal responsibility?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
My only question is why is it any of our business how another religion runs things? Who's to say they arent happy? IMHO this is a worthless discussion.

I don't have any problem with our having our opinions that are negative (or positive) about other cultures and countries. Not to allow that would leave us silent on female circumcision mutilation, the holocaust, rwanda and darfur, slavery, and much more. We have our values, and that's ok. I'm also fine with out wanting to communicate our views to others (and to hear theirs). And I agree with our preference for global democracy so that other societies' peoples can choose their own governments.

These opinions should be balanced by a respect for others' views to be different.

I start to have a problem when our opinions are used to demonize groups and pave the way for discrimination and violence.

For example, for decades our nation had common wisdom that the Japanese were 'inscrutable' and untrustworty; trust one, and they were plottig to stab you in the back.

It's the same sort of hysteria that allows caricatures like that to be believed about people who are not well known. Today, of course, almost no one would view Japanese that way.

At the time, it would surely inhibit Japanese rights; they'd have a hard time being elected and would face prejudice in business. Today, we better understand some of the Japanese culture as having an especially high regard for honor dating back centuries. We're not as familiar with the muslim culture.

There are always some who are stirring up hate, whether it's the KKK, or people in the middle east who push for even more hate of the west, or those Japanese militarists who pushed for attacking other asians and the west in WWII (and still have yet to really face what they did to the Chinese), or neo-nazis in Germany today, or the people in this forum who cheer a list like this not because they want to help muslim women but because they want an excuse to hate the muslims as a group, even though they don't realize it.

There is a group in the US who is only happy when the US is in the role of 'the good guys' fighting evil. And they'll make an evil enemy to do that whatever it takes.

It's a little like the old days when a village would hunt for witches and kill them, making them all feel moral for fighting evil, while actually being the ones doing the evil.

 

[f95toli]

It is perhaps worth remembering that when those laws where written down about 1300 year ago they were huge step FORWARD for womens right.
I am not defending Sharia in any way, but compared to e.g. the laws in the old testament they are quite modern and liberal. The only difference is that few countries have ever tried to use us the laws in the bible/Tora, although as far as I know at least some of the religios parties in Israel DO want their legal system to be based on the Tora.
Also, from what I understand the nutcases in the "Lords Liberation Army" (an extreme fundamentalist christian guerilla operating in Uganda) at least pretend to use biblical laws in the areas which they control.

Moreover, in most western countries it was legal for men to "punish" their wifes (i.e. beat them) up until something like 150 years ago. In USA it was legal even longer.
English common law at the time maintained that it was OK for man to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb.

Again, this is no reason to use sharia today; but it is important to realize that many of the things we now consider "barbaric" in some muslim countries was accepted as normal in most of the western world up until quite recently.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Aimster
A) Women have an education in almost every Muslim country.
The largest Muslim nation Indonesia with 250 million people (It is an asian country) had a woman President a few years ago

Is that supposed to make things alright?

How foreign aid funded sharia

WHEN people around the world sent millions of pounds to help the stricken Indonesian province of Aceh after the Boxing Day tsunami of 2004, few could have imagined that their money would end up subsidising the lashing of women in public.

But militant Islamists have since imposed sharia law in Aceh and have cornered Indonesian government funds to organise a moral vigilante force that harasses women and stages frequent displays of humiliation and state-sanctioned violence.

International aid workers and Indonesian women?s organisations are now expressing dismay that the flow of foreign cash for reconstruction has allowed the government to spend scarce money on a new bureaucracy and religious police to enforce puritan laws, such as the compulsory wearing of headscarves.

Some say there are more ?sharia police? than regular police on the local government payroll and that many of them are aggressive young men...

...Fatimah, a human rights worker, was arrested after a seminar at a hotel in Banda Aceh when sharia police burst in to find her without a proper headscarf while chatting in the corridor to a male colleague.

Accused of ?khalwat?, a vague term that covers proximity between unmarried men and women, she was dragged off to a police station, where she was detained, deprived of sleep and questioned for three days before being released without charge. ?It was a nightmare that I will not be able to forget for the rest of my life,? she said.

For international donors, who gave generously to end the nightmare of the tsunami, the next few months will pose hard choices. ?Nobody intended our aid to subsidise this,? said one United Nations official.

Radical Islam spreads and we turn a blind eye. I wonder, which country is next to fall under religious oppression?

what part of radical do you not understand?

they are called radical for a reason you know

that's like me bringing up an example of radical christians and labeling them as the majority of christians.

come on.

I just proved women in islamic countries have an education. Why are you trying to prove otherwise? To justify hate maybe?

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Originally posted by: pcy
Hi,


That lsit may be true, but it's noting to do with Islam.

The subjuection of Women in this way is totally un-acceptable, but that is nothing to do with Islam.

Yet again the laws and culture in one state wher Islam happens to be the dominant religion, are being represented as the teachings of Islam itself.


The best way to counter Islamic extremeism is to demonstarte how un0Islamic it is - remove the justification for the extremeism...




Peter

It has plenty to do with Islam. Women throughout the Koran are abused.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why I'm glad I live in a country where the vast majority only pretend to be religious.

America would be much better if all the supposed Christians actually acted like real Christians.

I guess it depends on the flavor of Christianity. I knd of like the mainstream type, you know the kind where you are only a Christian on Sunday and on certain Holidays (or in this case, certain threads). I guess the being forgiven thing is the key though. You can sin your ass off but if you ask for forgiveness you are ok. Anyway I prefer to be around these kind of religious followers than the Fundies or the nut cases (like Muslims and Southern Baptists)

We call them Sunday Christians. They usually go to church for show, and/or contacts/networking. Personally, I don't even attend a church at the moment.

 

[magomago]

total BS on all counts. Beyond trying to say that culture is religion, it also blatantly AND subtly lies about many things.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why I'm glad I live in a country where the vast majority only pretend to be religious.

America would be much better if all the supposed Christians actually acted like real Christians.

I'm probably the best at this thread due to my makeup. I'm not Muslim but I grew up in a Muslim family myself. My dad was Muslim my mom wasn?t, however my dad instilled a lot of his beliefs on us. The Muslim religion is very strict first off. They don't allow much wiggle room as due other religions. Going on to their beliefs regarding women. Well, I would have to say they don't have or hold a HIGH regard for women. I wasn?t born in the Middle East but in the U.S. I visited Karachi Pakistan while I was 12 yo. I noticed how women were treated generally. They are treated generally subservient to the men. The Men in Islamic culture hold's higher authority for making major financial/family decisions in the household. This system has been going on for thousands of years to the point were women who grow up and live there right now that are subject to the very same system believe there is nothing wrong with it. The very same things can be said true about the United States as well. Particularly in the U.S. we objectify our women here. Their bodies are sex objects posted in magazines (playboy) for the satisfaction of a young adolescent. I?m sure Muslims in particular will find that disgusting as well. However, as far as that list goes I think is a gross exaggeration of what actually happens.

Good post, its nice to hear from someone thats familiar with both cultures. I have noticed that the bolded part is a common way some muslims counter criticism of the way they treat women. But there is a big difference that should be pointed out, namely that in the west women really choose to dress/act sexy often in spite of family/community norms. Now I know muslims might counter that woman in islamic cultures also choose to dress and act subservient, but I don't buy it especially considering that their choice just happens to agree with the family/community norms that can and are enforced rather harshly.

 

[magomago]

Just to cherry pick a few that I've seem appear a lot...I'm actually going to search through my post history and bring a few of these up because its amazing that no matter how many times you post something people will pretend as if they never read anything (I'm not necessarily referring the OP but I've wrote quite a bit and know that a few of the readers in this thread HAVE seen)

* A woman must provide four witnesses to substantiate her claim of being raped.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=52&threadid=1960630&enterthread=y

READ THAT.


I also know I've written much on many of the other topics there...but honestly I suck at searching and luckily the link above was an easy find and the only find after about 20 minutes of searching

If you guys are really interested - try doing some research on the internet and it quickly becomes apparant of the real laws of islam...of which all here are absolutely distorted(If you want a second wife your CURRENT wife has to agree -if she doesn't agree tough luck; good luck finding a gal who wouldn't mind you sleeping with another...) or mistated (A man can divorce her wife by stating "i divorce you" three times)


edit:

i did one more search to test the system out
i searched for "bush" (ie: our President) and found just THREE threads that came up in the results. Two on on the economy by dmcowen, and the last on internet access....but I know his name has appeared WAY more than in three threads...
shows how either a) broken the system is or b) how bad i'm at searching

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

I have pointed out numerous democcratic Islamic states which are all the largest Islamic states in the world. Yet you continue to ignore that fact and bring up corrupt countries where the populations are not even 1/2 of the nations I listed.

 

[yllus]

Sorry guys, I'm as big a critic of religion as anyone, but little to none of that is accurate.

Those may be cultural values for regions in which Islam is popular, but they are not Islamic values as dictated by the Koran. And the Koran is law (literally).

If you feel beholden to consider Islam the enemy, remember that it's best to actually and literally know thy enemy. Not what you've heard about your enemy via e-mail chain letters.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

I have pointed out numerous democcratic Islamic states which are all the largest Islamic states in the world. Yet you continue to ignore that fact and bring up corrupt countries where the populations are not even 1/2 of the nations I listed.

The nations you listed still have strict as hell laws that will get you executed.

 

[Craig234]

About women who do sex work in the US:

But there is a big difference that should be pointed out, namely that in the west women really choose to dress/act sexy often in spite of family/community norms.

We have big economic pressures on the women to do so. Just as the economic opportunities for African Americans are so limited as to greatly incent their selling drugs, there's a many-billion dollar industry in porn, strip clubs, prostitution and more that is very compelling economically for many women.

The economics are also driving many Eastern European women into the online webcam market to get western dollars, and there are Asian women literally enslaved and shipped around the world in the sex trade, including probably thousands in the US, with the occassional arrest.

On the one hand, there's an element of 'freedom' to the women getting into the sex trade. But in my view, most of them are doing it for the money, not because they want to. That's not quite the same innocent explanation as the 'they just like to dress sexy' issue.

And remember, even on that issue, there's an issue of how our culture teaches women how to act, influenceing their 'free choice'. I like the freedom; but I don't think we're without room for critical observations about our sex behaviors.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Craig234
About women who do sex work in the US:

But there is a big difference that should be pointed out, namely that in the west women really choose to dress/act sexy often in spite of family/community norms.

We have big economic pressures on the women to do so. Just as the economic opportunities for African Americans are so limited as to greatly incent their selling drugs, there's a many-billion dollar industry in porn, strip clubs, prostitution and more that is very compelling economically for many women.

The economics are also driving many Eastern European women into the online webcam market to get western dollars, and there are Asian women literally enslaved and shipped around the world in the sex trade, including probably thousands in the US, with the occassional arrest.

On the one hand, there's an element of 'freedom' to the women getting into the sex trade. But in my view, most of them are doing it for the money, not because they want to. That's not quite the same innocent explanation as the 'they just like to dress sexy' issue.

And remember, even on that issue, there's an issue of how our culture teaches women how to act, influenceing their 'free choice'. I like the freedom; but I don't think we're without room for critical observations about our sex behaviors.

Woah... theres a difference between women wearing skirts or posing for playboy and prostitution. My comments were addressing the idea that western culture somehow objectifies women by force in the same way that some muslim cultures force women into subservient second class roles.

Sure women here are influenced by media and scantily clad pop stars and even porn. But they are also influenced by their families, schools, and churches in usually the opposite direction. And all of these influencing factors are not backed up with the threat of violence (ideally, ignoring abusive fathers...).

I agree that probably a high percentage of women in the sex trade are victims of sexual abuse and their choice to go into prostitution wasn't exactly 'free'. But we are talking about an act that is illegal in most of the west. Also prostitution is not unique to the west obviously and the worst of the sex trade exists in muslim societies just as it does in the west.

I hope you did not miss the whole point of my post though by taking "choose to dress/act sexy" to mean engaging in 'sex work'.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

I have pointed out numerous democcratic Islamic states which are all the largest Islamic states in the world. Yet you continue to ignore that fact and bring up corrupt countries where the populations are not even 1/2 of the nations I listed.

The nations you listed still have strict as hell laws that will get you executed.

Why dont you bring up some examples rather than just assume?

Then bring up the number of deaths sentences carried out by each of those nations.

You are posting with no facts and no knowledge. Just assumption.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: yllus
Sorry guys, I'm as big a critic of religion as anyone, but little to none of that is accurate.

Those may be cultural values for regions in which Islam is popular, but they are not Islamic values as dictated by the Koran. And the Koran is law (literally).

If you feel beholden to consider Islam the enemy, remember that it's best to actually and literally know thy enemy. Not what you've heard about your enemy via e-mail chain letters.

Have you read the Koran?

?Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will? (2:223)

?Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge (beat) them? (4:34)

 

[f95toli]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: yllus
Sorry guys, I'm as big a critic of religion as anyone, but little to none of that is accurate.

Those may be cultural values for regions in which Islam is popular, but they are not Islamic values as dictated by the Koran. And the Koran is law (literally).

If you feel beholden to consider Islam the enemy, remember that it's best to actually and literally know thy enemy. Not what you've heard about your enemy via e-mail chain letters.

Have you read the Koran?

?Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will? (2:223)

?Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge (beat) them? (4:34)

Have you read the bible? Or the Tora?
ALL the major religions are oppressive to women by modern standards, and -as I pointed out above- both the passages you quote are in agreement with the ways the laws in both the US and Europe up until just over 100 years ago. Moreover, that the wife should obey her husband was a part of the christian wedding wovs up until quite recently (and still is in some places).
So what you are refering to has nothing to do with Islam a such, it is just that the Koran was written 1300 years ago and back then these were accepted "truths" all over the world.

 

[Jhhnn]

My favorite part of this whole song and dance is that the Fundie Christian American Wingnuts invaded and destroyed one of a few secular regimes in the ME, to "protect" the Ultra-fundie Saudis and the Apartheid Israelis, and are now supporting the most Fundie Muslim faction, the Shia, in the Iraqi civil war, which they instigated...

Having established a complete cranio-rectal interface, progress is now defined as squeezing the shoulders in, too...

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

I have pointed out numerous democcratic Islamic states which are all the largest Islamic states in the world. Yet you continue to ignore that fact and bring up corrupt countries where the populations are not even 1/2 of the nations I listed.

The nations you listed still have strict as hell laws that will get you executed.

Why dont you bring up some examples rather than just assume?

Then bring up the number of deaths sentences carried out by each of those nations.

You are posting with no facts and no knowledge. Just assumption.

You dont have to kill too many people in order to keep the masses in line.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
But the religion of peace is a loving religion

No wonder there are so many suicide bombers.

With a religion like that the only peace is in death.

Now say that again without sounding like a wide-eyed fanatic.

Seriously, you sound disturbingly like one of those guys who's always releasing videos to Al-Jazeera. Me, on the other hand, I'm opposed to radical lunatics regardless of whether or not they are the "wrong" religion or not...I find this obsession with Islam (as opposed to Islamic fanatics, or ALL fanatics) pretty stupid.

I do not obsess over the religion of peace.

I only tell it like I see it.

The religion of peace can not hold its domination over people without fear, intimidation and martyrdom.

The religon of peace and 1400 catholicism have much in common.

I have pointed out numerous democcratic Islamic states which are all the largest Islamic states in the world. Yet you continue to ignore that fact and bring up corrupt countries where the populations are not even 1/2 of the nations I listed.

The nations you listed still have strict as hell laws that will get you executed.

Why dont you bring up some examples rather than just assume?

Then bring up the number of deaths sentences carried out by each of those nations.

You are posting with no facts and no knowledge. Just assumption.

You dont have to kill too many people in order to keep the masses in line.

uhm they are democratic nations the largest muslim nations...

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: jrenz
Uh oh! Here comes Craig yet again to post more "It's all America's fault!" crap. Really, are you capable of anything else?

he's one of the best posters on P&N.

 

[IGBT]

..wouldn't hillary look great in a burka??