Word of Warning About 7900GTO

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: videopho
"I don't think a company can sell a product as New once it's already been sold. It can sell a product as Used or Refurbished, but not New. "

I'm no legal expert but it is a law in many states.
If I recall Fry's was hit big time wth the law several years back for making that practice.

It varies from state-to-state, but selling a refurbished item as "new" would presumptively violate California's Business and Professsions Code Sec. 17200-17210

Since, eVGA is headquartered in California, the law would expose them to some liability if they actually were selling refurbished cards as new. All the more reason why I don't believe these cards are refurbished.


Edited For Clarity See post below.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Since, eVGA is headquartered in California, the law exposes them to some liability.

... except what if these are not used/refurbished/previously owned?

I think the "evidence" is pointing more towards dumping cards that didn't make the speed grade and were just sitting around, combined with Nvidia telling them to dump older cores because newer ones were coming. All this talk about these cards being refurbished is just plain speculation. based on a few people not being to overclock as high as they want, and those stickers on some of the boxes.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Since, eVGA is headquartered in California, the law exposes them to some liability.

... except what if these are not used/refurbished/previously owned?

I think the "evidence" is pointing more towards dumping cards that didn't make the speed grade and were just sitting around, combined with Nvidia telling them to dump older cores because newer ones were coming. All this talk about these cards being refurbished is just plain speculation. based on a few people not being to overclock as high as they want, and those stickers on some of the boxes.

The stickers on the boxes are typical management decision - to save some bucks, in their minds: "why should we throw away all these boxes? Slap a sticker and get them going".

It's sad but true. And if you're the one to raise the "issue", next time they cut manpower you could be on the top of the "performance issue" list.
They normally want drones that obey (get the job done!) and not people thinking what's best for the customer if that costs money.

If you work in a large corporation, you're going to see such decisions oftenly. This is a typical Dilbert comic.....

 

[hmorphone]

Originally posted by: videopho
Am I sensing "a feeling of jealous envy (especially of an inferior rival)" by reading these posts?

I doubt it. That uneasy feeling is probably just constipation

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Raider1284
People just expected WAY too much out of this card and the rumor that it was just a relabelled GTX caused it. Like people were saying they wouldnt sell prefectly good GTXs at this price. And even if these dont overclock to the GTX speeds, they still perform quite well.

French benchmarks, if you guys havent seen this yet:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/639-3/comparatif-gpu-dx9-200-350.html

No you miss the point. A cheaper $240 x1900xt beats a GTX so if these GTO cards can't even make GTX's speeds and they cost more ($250) and have high potential to fail outright they are a poor value to say the least. Samsung memory on them is faulty by definition if it can't run at rated speeds. How long will they last underclocked in hopes of pushing defective products out the door? Who knows? But it's risky and a poorer value compared to competition. Even the GT's are a better value IMO as thier mem is not defective.

Both My GTs ($226AR months ago) clock past GTX levels. Good luck maintianing that with this GTO card. And the GTX was never a good deal $250 is about right for it. The GTO should be about $210 considering..

 

[nitromullet]

The stickers on the boxes are typical management decision - to save some bucks, in their minds: "why should we throw away all these boxes? Slap a sticker and get them going".

It's sad but true. And if you're the one to raise the "issue", next time they cut manpower you could be on the top of the "performance issue" list. They normally want drones that obey (get the job done!) and not people thinking what's best for the customer if that costs money.

If you work in a large corporation, you're going to see such decisions oftenly. This is a typical Dilbert comic.....

There is nothing wrong with doing this IMO. There is no reason for them to get new boxes printed just to sell a few oddball cards. Even my full price GTXes came with "HDCP" stickers on the box covering up where it says "GDDR3" underneath it. I guess the HDCP capability is more noteworthy than the fact that it has GDDR3 RAM.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Originally posted by: hmorphone

Originally posted by: videopho
Am I sensing "a feeling of jealous envy (especially of an inferior rival)" by reading these posts?

I doubt it. That uneasy feeling is probably just constipation

lol a ha ha ha

Am I sensing "a feeling of jealous envy (especially of an inferior rival)" by reading these posts?

What a bunch of bull. Don't choke on your own words.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

No you miss the point. A cheaper $240 x1900xt beats a GTX so if these GTO cards can't even make GTX's speeds and they cost more ($250) and have high potential to fail outright they are a poor value to say the least. Samsung memory on them is faulty by definition if it can't run at rated speeds. How long will they last underclocked in hopes of pushing defective products out the door? Who knows? But it's risky and a poorer value compared to competition. Even the GT's are a better value IMO as thier mem is not defective.

hate to break it to you but the x1900xt 256 is NOT faster than a 7900gtx/gto. as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Zebo
No you miss the point. A cheaper $240 x1900xt beats a GTX so if these GTO cards can't even make GTX's speeds and they cost more ($250) and have high potential to fail outright they are a poor value to say the least. Samsung memory on them is faulty by definition if it can't run at rated speeds. How long will they last underclocked in hopes of pushing defective products out the door? Who knows? But it's risky and a poorer value compared to competition. Even the GT's are a better value IMO as thier mem is not defective.

Both My GTs ($226AR months ago) clock past GTX levels. Good luck maintianing that with this GTO card. And the GTX was never a good deal $250 is about right for it. The GTO should be about $210 considering..

:thumbsup:

 

[lopri]

I am failing to understand this thread as well as the linked threads in other forums. The only possible issue I can see is whether the card was refurbished or not and I haven't seen any proof. EVGA is at the top of GPU vendor list along with BFG and I seriously doubt that they'd do such practice. As far as the memory goes, if the memory does what the spec says (1320MHz effective) and the card performs as advertised, not to mention the warranty, what is the problem? If I'm not misunderstanding this card will give 7900GT / 7950GT a run for the money. 7900GT is a better deal because the 7900GTO's memory can't do 900MHz (1.1ns) is more than ignorant. Many 'good' GTX fail to do 900MHz memory with 'good' memory ICs. There could be many reasons for that and that's why NV specified GTX @650/800 as a safety net. Well, this is what EVERY IC/ASIC manufacturers as well as vendors do.

If I remember correctly, X1900XTX has also 1.1ns Samsung memory just like 7900GTX. So, XTX/GTX that can't do 900MHz memory are all faulty/underclocked/dud products? My X1950XTX's memory can't seem to do 1100MHz reliably (Samsung's spec - ATI guarantees 1000MHz), so is it faulty 'by definition'?

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
hate to break it to you but the x1900xt 256 is NOT faster than a 7900gtx/gto. as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

Please link a review that shows a 7900GTO beating the X1900XT 256 pretty handily.

The ONE review I've seen shows they are about on par with eachother...the margin being about 5fps for most games and wins going back and forth(this is at high res with AA and AF turned up).

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

hate to break it to you but the x1900xt 256 is NOT faster than a 7900gtx/gto. as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

No?

Read this:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/639-3/comparatif-gpu-dx9-200-350.html

Or just Cookie Monster's post here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=3&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

I'd say both are very close.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

No you miss the point. A cheaper $240 x1900xt beats a GTX so if these GTO cards can't even make GTX's speeds and they cost more ($250) and have high potential to fail outright they are a poor value to say the least. Samsung memory on them is faulty by definition if it can't run at rated speeds. How long will they last underclocked in hopes of pushing defective products out the door? Who knows? But it's risky and a poorer value compared to competition. Even the GT's are a better value IMO as thier mem is not defective.

hate to break it to you but the x1900xt 256 is NOT faster than a 7900gtx/gto. as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

The only thing you've shed light on for me is your ignorance.

256MB x1900xt not only beats GTO it's beats GTX as well which GTO can't evem get to with defective mem on it.

Count them. HL2, DarkM, FEAR, Oblivion vs BF2, Q4, LoMAC, COD2 both even in farCry

Close huh? 4:4? Not quite, cause while they are mostly even in all tests the total ass woopin IN Oblivion Geforce cards take - playing slide shows to even a cheap x1900GT - really puts X1900XT over the top.

Add Overclocking it's game set match on performance. - 100Mhz core and mem is the norm for x1900XT. Good luck getting any GTX to 750/900. More like 50 on core and 50 on mem is normal.

 

[Zebo]

as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

I don't know. If you value performance period, no, x1900xt is better bang for the buck. It's cheaper and faster.

If you value good drivers, driver that don't take over 200MB on boot, quieter and cooler then GTO is a better bargain.

I wont buy an ATI card. I don't like ATI everyone knows it but I recognise faster when I see it especially in popular games like oblivion.

 

[vhx]

No, they are not used or refurbished cards, nor are they cards that had issues. They are new cards.

The sticker on the box doesn't mean that the card has been refurbished or used. eVGA has used stickers on some boxes since back when they sold Geforce4 Ti's.

 

[blckgrffn]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
First of all, I don't think this really should reflect badly on Nvidia or even their board partners. It's mainly because Samsung's GDDR3 isn't hitting rated clockspeeds.

You get what you pay for, and we've all become a bit spoiled. There is no guarantee of overclocking, and people who overclock these cards to death should not get new ones -- a 7900GTO is still a damn fine card at $250.

People bitching because these cards won't reach the RAM's "rated" speeds are ignoring the whole premise of speed binning, and the fact that they are buying a card rated at a certain speed. There is no guarantee that 1.1ns RAM can do 1.1ns speeds!!!

Why shouldn't we get new ones? It's covered by EVGA's warranty

And Zebo, saying the GTX should have always been under $250 doesn't make sense. In the context of sub $250 x1900xtx's that are widely available without rebate, maybe. But the ultra high end has always been ~$400+ for the last 3-4 years, it would be unrealistic to expect anything less.

Just because it doesn't stomp the x1900xt doesn't change the fact it is nvidia's flagship card

 

[430752]

reading this whole thread, I think a lot of people may not understand simple manufacturing. I mean, this gto is one of the hottest cards out right now. I've no clue how many they sold, but do you think they had alll these hundreds? thousands? already printed up and ready to go as gtx's and then realized a memory problem (of somone else's doing) might cause problems?

That may explain the first hundred or two or three, and then they wouldn't be refurbs, but rather new product simply not being advertised nor sold for something they couldn't live up to. So they're being honest and people are upset.

Now, once those first hundred or two or three (or etc.) are sold, what is the company to do with the batch of samsung memory laying around, the dies they've struck, the boards preprinted, etc. Meaning once they set up a manufacturing process, they make money by running x,000's of cards to recoup their costs. the costs have already been incurred in terms of tooling up for production, the individual compenents being less than the whoel cost. So, they're stuck with a bunch of bad samsung memory, of which they probably bought a boat load of. They can sue samsung maybe, and maybe they will, or more likely, samsung gave then back part or all of their money and said keep the chips. So, evga has the preprinted boards, the memory chips, the dies, the whole shebang to product a card, just not the one they though they'd produce.

What would you do? I know I'd do just about what they did, and print 'em out until I ran out of the compenents to make them, then I wouldn't reorder snce direct10x coming. I'd also go to my bean counter and ask what failure rate I could expect in order to back a lifetime warranty (assuming vast majority not defective and those that are won't be returned on 100% rate). I'd set that amount of cards aside for returns, or otherwise set money aside to "repair" by sending back a gtx card once my "warranty supply" ran out.

And what's not to like? As others have said, you bought a gto card rated to run at a certain rate. You didn't buy a gtx and can't expect it. By the way, the gto as-is performs quite nicely, thank you. And, most will get lucky enough to have a pretty-much gtx card if they do want to risk it. but I bet no warranty on the OC or flashing of bios to a gtx spec.

I dunno, I'm in, and cancelled my 1900xt 256 order.

curt j.

 

[Zebo]

Not always - until the cheap x1900's came then the GTX price was way out of line (and still is) GTO is about right..a little high considering the risk.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: 430752
but I bet no warranty on the OC or flashing of bios to a gtx spec.

curt j.

Actually, damage from overclocking is covered by EVGA's warranty so your only risk is the shipping cost back to EVGA.

You have to add that fact into the value equation.

 

[Elfear]

Let me add my .02 for those wondering what the fuss is about. The reason I thought this thread was worth making is twofold:

1) For those who want to get a cheap card and oc (don't we all love that ), this isn't looking like the best deal because of the dodgy ram. By dodgy I mean that they more than likely came from speed-binned GTXs, not that they don't run at advertised speeds.

2) The thread I linked too showed two or three people getting cards that were DOA or cards that died soon after installation. While every card series has it's DOAs, it seemed like an unusually high amount. Whether this is due to the GTO's coming from the GTX's that were having issues in the past (not specifically refurbished cards) or just a run of bad luck, I don't know.

I don't believe that EVGA would sell refurbished cards as that would be a very risky method for making a little extra cash. Besides that, from the thread over at XS, it looks like some of the MSI cards were having issues too. But I do think buyers should know all the details before they fork over the dough thinking they're going to get a $250 GTX.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: 430752
reading this whole thread, I think a lot of people may not understand simple manufacturing. I mean, this gto is one of the hottest cards out right now. I've no clue how many they sold, but do you think they had alll these hundreds? thousands? already printed up and ready to go as gtx's and then realized a memory problem (of somone else's doing) might cause problems?

That may explain the first hundred or two or three, and then they wouldn't be refurbs, but rather new product simply not being advertised nor sold for something they couldn't live up to. So they're being honest and people are upset.

Now, once those first hundred or two or three (or etc.) are sold, what is the company to do with the batch of samsung memory laying around, the dies they've struck, the boards preprinted, etc. Meaning once they set up a manufacturing process, they make money by running x,000's of cards to recoup their costs. the costs have already been incurred in terms of tooling up for production, the individual compenents being less than the whoel cost. So, they're stuck with a bunch of bad samsung memory, of which they probably bought a boat load of. They can sue samsung maybe, and maybe they will, or more likely, samsung gave then back part or all of their money and said keep the chips. So, evga has the preprinted boards, the memory chips, the dies, the whole shebang to product a card, just not the one they though they'd produce.

What would you do? I know I'd do just about what they did, and print 'em out until I ran out of the compenents to make them, then I wouldn't reorder snce direct10x coming. I'd also go to my bean counter and ask what failure rate I could expect in order to back a lifetime warranty (assuming vast majority not defective and those that are won't be returned on 100% rate). I'd set that amount of cards aside for returns, or otherwise set money aside to "repair" by sending back a gtx card once my "warranty supply" ran out.

And what's not to like? As others have said, you bought a gto card rated to run at a certain rate. You didn't buy a gtx and can't expect it. By the way, the gto as-is performs quite nicely, thank you. And, most will get lucky enough to have a pretty-much gtx card if they do want to risk it. but I bet no warranty on the OC or flashing of bios to a gtx spec.

I dunno, I'm in, and cancelled my 1900xt 256 order.

curt j.

All good points Curt but that still does'nt change the fact X1900XT is a little cheaper and faster so you'd have to have other reasons to choose GTO at this point. And thats fine. The hope was GTX or better for X1900XT price... Giving equitable performance priced where the GTX should be at in the first place. So we are a little let down and venting. And I wish you guys would stop with the "you did'nt buy a GTX" no one with any sense did, they bought GT's. GTX were a rip off then and even more so now compared to competition.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: 430752
reading this whole thread, I think a lot of people may not understand simple manufacturing. I mean, this gto is one of the hottest cards out right now. I've no clue how many they sold, but do you think they had alll these hundreds? thousands? already printed up and ready to go as gtx's and then realized a memory problem (of somone else's doing) might cause problems?

That may explain the first hundred or two or three, and then they wouldn't be refurbs, but rather new product simply not being advertised nor sold for something they couldn't live up to. So they're being honest and people are upset.

Now, once those first hundred or two or three (or etc.) are sold, what is the company to do with the batch of samsung memory laying around, the dies they've struck, the boards preprinted, etc. Meaning once they set up a manufacturing process, they make money by running x,000's of cards to recoup their costs. the costs have already been incurred in terms of tooling up for production, the individual compenents being less than the whoel cost. So, they're stuck with a bunch of bad samsung memory, of which they probably bought a boat load of. They can sue samsung maybe, and maybe they will, or more likely, samsung gave then back part or all of their money and said keep the chips. So, evga has the preprinted boards, the memory chips, the dies, the whole shebang to product a card, just not the one they though they'd produce.

What would you do? I know I'd do just about what they did, and print 'em out until I ran out of the compenents to make them, then I wouldn't reorder snce direct10x coming. I'd also go to my bean counter and ask what failure rate I could expect in order to back a lifetime warranty (assuming vast majority not defective and those that are won't be returned on 100% rate). I'd set that amount of cards aside for returns, or otherwise set money aside to "repair" by sending back a gtx card once my "warranty supply" ran out.

And what's not to like? As others have said, you bought a gto card rated to run at a certain rate. You didn't buy a gtx and can't expect it. By the way, the gto as-is performs quite nicely, thank you. And, most will get lucky enough to have a pretty-much gtx card if they do want to risk it. but I bet no warranty on the OC or flashing of bios to a gtx spec.

I dunno, I'm in, and cancelled my 1900xt 256 order.

curt j.

All good points Curt but that still does'nt change the fact X1900XT is a little cheaper and faster so you'd have to have other reasons to choose GTO at this point. And thats fine. The hope was GTX or better for X1900XT price... Giving equitable performance priced where the GTX should be at in the first place. So we are a little let down and venting. And I wish you guys would stop with the "you did'nt buy a GTX" no one with any sense did, they bought GT's. GTX were a rip off then and even more so now compared to competition.

i agree the 7900gtx is a total rip off for the price.
BUT do you mind proving the 7900gto is faster than a single x1900xt (both at stock)

 

[JBT]

They seem find if you run them at stock or OC just a little bit.. I don't see what the fuss is about...

 

[emilyek]

Mine's finally up and running.

I put it in my Dual Sata2 and they did not play nicely. I was running AGP before, and I thought that adjusting bios settings after installation would be all I would need to do.

I was wrong. I had to reformat. (Twice actually, because SP2 got corrupted and borked everything.)

It seems fine so far. I fired up a little Oblivion and it ran nicely. Currently installing HL2 again so I can do some more tests.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
hate to break it to you but the x1900xt 256 is NOT faster than a 7900gtx/gto. as much as i love ati the truth is the truth at 250 the 7900gto (at stock) is a better bargain then the x1900xt 256.

Please link a review that shows a 7900GTO beating the X1900XT 256 pretty handily.

The ONE review I've seen shows they are about on par with eachother...the margin being about 5fps for most games and wins going back and forth(this is at high res with AA and AF turned up).

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2833&p=4

here it shows the 7950 gt (clo0cked lower than the 7900gto) beating the x1900xt 256 most of the time. guess what a 7900gto will do //////!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!