Would you give up the USA/Canada for increased liberty?

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Here's a few assumptions:
- people basically want good government that reflects their views. To libertarians, this might mean a small, unobtrusive government, low taxes, gun rights etc. To leftists, this might mean a proactive government that regulates the market for abuses, provides universal healthcare etc.
- governments are very different beasts depending on the size and homogeneity of the population - China's central government is nothing like Iceland's.
- Governments of smaller populations are inherently more accountable, legitimate and represent the views of the population better
- Governments of homogeneous populations would better reflect the population's views, since there is more likely to be some kind of broad consensus.


So if you agree with those, the question then is: would you give up the US/Canada if it meant increased liberties? The idea is that splitting up the US/Canada into a bunch of large countries that group people with shared views and history and produce local governments that reflect the views of the population much better.

Here is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

Another possibility is something like:

1. New England + Maritimes
2. Great Lakes region (Washington, new york, toronto, and chicago)
3. Midwest + Canadian prairies
4. The South
5. Texas and the south west
6. Pacific coast (California to BC)
7. Quebec
8. The North (Alaska, NWT, northern parts of Canadian prairie provinces)

Assume each of these combines into a septate country (and currency), but that multiple citizenships are allowed, borders are minimal (like the US-Canada border) and there is free trade between all the countries.

If all this meant you could live in a country that reflects your views, would you be up for it? For example west-coast leftists would get universal healthcare, strong environmental laws, etc while Texas libertarians would get all the guns they want, a tiny government and very low taxes, etc.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
If all this meant you could live in a country that reflects your views, would you be up for it? For example west-coast leftists would get universal healthcare, strong environmental laws, etc while Texas libertarians would get all the guns they want, a tiny government and very low taxes, etc.

It wouldn't work out because all of the leftists would leave their country due to the high taxes and bad job market and go to the libertarian countries. But then, once there, not knowing what the heck was wrong with the place they were from, they would start clamoring for socialism again.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
The Great Lakes region sounds pretty awesome, but to be honest we in Ontario get a lot of out being in union with Alberta... Not so much the rest of the country. The balkanization of North America would probably just lead to various regions jacking up prices for the others.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It's an interesting proposition, but generally I'd prefer not. I've a feeling that in spawning the South off as a country I'd be losing more in freedom than I'd gain.
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,070
1
0
The chances of US merging with Canada is higher than US and Canada splitting into smaller countries. Think big. Think globalisation.
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
0
0
It's an interesting proposition, but generally I'd prefer not. I've a feeling that in spawning the South off as a country I'd be losing more in freedom than I'd gain.

Yeah I would imagine the South banning porn, liquor, the internet, etc. TV would be mostly sermons as everything else would be banned. There would probably be curfews and a hunting season for immigrants\minorities. The wealthy 10% would be tax exempt and things like porn/liquor/etc. would be legal (or at least overlooked) in their "private clubs".

Although tobacco and fire arms would be dirt cheap. :thumbsup:
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
It wouldn't work out because all of the leftists would leave their country due to the high taxes and bad job market and go to the libertarian countries. But then, once there, not knowing what the heck was wrong with the place they were from, they would start clamoring for socialism again.

Is that kind of like how life is better in the more free market USA than it is in evil socialist Scandinavian countries that have national health care? Perhaps all of the poor people in the libertarian countries would flee for nations where the wealthiest top 5% aren't allowed to have all of the wealth. What many capitalist dogmatists don't realize is that it's very possible to have a de facto slave society under real capitalism.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
It's an interesting proposition, but generally I'd prefer not. I've a feeling that in spawning the South off as a country I'd be losing more in freedom than I'd gain.

I feel the same. I would certainly consider it, but I'd want to see the rules first.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
It wouldn't work out because all of the leftists would leave their country due to the high taxes and bad job market and go to the libertarian countries. But then, once there, not knowing what the heck was wrong with the place they were from, they would start clamoring for socialism again.

More likely all the small-government personal-responsibility folks wouldn't be able to figure out why they weren't getting free roads paid for by California anymore!

And with only 8 countries, there isn't likely to be one that a fringe-case like you would like
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Well I'd have no place to go. Liberals are too liberal, conservatives too conservative, and Libertarians bat shit crazy. I like things just the way they are now except for corruption at the top where we have best congress money can buy and running unsustainable debt.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
The more generalized version of this IMO is that *any* power that gets too large, tends to get 'corrupted', to use a one-word description, in some harmful ways.

That doesn't just mean it's bad for 'China to rule the world', but the US, the UK, France - anyone to 'rule the world'.

That the protection for freedom is to keep some distributed global power - even if we do have some global *cooperation* for good things like a stronger UN.

A problem is, every nation does everything it can to get more for itself - more power (over others also), more wealth (taking from others also), and so on.

Some do better at that than others, but the long-term trend is towards the most powerful becoming even more powerful.

If one nation splits up its power, it might help freedom for those people at the time, but it can create a vacuum filled by a rival who doesn't. The thing to note is how because of the issues I'm mentioning the US *isn't* going to consider any such split, nor are most nations. Nations who do split up are likely to do so because of outside pressure - Germany, Korea, Vietnam for example, all split by the competing 'cold war' sides, two of the three reunited so far, Korea quite possibly joining them in a bit.

A better question is how we keep some spreading out of power in the world?

And how we do so peacefully - since multiple powers in the world competing for more tend to see war used again and again, since someone thinks they'll benefit.

There are always pressures for there to be 'a few' benefiting by exploiting others - whether it's a power exploiting other nations, or groups in a country exploiting other people - the minority Sunnis in Iraq who used to do so, the minority whites in South Africa who used to do so, the whiter minorities in Latin American countries who tend to do so, owning most everything - or just classes of rich who tend to control the country's policies for their benefit.

We could use more policies that limit the abuses of power, for greater rights for everyone against exploitation.

On occasion, the exploited get a chance to improve things - but that's far too unreliable. A few examples - in Korea, there was a very corrupt, exploitative system of family-based wealth and power controlling the government; somehow a reformist got elected President at the same time an economic crisis forced some changes, and he was able to do some reforms. Iraq had their comfortable Sunni situation changed by war against them. The US had a temporary period following the Great Depression of some reforms for the people to do better. In Tunisia and Egypt, we see rare revolt. In Iran, after 25 years of a Shah, we saw it replaced with a new tyranny. Marcos executing his beloved opponent blatantly and the US being willing to not keep him in force by power helped change there. But it's not reliable - the entrenched and corrupted powers usually are fine.

The OP asks, would splitting up power be a good idea; I'd say a question he should ask is, why is that pretty much impossible to do, if it were a good idea?

Save234
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
Highly doubt that. Highly. See, without CA and the liberals it feeds, the southern border with Mexico would be locked down tight, and all illegals would be deported to Kalifornia - because they love them being there. Given the much reduced road traffic, and the large influx of jobs available from said deported illegals, the small government entities would have plenty of money to hire all the out of work Kalifornians who would then do the jobs they supposedly wouldn't do when the illegals were working them.

Plus, all the money from the water and electricity Kalifornia would be buying would easily support maintaining the roads. Kalifornia liberals obviously don't like the killing of animals, so, we don't need to sell meat to them either. And of course, all that corn is farmed with dirty diesel tractors, wouldn't need to sell that to them either. Of course, with the reduction in corn and grain usage, and the total freedom from Kalifornia's CARB, we would have B20 diesel and be able to easily use EU's awesome Clean Diesel's. Kalifornia of course would be buying small car $60k Chevy Volt's that get 37mpg while we'd be buying large sedan $30k Clean Diesel Taurii (?) that get 50mpg.

Lets see....how would the small gov states suffer??? Well, Kalifornia would of course close down those ports for the reduction in Chinese goods they'd not send us in retaliation...but then, that's a good thing for US, so......

Overall, I'd be comfortable with that - can we export Chicago and Crook County though to Kalifornia? Say Yes and it's a Deal.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
I'd give up my American citizenship in a heartbeat if I knew and could speak German fluently to live in Germany. Why?
No harassment from police for speeding, driving aggressively, etc
No harassment from jealous people for trivial things like driving a nicer car than them
No stress about owning nice things and having to worry about people doing stupid shit to it
No pressure to conform to standards like whatever stupid fad is in, whether it's clothes, TV shows, movies, etc
No stress about worrying about health care, or saving up college funds if you have kids
No stress about letting your kids play on the street, with other kids, or riding the city bus or tram
No stress from nosy neighbors, busy-bodies
No inferiority complex, no self entitlement mentality that affects most in the USA
No growth hormones in meats, vegetables, dairy, etc
No genetically modified animals or vegetables
Drive as fast as you can afford to have a car that goes fast on the Autobahn
No need for SUV's or trucks because of their better roads/infrastructure
Ride a train from practically any city without needing a car
Ride a bicycle anywhere
Walk practically anywhere
Travel to different countries instead of different states or counties
2 Continents within a couple hours flight
High quality social services
Friendly people (real authentic friendly, not fake I want your money friendly)
Etc, etc

So many reasons to list.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Wow. I've been working on a story/book like that for a while. I had no idea someone had already written it so closely to my own arguments. Will have to check it out.

As for your post, yes, I fully support it. America is done...well past done actually. The specifics of the different regions is up for debate however.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
Cheap gas helps the economy. :sneaky:

It was cheaper before Bush decided to rape Afghanistan and the middle east after the government he was supposed to be in control of coincidentally let 9/11 happen like they didn't know it was going to, so his cronies could pump more of your money into the military industrial complex, while giving his buddies that own corporations tax breaks for outsourcing more jobs overseas so the shares of their own companies would go up from more profit by using cheaper labor, while letting Wall Street speculate on commodities like oil that caused gas to go from $1.66 a gallon in 2004, to over $2 then $3+ a gallon after using Hurricane Katrina as an excuse to gouge everyone, and letting the oil companies & Wall St. continue to gouge everyone just like the banks were allowed to gouge anyone who wanted a loan until the whole economy crashed worldwide and then the oil companies temporarily bring back gas prices down to what they were right after Hurricane Katrina like that's going to help.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
Here's a few assumptions:
- people basically want good government that reflects their views. To libertarians, this might mean a small, unobtrusive government, low taxes, gun rights etc. To leftists, this might mean a proactive government that regulates the market for abuses, provides universal healthcare etc.
- governments are very different beasts depending on the size and homogeneity of the population - China's central government is nothing like Iceland's.
- Governments of smaller populations are inherently more accountable, legitimate and represent the views of the population better
- Governments of homogeneous populations would better reflect the population's views, since there is more likely to be some kind of broad consensus.


So if you agree with those, the question then is: would you give up the US/Canada if it meant increased liberties? The idea is that splitting up the US/Canada into a bunch of large countries that group people with shared views and history and produce local governments that reflect the views of the population much better.

Here is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

Another possibility is something like:

1. New England + Maritimes
2. Great Lakes region (Washington, new york, toronto, and chicago)
3. Midwest + Canadian prairies
4. The South
5. Texas and the south west
6. Pacific coast (California to BC)
7. Quebec
8. The North (Alaska, NWT, northern parts of Canadian prairie provinces)

Assume each of these combines into a septate country (and currency), but that multiple citizenships are allowed, borders are minimal (like the US-Canada border) and there is free trade between all the countries.

If all this meant you could live in a country that reflects your views, would you be up for it? For example west-coast leftists would get universal healthcare, strong environmental laws, etc while Texas libertarians would get all the guns they want, a tiny government and very low taxes, etc.

This was the original point of Federalism, that each state would be its own republic with its own values. This is the way our country is supposed to function.
 

YoungGun21

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,546
1
81
This wouldn't work for several reasons.

1) People would not want to just get up and move. They have lives and jobs right now where they are.

2) Companies would move. Obviously they would go to the place they would profit the most or be paying the least amount of taxes.
 
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